What’s the difference between a toxic relationship and abuse?

[Justwondering3]

Not that you should stay in either cases.

A toxic relationship implies responsibility on both sides. An abusive one side. (I know there are 2 people in an abusive relationship).

When I was in court the judge said one time “we” were in a toxic relationship not that “I” was in an abusive one. Then went on to say he had abusive behaviours and denied contact with dc. Toxic implies blame on both sides doesn’t it. Victim blaming.

Then in that case yes my people pleasing made me have a baby in a round about way. It kept me in the relationship for 3 years of her life and she witnessed terrible things because of it. My behaviour though was survival, I did what I did to survive a person who overthrew my ability to cope and rationalise.

From the outside thats toxic to the child. But the judge failed to protect us both going forward. He confined his abuse to the relationship.

Me being a people pleaser and ignoring my own feelings is toxic to myself it is independent to the abuse he dished out

Not from the point of view of your children. The dynamic of one person being abusive and the other person ignoring and minimising their own feelings is a dynamic which is toxic to children. Whether each of your parts would have been played out separately of the other isn't relevant: they weren't, in the instance that the judge was judging.

Accepting that your part played a role in the continuation of a harmful dynamic isn't the same as blaming you. The abuse is the fault of the abuser. An abuser can't abuse unless someone is there to be their victim. The victim's behaviour could be heinous or perfect, that's not the point. The environment that is created is toxic, for as long as it lasts, and that's not a comment on you or what you did. It's a comment on the environment that naturally surrounds an abuser.

Yes and that is the one reason I left, for the sake of my daughter. I believed until seeking therapy that I was the one to blame. I left despite feeling absolutely awful for him but. I told him that I needed to go for the sake of our daughter. I couldn’t let her witness her mum falling to the floor in tears anymore and having panic attacks. If I stayed she would not have had a mum. He made me want to end my life I was so shamed of myself. Little did I know the extent of the reality. It was extremely toxic to be part of that family.

The judge concluded after 3 years at court that he was happy the relationship was over. She remained with me for those 3 years and had no contact with her dad. She was happy that the toxic environment had gone. I guess if it happens in his next relationship then that’s another case.

Now I think about it @Watchkeys judges do take children away from mothers who refuse to leave the relationship and keep exposing them. The abuse is not there fault but they none the less expose there children to the “toxic” relationship even if they can’t leave.

I think it's so good for a child, in the long run, to witness their mother do what you've done, and leave. I firmly believe that if my mum had left my dad, I'd have had a much healthier path in relationships in my own life.

Your daughter is lucky to have such a brave mum.

I wanted better for her which is what sets me apart from him who wanted better for himself. Being a mum is powerful and they know it.

This thread has been powerful for me this evening. I’m so sorry you’ve been through this OP. Can I ask you. If none of this had been physical, all emotional/verbal, and you’d given as good as you got at times when you were provoked, would you call that abusive? It’s definitely toxic.

@ItsCalledAConversation it’s difficult in some cases to work out who is the victim and who is the abuser. I guess at the end of the day does it really matter if it’s toxic it’s not worth staying in. I do know abusers like to provoke on purpose. If they get a rise of any kind they have won. Mine I guess would provoke me till I broke crying but on the odd occasion I would shout back. That would be very rare. My flight or fight response which I learnt as a child was to freeze or fawn. What you do in return isn’t really important. It’s that they got the reaction in the first place and that’s what they are looking for. Then they got you like you are doing now and questioning yourself and your reality. They can and will bring out the very worst of you.

Most abusers can not self reflect so they would probably not be asking your question, they are right and that’s that.

I think that what @Watchkeys said earlier your own behaviour is a good place to start. If a relationship has got you questioning then look at how it’s making you behave. A healthy relationship really should be bringing out the best in you, a toxic one the worst. You can work out the abuse later on. But I think I’ve come to realise that even in abusive relationships the blame becomes a little muddy. Don’t continue in a relationship if it’s making you behave in a manner you don’t want to. You don’t need to be in the relationship, it should add to your life. We all have good and bad parts to ourselves, why be with someone who brings out the bad that hurts ourself.

I use good and bad very loosely. Its not bad to people please or have empathy or to fight back against injustice, anger isn’t a bad emotion. I wasn’t for example bad to want to please him. I hope that makes sense. I’m not sure of the right way to word it.

I understand your problem with the phrasing 'toxic parental relationship', I would probably have taken it similarly - that somehow your unique pairing brought about toxicity, rather than that he is abusive and no amount of unique pairings will change that. It's misidentifying where responsibility lies. Though, the court then denies him access so it does place it where it belongs.

Why is this playing on your mind? Are you worried about him getting access again?

My ex husband, who abused me, said our relationship was toxic. Bullshit. I wanted nothing but a normal, kind, caring and loving relationship and behaved as such. There was nothing about me that was toxic. This was his attempt to shift the blame and not accept responsibility for his abusive behaviours.

I would have been absolutely broken if someone is such a position as a judge had describe it as a toxic relationship, rather than an abusive one. In fact it was only once people in authority who I respected (my manager in my case) spoke the words abusive relationship that I got the courage to think about leaving. The fog I'd been living in finally lifted. If people had been saying it was a toxic relationship I'd probably have spiralled into depression believing I must be partly responsible for the way he treated me and the kids.

@Flamingowild I think most people go into relationships wanting it to be kind caring and loving. I think the problem comes with the normal part. My ex was brought up in a family where the man got his own way by any means, that was his baseline. I was brought up by a mum who criticised me and ignored me, that’s my baseline. Our normals were very different but each was right at that point of time. I realise now both were not.

Each of us believed the other made the relationship toxic. Neither of us would admit that we were personally abusive. One of us was bigger and stronger so that shifted power his way and I was the one who backed down and shut off my own needs and growth.

Does intention come into it? My previous relationship was toxic, codependent, and ended in an attack. But I wouldn't call it abusive. I would say it ended in abuse as we stayed together. He never intended to abuse me, just coast along inside a toxic environment where we both were toxic to one another in reaction to what we were dissatisfied with.

My last relation was 100% abusive on purpose with intention.

@happysingleversary good question and I dunno lol. Doesn’t actually change the outcome but at court if you kill someone with intent it gets a longer sentence then without. Still the same outcome though as someone is dead. Maybe the abuse part is when they actually use there physical strength to win the argument. That’s abuse of there sex or there size. Maybe it’s when they have to win part. So in your relationship both lost really but the abuse part someone wins and someone backs down.

I think intent is extremely hard to define. I’ve gone through my relationship with a fine tooth comb repeatedly trying to find it and it’s just not definable. Is shouting in someone’s face more dangerous then coercing someone to not see their friends because he shouts when he drinks. I know I’m guilty of the later. Why does he get to go be happy and see his friends and drink whilst I sit and dwell on the last argument where he shouted swear words in my face when he was drunk. Who’s wrong? Both people are trying to control the other. Which action is abusive? I would say the drunk shouting but I don’t then have to stay and put up with it.

My abusive relationship was coercive control. Yes, there was some violence but it was subtle. It's complicated.

My ex I would not call abusive, but there was violence on both sides. I would call that dysfunctional.

That's how I characterise it, and thought I had a bit of insight given I experienced both.

I think intent does come into it, I think because to me abuse suggests intent.

If you leave a baby to cry the effects are damaging, cortisol, terror... however is it abusive to do it?

This is what I mean. It's about intent.

If a person is highly traumad and shuts down when an argument takes place, and so gives silent treatment, is that abuse?

I think intent is a huge part of it actually.

@happysingleversary yes I get that, I personally didn’t intend to backdown and withdraw, that’s my fight flight response. But then his fight flight is different, did he intend to have his triggered and attack.

I don’t think my ex woke in the morning and said right I’m going to hit my wife today. So I guess that makes it not intentional but still abusive. Perhaps there are other people who do wake like that tho.

My ex’s father was abusive to his mother, terribly physically abusive and drunk. The mother was a soft sensitive lady. You can imagine how that went. His second wife was a loud mouth who loved a drink and they drank and shouted and swore and disrespected each other, they woke up the next day happy as larry.

No, it's much more nuanced than that. It's also difficult to talk about online and even in person as there are usually crossed wires due to different experiences.

Sorry, I've not read all your thread.

If you got hit yes it's abuse.

Mine was more of a fight and I wouldn't call him abusive I would call us dysfunctional.

But when someone seeks to control you or hurt you that's different. And it's also a pattern I think. I think if it's a one off it's not abuse but could be a mistake. Not hitting, but silent treatment or something, could just be misjudgement.

@happysingleversary I think we are on the same page in a round about way. What’s one persons dysfunctional is another persons abusive. Depends on the people I suppose.