I have a question. Are abusers just abusive and not capable of having “normal” relationships”. Please bare with me for asking.

[Myfirstborn]

If you have “abused” another in an intimate relationship. I kind of dislike that term and prefer to say used abusive behaviours to control another. If you have manipulated, gaslighted, intimidated, scared, lied, given silent treatment etc to an intimate partner in the past does that make you “abusive”?

As in your are “abusive”, instead of you were on that occasion. Implying I guess that you are capable of non abusive relationships in the future? I would self prescribe myself as relatively normal and would not do those behaviours on another. I would feel emotions if I felt rejected but I would not project them onto another. I’d go away, process perhaps feel justified or feel crap then get over it.

Do they have a fault in this process one that is just who they are with every aspect of their life?

We get away with what we can get away with. Perhaps the teaching needs to be better at the other end. Making sure we don’t accept what people do.

Sorry haven't read the whole thread, but read Lundy Bancroft, Why Does He Do That. It's brilliant. He ran abuser programs and really gets how abusive men work.

Anger management doesn't work on abusers because they are not out of control, that's the problem. They are very much in control, they feel entitled to treat their partners how they do.

From personal experience.
My father was an abusive man whilst married to my mum. It was awful. He abused us kids verbally and physically chastised us to the point of bruising and pulling hair out.
After mum divorced him he met someone else.
Not once, ever, did he abuse this woman. He never raised his voice, slammed around, drove like a lunatic etc around her. Like he'd had a personality transplant.
My mum was timid and accepted his bullying bullshit.
He would not have got away with that with his second wife.
I think it's about opportunity. Most of my abusers used my fragility and mh to abuse me.
They spot potential victims a mile away.

I agree with this. Of course, it would be wonderful to live in a world without abuse, and it's important to educate up and coming generations that abuse is not acceptable. But whatever we do, humans will be humans, and some will abuse, in the same way that some will be extra kind, extra thoughtful, extra good at x or y or z. We're all different, and someone has to be at that far end of the 'am I an abuser' section.

We all need to be clear on what we 'should' and 'shouldn't' accept, which is, contrary to what many believe, not a moral issue. What one person thinks of as morally good isn't the same as what another person thinks is morally good, and both may have a strong and valid argument.

What leads us, as individuals, to understand what is acceptable or not, in our own lives, is whether or not it is acceptable to us. There are laws regarding extremes of behaviour, but other than that, there is no guidance apart from our own feelings, and that's the guidance we should follow.

@BittenontheBum I wonder why he felt more in control and was able to behave in the second marriage? Fragility or not you would have thought someone who was abusive would kind of continue one way or another in all relationships. But then who knows what they thinking.

@BittenontheBum I think this is rare. Was there any therapy involved?

@BittenontheBum and I am so sorry to hear what a rotten time you and your siblings had as kids because of your father. Not to mention your mum.

@BlastedPimples the thought of him having therapy is laughable tbh.
He was just free of the burden of family life I think.

@Myfirstborn it could have been any reason or no reason. She (second wife) was younger, but career driven, earned more than him etc.
Where as he wouldn't let my mum leave the house to go to a fitness class ffs. He was controlling and jealous with mum, I didn't ever see that with second wife (who I actually quite liked) .
I'm not going to try and diagnose him and I will never excuse (or forgive) what he did. He was a very flawed, emotionally unintelligent human being. IMO.

Well my first abusive ex is now completely alone. Literally every single person in his life has gone NC including three kids and five siblings, and my second ex is in the middle of divorce number four so I’d say they probably can’t help themselves.

@BittenontheBum I see this with my ex. His new partner is much more confident then me and when he met her they were career wise on a same thought level. He tried to build me up career wise. TBH it came across that he really wanted to help me in many ways. He just got so pissed off when you didn’t appreciate his efforts which in my case being the person I am had an extremely negative impact on my mental health. I’m still under the impression that he didn’t extend to put me in the gutter but it was the consequence none the less. He should have left me if I didn’t have the same dream (I should have left him for treating me so shit).

I think the new girl is a better match power wise and a better match for him. She isn’t so vulnerable as I was at the moment. He may still need to have the ego boost but she naturally gives it to him. He tried to manipulate me into the person he wanted instead of finding a person who was naturally that. But then I don’t know what goes on in his mind or behind the door.

I do know he literally tried to force me by coercively raping me to get pregnant when we first met (so to protect myself I took the pill behind his back). The new girlfriend became pregnant within the first year of meeting. She also has the same career as him and the same family dynamic.

Perhaps they just get better at meeting better matched people.

I don’t think he was capable of seeing me as the whole person I was, my strengths and my vulnerabilities, because I had both as we all do that is who I am. He saw my potential, only my benefit to him. I never knew I was able to be loved for the whole person I was. In the end my vulnerabilities became the enemy to us both.

@Myfirstborn it very much sounds like you're blaming yourself here.
Please stop.
This man raped and abused you. None of this is normal or ok. None of this is because you didn't share the same ambition.
He did that because he could and because he saw a vulnerability in you that allowed him/gave him carte blanche to continue.
Do not compare your relationship to the one he has now. You have no idea what goes on behind closed doors.
I'm very sorry it happened to you too. 😔
Every person has a right to choose what happens with their life, he sounds like he made you doubt that.
Don't doubt yourself anymore. I hope you got/can get some counselling 💐

In my father's second marriage the wife was the higher earner. Weird really when the only thing he'd 'allow' my mum to do was clean an empty school 🤷🏻‍♀️

@BittenontheBum ive no doubt it was all his fault. although I’m not comfortable with a lot of the things I did I know I did it to survive using the only way I knew back then.

I know that feeling well too.
Look forwards and take care 💐

@BittenontheBum back at you!