I have a question. Are abusers just abusive and not capable of having “normal” relationships”. Please bare with me for asking.

[Myfirstborn]

If you have “abused” another in an intimate relationship. I kind of dislike that term and prefer to say used abusive behaviours to control another. If you have manipulated, gaslighted, intimidated, scared, lied, given silent treatment etc to an intimate partner in the past does that make you “abusive”?

As in your are “abusive”, instead of you were on that occasion. Implying I guess that you are capable of non abusive relationships in the future? I would self prescribe myself as relatively normal and would not do those behaviours on another. I would feel emotions if I felt rejected but I would not project them onto another. I’d go away, process perhaps feel justified or feel crap then get over it.

Do they have a fault in this process one that is just who they are with every aspect of their life?

@Notsuchaniceguy you deserve all the professional help you are asking for and I hope it helps you heal that inner child I really do, I’m sorry for what you felt as a child. You are right to stay away from intimate relationships though until you fix the problem ( if it’s fixable like you said but that’s another thread and one I have no knowledge on at all). I would have so much more respect for my ex if he came to this conclusion also. Instead he is damaging our children and it’s unforgivable.

@Myfirstborn have you heard of Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft? If not, I recommend it. It's available for free.

I disagree too.

Scratch the surface of a repeated pattern of episodes of rage, shoving, and any other behaviour that has the effects of intimidating or physically dominating another person, and you will find a person who very likely has completely devalued their victim, or someone who perceives himself to be the victim of the other person, or someone who is rejecting and hurting the victim before they reject them.

The effect on the victim has to be taken into account - a once off episode of rage, rape, physical violence, etc. can be enough to terrify a victim.

But it's the response of the perpetrator when he realizes the effect of his behaviour that is always very illuminating. The true abuser will engage in the cycle of abuse, though there can be individual variations in how he behaves. Abusers engage in manipulative, blaming behaviour, and if they ever apologise, it is always with the aim of reeling the victim back in to hold her in place for further punching bag practice.

Also, abuse rarely takes just one form. Obviously, there's a psychological and emotional element to pure physical violence, with victims often suffering from PTSD and cPTSD. But there can also be verbal abuse, abusive accusations, blame, and jealousy; sexual abuse, abuse with a religious element, withdrawal of affection/ silent treatment/ sulking; financial abuse, creation of chaos, serial cheating, abuse of male privilege. These can all take place simultaneously or in various combinations.

People who lose their shit on a once off basis, are horrified by their behaviour, take complete responsibility for it, apologise sincerely, and make amends for as long as it takes to earn back the trust of the person they abused are clearly not people who have a personality disorder.

The difference between them and abusers is the recognition of trust and mutual guarantees of emotional, psychological, sexual, and physical safety as the basis of a healthy relationship, and their efforts to rebuild when they breach this foundation because they recognise their responsibility for the breach and the importance of mutual trust and safety in a relationship. Abusers will never acknowledge personal responsibility and do not see relationships as a matter of mutuality - they are players of power games, other people are two-dimensional providers of supply for them; relationships serve their bottomless and completely insatiable ego needs .

The patterns associated with abuse in intinate relationships are a large part of how a picture of a narcissist, EU/ borderline, or histrionic individual can be built up. These individuals can sometimes mask to a certain extent in their professional lives, but often they will not, and they will have chequered careers. Sadly, there are careers where being a narcissist or sociopath will boost your path to the top. A lot of lawyers fit the bill, ditto CEOs. Not all, but more than the general population.

Wow @mathanxiety if I had the means to articulate how I felt about it I would have written it like this. To devalue a person there must be some difference in the brain.

My ex is in the beauty industry where his clients are female, this can’t be a coincidence. He also in every place of work finds people who need taking down a peg or two and he fixates on them until it leads to his firing or they leave.

That's a good question and deserves a considered reply.

At work no. I am well-liked and am told I am good at my job. I find that hard to believe and it causes me significant psychological and physiological distress when I hear it, a wave of anxious nausea and an inner voice that screams out that I am a piece of shit and if they only knew the real me. I never take credit for others' work and do my best to ensure their efforts are recognised. I've never sabotaged a colleague or tried to hurt one. I've been praised for being fair and respectful to colleagues who have been problematic for the team. Again makes me die inside because.... I question myself all the time as to whether that is a subtle narcissism, me doing so in order that they like me. The same goes for people in distress. Do I help them because I have true empathy or because I want them to like me?

In regard to that latter point I certainly made a habit of 'helping' other women in my first marriage. I see now this was for ego boosts and wanting to be liked as least as much as it was true empathy. It was like I had the emotional sophistication and mindset of a teenager until I was into my forties.

It led to the end of my first marriage and the beginning of my second, which has been deeply troubled throughout. I should, of course, have ended my 1st marriage honestly or worked on it properly (I never loved her but married her because I thought no-one would ever have me) but I didn't - emotionally stunted narcissistic teenager in an adult body.

In my daily life I'm not a rule breaker, I'm opposite, arguably too much a rule follower according to my wife. I don't ignore others' distress even if I could walk on by- you know, person falls over in street and they haven't seen me so I could leave them to it. I wouldn't, I'd go and help. But again that may be narcissistic supply.

I do get angry though. Road rage is a thing. I have once or twice done the car chase/follow thing for a mile or so. Never got out and fought or anything and I have anger management strategies I found online that help me. In road rage I feel like that helpless child who has been humiliated yet again when someone cuts me up. In fact I've right now made a link to why that might be - my mother used to drive me around when she was very drunk. I knew she was in no fit state to drive and putting us at risk and I knew she cared so little for me that she was willing to do it. I think her ghost, so often with me, is very present when I'm driving and not in a good place because that's when road stuff gets me. So I can add to the tool kit a reminder to tell her to leave the car when it's been a bad day

So thank you for allowing me to discover this and for your remarkable empathy in your posts.

@Notsuchaniceguy perhaps it’s a problem in your intimate relationships and not so much in relationships that have no intimacy. No one truly knows us like the people we hold dear (our parents should have loved us) People at work don’t really know you just the person you portray. Someone said on a previous post that we are all guilty in some way of wanting people to like us, we all have a phone voice so to say. I don’t think there is much wrong with being good at work and wanting to be liked and make friends etc. I mean we are there a lot of the day so you don’t want it to be bloody awful all the time.

My ex told me his past and it was deeply sad. Deep down I believe my husband loved me (at least in the beginning, after all he found someone amazing lol someone with great empathy, which I do, someone he thought could take all the pain away) but he couldn’t help but take disagreements deeper then they actually were intended or needed. Every disagreement went straight to his shame wound. He devalued me to stop the pain of my words because they would then come from someone who didn’t matter, didn’t exist in a way (I don’t think he had control of this, it’s survival) Disagreeing to his opinion didn’t mean he was bad (coming from someone wired differently)it just meant we are two separate people with differing opinions that we respect or if they differ to much we can leave.

Deep down I suspect that both of us had issues with the feeling of rejection going into it, that relationship has definitely left me with deep wounds in that particular area coming out. I was with him over a decade and the feeling that develops in a “victim” whether intentional or not is rejection. Nobody wants to feel rejected it’s shameful and we do stupid things, some completely unconsciously to stop the feeling. Some I see in my child (they/you made me do that, but she is 7. Some behaviours we learn in order to stop the rejection as a child and never learn out of because our parents didn’t teach us and became it worked when we were 7.

We ended up depending on each other to take away the shame, a viscous cycle. The only difference being between the “abuser” and the “victim” was that he devalued me very early on so never felt the sting of his actions and I never devalued him so felt every single thing that he said or did, and still do to a point as I’m also healing. The “victim” always ends up broke and in therapy and the “abuser” walks away with clean hands.

Only my opinion on the type of abuse I experienced. I learned very early on to not listen to my own feelings, I had some influence on this relationship, but his abuse was not my fault. Other people will have a totally different experience.

In answer I guess there are different types of “abuser” as there are different types of “victims”. Mine hates the slightest bit of rejection even from colleagues but you didn’t. After all no one persons childhood is the same and no one feels the same as another even in the same experience. Some people can eat peanuts, some people die from eating them, some love the taste and some don’t, some just don’t want to try in the first place. We all react differently.

Can an adult learn empathy I don’t have that knowledge in the human brain.

@Notsuchaniceguy the bit about the car hit a nerve with me. My ex had anger issues and would kick off in the car all the time. It effected me in a deep way I can only understand after having therapy. He didn’t kick off to intentionally hurt me, he just was angry and had no coping mechanisms, but….my mum when I was a teenager and I did something she didn’t like or said something would put her foot down in the car out of anger and I was terrified. I shat myself when I sat in the car each and every time with him. I sat paralysed, empty just waiting. If I was that scared I’d say stop you are scaring me he would shout at me because me telling him to stop triggered something in him. Sometimes he would go the wrong way and I’d say you went the wrong way he would get angry because he heard stop you are stupid.

I’m doing some serious waffling now but it’s got me thinking. My ex self harmed as a young man, he then raped, hit, emotionally/mentally abused his first girlfriend but not his second. He hit, emotionally/mentally abused his second girlfriend but not me. He “only” emotionally and mentally abused me. But he would say I’m nothing like those men who abuse there partners like hitting.

Now it got me thinking, is he learning that the things he did were wrong or is he learning that those things got him dumped and rejected? What’s he got left to manipulate with now he knows they all get him dumped? Anger management, which court made him go on only puts a plater over the wound it doesn’t stop what’s festering underneath.

I'll just add that I don't do that. When I left my first wife I lost friends. I didn't turn on them or see them as having let me down. I recognised that they rightly saw my behaviour (emotional affair) as awful behaviour and I accepted their decision to cut me loose. Same for my ex wife, I never saw her as having done me wrong or sought to harm her - beyond the massive betrayal of the EA and the whole 'nice guy' with all the women friends harms. She was and is a good person who deserved a lot better than me - I married her knowing I didn't love her. My mother even said to me 'no-one else will have you' after telling me she thought my then girlfriend was too shy and therefore boring to her. If I could turn back the clock that's the day I wish I'd told my mother and dad I was done with their shit show and left them to it.

I knew the affair had been morally wrong and entirely on me. That said until a few years ago I never had the backbone to apologise to my ex wife and children and mean it and be truly OK with them not forgiving me.

My AP and now wife was much more judgmental of my friends and sought to denigrate and mock my ex wife to me - she referred to her as a freak and the weirdo and would ask me what I'd seen in her and why did I stay with her. She spoke about her ex husband similarly. My shame and responsibility here is that I didn't argue back or do what I should have done which was leave AP before she became my wife, apologise to my ex wife and my AP's husband without expectation of forgiveness and focus on me and my children as a single man.

All the signs of a toxic relationship were there, control, jealous rages (her) and walking out, driving off (me) from a few weeks of us moving in together and some from before that during the EA. I was gutless and AP was also another source of narc supply in a way I think. And then I committed my act of physical abuse and was dammed through my own choices. I had fully become the thing I'd believed myself to be from my earliest awareness of self - an unloveable creature.

My AP didn't cause my abuse, I did because I wasn't emotionally and psychologically developed enough to have behaved differently earlier. I had choice points over and over again and did not choose in the interests of others.

Apologies this has become a therapy session for me. I'd avoid replying to me, I may, I'm not sure, be doing a narc thing here - wanting ego boosting, shame reducing words. Whilst all I have said is as true as I can remember and make it, I am still a damaged and probably dangerous person.

Oh I hate perceived rejection from colleagues and I hate being wrong. But I don't blame them for rejecting me, it is turned inward. The voice says "they are right, you are wrong, they are good people, you are a bad person. Run away and hide, they have found you out"

I am genuinely awestruck by your empathy and understanding for your abuser and your profound insight.

@Notsuchaniceguy don’t worry I don’t know you, I don’t even know if what you are saying is true, you are a stranger over the internet, it’s just one side of a story -and it’s your perception, I’m not a judge or want to remove you of your responsibility but it’s interesting nonetheless. People on both sides need to discuss really in order to gain understanding and knowledge. I’ve learnt protection mechanisms for myself to a degree. What you say to me takes nothing away from the awful experience I went through and the fault of the abuse lies with him and with you. Gaining knowledge helps to explain the situation but it doesn’t mean it’s right or forgivable.

Not getting into another relationship to protect a person if you can’t control yourself is the right thing to. It is the right thing to explore this with therapy. It differs to my ex who told me that he could never be with another if he ever hurt me, but within weeks was on dating websites. Then within a year has moved in and had a baby with a lady 14 years younger then him.

I was abused by my mother, I understand that I was fully capable of ending up differently. I was lucky that I had the most amazing father who showed me empathy and it was given freely. In a way he balanced out my brain just enough. But I have learned unhealthy coping mechanisms that hurt myself just not others. I also feel the sting of rejection but I can also cope with differing opinions for example. I know that my partner at the moment loves and respects me when our opinions differ. We have never raised our voices, we agree to disagree and that’s that. He does not make me feel shame, I do not feel shame to talk about things. I don’t want to purposely hurt him but if I have then I will apologise and visa versa. To be in a relationship is to experience every emotion it is healthy. It’s healthy to feel accepted. If it changed and I began to feel rejected I would check my feeling to see if it’s valid or not, am I being unreasonable. If not and the problems continued then I will leave. At the end of the day we want our relationships to be happy, safe and add to our lives.

Good point about anger management. Interesting it's named that and not anger reduction, perhaps because it doesn't work that well in a lot of cases? That said anger is an emotion we all feel at times don't we? And can it be valid? Anger at injustice for example?

Good point about abusers 'changing' as they find out manipulation strategies no longer work as opposed to meaningful change because they have gained empathy.

@Notsuchaniceguy anger is a topic I’m talking to my daughter about. It’s a perfectly natural normal emotion that needs challenging. Her friend won’t let her be first in the dinner line, she is angry so she bites her friends. She is not wrong to feel angry but she is wrong to bite her friend. We don’t put our hands on people when we are angry. We don’t hurt people back because we are angry. In her instance it’s ok to let her friend go first, if she feels that it was her turn she can turn to the teacher. She can go off and vent her anger playing or throwing a ball or something, let it diffuse. Most of the time once it’s gone it’s gone and that’s that.

Yes anger management can reduce the physical acting out but sending my emotionally abuse husband to anger management when he hasn’t physically put a hand on me is not much use. You can’t stop being angry if you don’t address what makes you angry you just squeeze the anger into another avenue another outlet. If you hurt someone because of your anger and you take on board and feel guilty then you need to either leave the person or go to anger management and work with your partner. Your partner needs strong boundaries and needs to stick to them. If like a lot of abusers they blame the other person then going to anger management won’t stop the other persons perceived hurt hurting if that makes sense. It’s the perception of the injustice that’s at fault here, anger management won’t effect that. If that makes sense.

The patterns associated with abuse in intinate relationships are a large part of how a picture of a narcissist, EU/ borderline, or histrionic individual can be built up

Yes, but that doesn't mean that anybody who displays them has a diagnosable medical disorder. Lots of us display several traits of autism, too, but that doesn't mean we have diagnosable autism, or that we're 'a bit autistic'.

You sound like you've got a good handle on teaching your daughter about emotions and behaviour. Emotions are fine but we must learn to control the things they urge us to do?

I was brought up with 'emotions are bad things' - so don't have them - dad and school "real men don't cry, don't get mad, get even" and so on. Mother was more emotionally expressive but mainly uncontrolled anger managed by alcohol. Which no doubt her childhood experiences contributed to. Never did work out why my dad thought he was God's gift to us all.

If you think you've been in a relationship with a narcissist then listen to Caroline Strawson podcasts.

She has helped me realise that it's not me, it's him, and the need for "supply" of adoration.

They are deeply wounded people, and nobody will ever satisfy them long term unless they are happy doing whatever the narcissist wants and expects x

@Notsuchaniceguy there is only one bit of advice I can give you and that is the same advice I find hard to take myself. “Forgive yourself for not knowing what you did before you knew it”. Get to the route cause and continue to get help to be better. It’s all we can do, we try to be better. It’s really what we do with the knowledge we have that matters.

Thank you. Very good advice. I find it hard to take though but I am trying.

I wish you well.

To devalue a person there must be some difference in the brain.

Yes to this.

Devaluing is one side of a coin, on the other side of which is the idealising/ pedestal treatment. Seeing, appreciating, and respecting the full reality of other people is never possible for a narcissist, sociopath, or psychopath.

This is as true when they are love bombing as when they are treating you with rage and contempt. They're not seeing the real you. They're seeing their own self image reflecting back at them.

@mathanxiety I could never understand why in arguments over what I thought was something very minor he responded with a rage that was so out of proportion. I used to say to him afterwards you really scared me, you really looked like you hated me. At that point he didn’t see me, the real me he saw the shame in himself didn’t he?

The next day he was over it but I was left with the fallout for days/forever. He was justified and satisfied in my collapse and apology and I ignored what we argued about, which was probably me expressing a feeling I had. I guess this is where the cognitive dissonance steps in. These arguments caused permanent damage and I never realised.

To devalue a person there must be some difference in the brain

I don't think you need to be disordered to do this. We've all done it, for example, if someone behaves poorly towards us on the roads, we've all devalued the person down to being 'a stupid prat' or worse. We don't think 'That nice sensible person just did a silly thing', or 'That nice person made a mistake, thank goodness nobody got hurt', we think 'I can't believe idiots like that are allowed to drive!'

It's true that that's different to someone in your own home, but only by degree, not by the presence of the behaviour/reaction in itself.

There's a lot of distinguishing here between 'normal' and supposedly 'disordered', when clinically diagnosable disorder is very extreme. I don't doubt that abusers are messed up individuals with responses that seem off to many of us, and with hurtful behaviours. To say that they're diagnosably disordered in the majority is too big a leap though. There's a lot of horrible people. They don't mostly have personality disorders.

Rather than a disorder perhaps a reaction to previous trauma.