I have a question. Are abusers just abusive and not capable of having “normal” relationships”. Please bare with me for asking.

[Myfirstborn]

If you have “abused” another in an intimate relationship. I kind of dislike that term and prefer to say used abusive behaviours to control another. If you have manipulated, gaslighted, intimidated, scared, lied, given silent treatment etc to an intimate partner in the past does that make you “abusive”?

As in your are “abusive”, instead of you were on that occasion. Implying I guess that you are capable of non abusive relationships in the future? I would self prescribe myself as relatively normal and would not do those behaviours on another. I would feel emotions if I felt rejected but I would not project them onto another. I’d go away, process perhaps feel justified or feel crap then get over it.

Do they have a fault in this process one that is just who they are with every aspect of their life?

My ex felt so terrible he couldn’t wait to go to court so he could stand up and tell everyone what a disgusting parasite (what he called me) I was, apparently he couldn’t wait to tell them all the secrets I told him and he did.

I think it makes up the vast percentage of it

But that's all it is: what you think. There's no reliable source that will tell you it's actually the case, because we don't know. Many disordered personality disorders are undiagnosed, as you say yourself. What you think isn't really much to go on. I think pigs are yellow. What difference does it make to anything?

i do think there is a difference between people who are just abusive full stop and people who have acted abusively in specific relationships but it is not indicative of their overall character.

I do think toxic relationships and bad pairings can bring out abusive behaviour, like calling someone names, stonewalling, emotional manipulation - but often it’s on both sides.
You do tend to see a lot of this in early relationships where there is still a lot of emotional immaturity.

BUT you wouldn’t expect to see that behaviour and character exhibited in other areas of their life, you wouldn’t expect to see it perpetuate into future relationships etc. And you’d expect after time the person could look back and be ashamed of their behaviour, take ownership and learn from it.

What you’ve described sounds like someone with some serious issues who will continue to act this way until they confront the problems in therapy and start to learn to be a better person. That rarely happens so the likelihood is that he’ll remain abusive to any partner who comes along. Maybe not straight away, maybe not even in the same ways, but eventually the behaviour will come out again bc the root cause hasn’t been addressed.

I think it probably depends. Somebody whose behaviour is obviously abusive and is clearly unacceptable by the standards of their culture and upbringing is probably just innately abusive and would be abusive in any relationship.

However, there are behaviours which we might class as abusive which are the norm in other cultures or in some families. I can see that a man brought up with these things being seen as normal might show those behaviours in a relationship with a partner who didn't challenge them, but he might question his behaviour and attitudes if a different partner pointed out they were unacceptable.

Generally I'd say and abusive arsehole is an abusive arsehole though.

Well absolutely. But so is you thinking its mostly NOT personality disorders that cause it.

Opinions from two people on the Internet are just opinions. And in my opinion there's a shit ton of monstrous people walking around that just aren't like us, and they make up the majority of abusers. I'm sure there are exceptions of course. But I believe they are the source of most sociatal abuse. Workplace bullying, spousal abuse, familiar abuse...usually (in my opinion) there's a cluster b at the centre of it.

*Family abuse

I think the word is getting confused. Shouting abuse like at a football match and abuse in an intimate relationship is very different.

No, it isn't. Sometimes it is. Sometimes not.

'Oh, fuck off, you stupid cow', and casual comments like that, can be very similar to rudeness on a casual basis in the street, or, as you say, at a sports match. It might have a different affect on the recipient, it might not, depending on the relationship. I've seen that sort of comment passed off as 'Just him being grumpy', many a time, without identifying it as domestic abuse. That sort of thing has nothing to do with personality disorders, and everything to do with lack of respect and poor boundaries.

Depends really I suppose. You can be mouthy and not abusive if the other person knows this and accepts this or is mouthy also and compliments. That’s either disrespect or might be part of a healthy relationship. Each to there own. If the recipient says that what you are saying is hurting my feelings and you continue doing it I think this changes things, especially if you are getting enjoyment out of it or using it as a tool to destroy someone’s self esteem on constant basis.

An abuser will see the recipients reaction and not care. If you shout and scare someone so they cry or act desperate or sad then a normal person would check themselves as guilt would kick in.

In the street or public space is also very different to an empty house with noone around to see or protect you. When someone shouts 1 inch in your face.

That being said shouting disgusting things to strangers say at a football match or at the chemist is pretty foul also and shows a lot about how crap behaviour is often accepted as the norm in society.

You open by asking "If you..." so for what it's worth I'll answer as someone who has certainly committed an abusive act. I have posted about it before but in summary, on one occasion when my wife was holding on to me and blocking the bedroom door to stop me leaving a room during a row, I got her to let go and away from the door by putting my hands on her throat.
Maybe a second or so but it was a serious abusive act. The only time I'd done this before was as a teen in a fight with another boy my age who was stronger than me and had knocked me down and was kneeling on me laughing at how weak I was. I felt so ashamed in that moment which is relevant.

I didn't do it with my first wife and it never happened again, although my wife will still 'door block' if I try to leave a room and she is shouting at me. Whether she is justified in that is irrelevant here.

Did I feel guilt at the time? Yes but much more intense shame and shame makes us want to hide our transgression "earth swallow me up" which doesn't help us face up to what we did. I buried this for many years until the last few months but have made a therapist aware and am referring to DAPP programme. I never felt pleased I'd done it or that it was valid due to "provocation" or that she "deserved it" that said, It was done to gain power in the moment, and I think is linked to a need to be right in situations as to be wrong or 'losing' leads to me feeling intense shame. I was punished or humiliated as a child for being wrong and in that moment I thought it was right that I be allowed to leave as I was being accused of something I hadn't done and I wanted to escape the shame.

Interesting discussion of personality disorders. I have self diagnosed as a covert narcissist but am having trouble getting anyone to believe me, not as an excuse but as a warning to them, maybe my therapist will, she is getting everything I've ever done and is a very experienced clinical psychologist.

I think my point is that abusive or morally reprehensible behaviours that look the same may have different causes. Mine are due to trying to avoid experiencing shame rather than trying to have power - at least as a primary driver as perhaps having power means I don't get shamed?

@Notsuchaniceguy you did it by the sounds to stop the feeling of being out of control of your own self at that point by using power to control and make it stop. You tipped the power balance by being stronger I guess That’s what most abuse is based on really. It’s great that you have sought help. Being physically blocked must have been extremely overwhelming for you and it sounds good you recognise that your response was not great. I would be more accepting if my ex admitted what he did was wrong and did something about it.

Instead he signed up immediately to dating websites using the joint account and got a girlfriend who was pregnant within a year. He also has abused each and every girlfriend in a medley of different ways. Ways that I don’t know how he lives with himself really. Not that it makes it any better for your wife at the time.

I think it can depend on power dynamics. Johnny Depp, for example, did not appear to have abused Kate Moss during their relationship, but I'm pretty sure he did abuse Amber Heard. But he and Moss were 'only' 11 years apart in age and both extremely famous at the time they were together.

Heard was 23 years younger, and was significantly less famous than him when they were together. Different power dynamic where he knew, consciously or subconsciously, he could get away with more, and, indeed he could it appears.

What did she say about unhealthy relationship dynamics?
What's the difference between abusive behaviour and toxic relationships?

A lot of people who are abusive were abused themselves as children. So they are affected by a combination of factors:

• simply not knowing what's normal in a family environment,
• no healthy strategies to manage their emotions and conflict because no-one ever taught or modelled these to them
• learning abusive strategies (e.g. controlling it manipulative behaviours) as a way to stay safe as a child, and these behaviours become their automatic way to handle conflict in close relationships
• copying an abusive parent who they idolised, and then it is very painful to come to terms with the fact that their whole view of their childhood is an illusion,
• long-term severe stress in childhood damages brain development in areas that are used for problem solving and emotional regulation.

I believe it is possible to change these things, but as you can imagine it's a hell of a lot of work to undo all of the above.

@MMMarmite you just described my ex. He was abused by his father as his mum told me it was true. He unfortunately used this as a tool to get away with his behaviour, lull people in to make people feel sorry then use it as an excuse unfortunately. Even his mum let him get away with treating her and his partners bad. But I don’t blame him I suppose for behaving the only way he knew how. Same outcome though.

I'm sorry you sent through that.

I think you can feel empathy for people like him, and also have firm boundaries that you can't let those patterns repeat. I'm glad you got away.

*went

So well said. I'd say a lot of that is me. That said I didn't idolise my parents, I was afraid of my mother and hoped she'd leave or even die and believed totally that my father was superior to me in every way. As did he. That soda he believed he was superior to everyone on earth as far as I can tell.

My emotional regulation was poor and I became a 'nice guy' in the bad kind of 'nice guy' way - a sort of opposite to my dad but still harmful to others, being 'nice' so people liked me and I felt better about myself - covert narc supply to defend against shame.

You are right that it takes a lot of work to undo that and I am never sure I will be fully healed or safe to be around despite the work I put in. I try hard now not to be angry, not to be caught by the 'unfairness' and 'pity party' traps as that helps no-one and puts others more at risk of shit behaviour.

@Notsuchaniceguy are you like this in all areas of your life?

For example my ex didn’t just subject his female partners. He once held a smear campaign at work against a guy who was bigger, stronger (lifted weights) better at his job, better looking (he attracted a string of ladies), absolutely a text book narcissist. In the end the guy left, I don’t know why he didn’t come for my ex as his behaviour was appalling. My ex was justified but he was clearly extremely jealous. He created issues with staff wherever he went. There was always something wrong with someone, someone who always had it against him. Even strangers in the street were looking at him funny and he was ready to start a fight at the drop of a hat.

It did feel at times like dating a 5 year old. One that had this constant chip on his shoulder that the world and everyone in it was against him or trying to put him down. I found out towards the end as a teenager he used to self harm. He must carry around such shame inside. It appears he finds a way to diffuse this shame now in his relationships by being the nice guy. He really have a lot, and was extremely generous. But as you say the not so nice guy as if you cross his agenda and make him feel not nice then you are in for trouble really. We can’t live like this, we all say things sometimes, we all have different wants and needs, we view the world differently because we are different people.

Sorry was meant to say he really invested a lot into his relationships and was extremely generous, too much really.

My agenda in life is not to make my partner feel less shame about himself or fill that hole or make him look good so he feels good. I’ve got my own agenda. I tried to help and was manipulated to help a great deal and got completely lost and worn out mentally and physically in the process. It’s very sad and I pity the child in that adult body I really do. They were treated terrible as a child. But they make extremely damaging adults.