OW who isn’t?

[Onetimeonlyusername]

Where to start. I am 61 and my DP is 63. We’ve been together for 12 years and are committed to each other. We’ve both been married before and both have kids. Neither of us are particularly bothered about doing it again, but we are financially entangled. We’ve also recently retired which makes things even more complicated.

DP has been a womaniser all his life but it largely stopped when he met me. We agreed that, if it happened, he would use condoms and tell me. He has told me about 2 occasions. One of them is the problem. He has had an on-off thing (I don’t know what to call it. It’s not an affair, but it is more than just sex) with a woman from his home country for over 20 years. Last time he went home he slept with her and subsequently told me. I asked him to cut all contact with her and he did. That was 7 years ago.

He went back to his home country in December for the first time since Covid to see his family. Unbeknownst to me he got in touch with her again and, unsurprisingly, they had sex etc. He told me a month ago but brushed it away as a fling with an old flame and nothing serious. He seemed surprised that I was jealous and said she meant nothing and was just a bit of fun. Neither of us have mentioned it since.

I could forgive all this. I knew who and what he was from the start and she is a long way away. Then I saw an email she sent him at new year. I didn’t snoop but it popped up in his sent items, the original is buried in a folder with an old business name so definitely hidden. It was devastating. It’s clear from her email that he told her he loved her and she was the one. Lots of sex stuff but not gory details, lots about how they make each other feel and romantic exchanges. He told her that he’s fantasied about her since the day they met. It’s clear that it’s not a shag with a willing volunteer. It’s a very long email and the tone and the references to comments and conversation makes it clear that they have very very deep feelings for each other. And I am honest enough to see that his feelings are probably deeper than hers. This isn’t an infatuation with a pretty little thing. She is in her 50s and a successful and accomplished woman.

She ended the email with words to the effect that anything between them was impossible because of the distance but that she had the same warm place in her heart for him as he had for her. Basically telling him it was not to be and that she wanted to stay friends. He replied to say he had read it and that he loved her but has sent nothing since.

I just don’t know what to do now. She clearly isn’t a threat to our relationship in that he won’t leave me for her. She sounds very sensible in her email and points out that, even if he did return to his home country for her, a relationship between them would be unlikely to survive the pressure. But he loves her and dreams about her and I am second to that. If I leave him I blow all my financial security for retirement. I could just leave it and let it scab over til it heals, but the scar will always be there. He has no idea that I know and I can’t ask him as I don’t want to hear him lie or tell the truth but it is burning a hole in me and I don’t know what to do.

I totally understand the pragmatism you had over your relationship. And the pragmatism you still have.

FWIW this is my concern. You had an open relationship of sorts. This was your way of managing your safety. You felt safe because you agreed he would tell you and use a condom. You saw him as a womaniser. Right ok, but with womanising comes a level of selfishness and entitlement that you (both) thought could be managed.

It couldn’t.

He has now shown himself to be a cake eating cheat. I get the ‘fantasy’ part of this but whatever, at the end of the day affairs are transactional. He gets ego kibbles from her and she returns them and they both feel better until the high fades and he/she reaches out again. I doubt this is his love for her or any such nonsense, it’s his need for validation and he’s now betrayed you to get it.

He's shown himself to you to be unsafe and that’s why you’re here. I would be having this conversation with him, but his historical need for validation and his selfishness and entitlement will mean I doubt whether he can change. You have a decision, can you feel safe and redraw your boundaries or not?

I agree with a PP about reality & fantasy. I also think that there is a lot to be said for financial security and companionship.
I do think that you really need to think about this though. Not just for your recently retired selves but also 10, 20 years down the line. What happens if one of you is seriously ill? Would you be able to care for him? Would you trust him to care for you?
I'd also make sure to build my own life with my own friends, hobbies etc so that you are not too dependent on your partner. This is my plan for retirement anyway but doubly important in your case I feel.

What is the situation when one of you die? Will assets go to your children? If yes, you do not have a secure retirement.

I'm sorry that this is happening to you OP.

I know that there are many ways to have a loving, happy relationship. I know that open relationships can work when both parties are free to explore outside the relationship. But this isn't really the case here, is it? You allow him to sleep with others because you seem to think that he HAS to. He doesn't your post is quite sad to read in that you seem so impressed that he has cut down on his womanising for you. Your expectations with this man are so, so low OP. You've come to this situation not through a discussion about what makes you both happy, but through what you think you must put up with in order to be with this man.

Your relationship is based on a compromise that only you are making. I swear to God, you are worth more than that.

As far as the OW is concerned, she is just a fantasy to him. She doesn't want him, so she is safe to "love" (obsess over) from a distance. I don't know if she is the actual issue here though, it's the fact that he has so little respect for you that he thinks it's okay to send her an email like that. And as I said above, I think that it's part of a wider problem.

If I leave him I blow all my financial security for retirement.

You are financially entangled with a womaniser. I'm very sorry , OP. That was never going to end well.

As you say your options are putting up with it emotionally or suffering financially. This is not a fair choice for anyone to have to make.

Are you really that desperate? Have some self respect.

I echo @Annabananna1

@Onetimeonlyusername

Just get rid
Do you really think that this is acceptable???

He is not committed to you! How can you say that and then go on to say he sleeps with other people. I couldn’t put up with that, never mind the letter. You can do better than this.

Open relationships can work. This is not one. He's in love with her. That wasn't the deal, but it happens. If you decide to stay can you live with knowing that? That he'd be with her if he could, and that he has been shagging her at every opportunity so far?

I wouldn't want to live like that.

Why not live together as friends/ flatmates if you like each other? That way you'll have the financial security, you won't feel second best etc?

I'm utterly open mouthed at why the OP is putting up with this rubbish from this tripehound. It's astonishing how some women will prostrate and gaslight themselves for some man.

you lost me at you justifying him being a womanizer - honestly find your self respect and get rid. He sleeps with others and then tells you after and you somehow think this is okay? Where are your boundaries, go find them.

You are not financially secure.

The rest is your business.

I’m sorry but why were you happy to be with someone that you knew would be cheating on you? I honestly don’t understand how anyone could be worth more than your own dignity and self worth?

OP it sounds like he gets limerences. It's not love, it's fantasy and triggered by lots of things.

He probably does love you. He's just going through a limerent stage with this OW.

Can you talk to him about it. Removing barriers for them to be together, not having it as a secret etc will all make the limerences fade out. It thrives when there's a fantasy, bring it in to reality.

You allowed this ? Wow. Please leave and find some self respect.

When you started the relationship , did he move into yours ?
How do you manage finances ?
In those 12 years have you both been equal in who brings what to the table ?
Asking because it sounds like you have yourself a cocklodger and maybe in more ways than one.

Good morning. These replies have given me a lot to think about overnight. Some comments are not quite right. We came to the relationship on very equal financial terms and have both worked hard since, there is no cocklodging. We have made wills etc to manage estates, kids inheritance, etc if one pre deceases. I would never follow him back to his home country and, as far as I know, he has no intention of returning. His kids and grandkids are here and fully assimilated (they were born in his home country but the family moved when they were young).

The email came from her but it referenced a lot of conversations they had had so I know what he said to her. There is one other thing in the back of my mind though. He hasn’t really replied to her which could be a sign that he is ignoring her or it could be that he is struggling with the words. He has a form of dyslexia so his emails can be slightly incomprehensible and he gets frustrated that he can’t communicate what he wants to say sometimes. He has an elderly mum who is loves very much but who is in her 80s and getting frail. During covid he was terribly worried and upset that he may never see her again. I know he will want to visit more now and I also know that, in the fullness of time, there will be a messy estate to deal with. He will have to go backwards and forwards quite a bit and I know he will see her. They might make plans for a future then? I don’t know. But I comfort myself with the fact that, once his mum has gone and everything is settled he will have no reason to go. And I hate myself for thinking that about an old lady.

I still don’t know what to do. Some of this is hard to read, especially external perceptions of my choices. I do love him very much as well as the financial enmeshment. I always imagined us getting old together and I do think he actually does love me, but only within the bounds that he is capable. One of those limits is her. I could live with it if she was a one time thing but he has had these feelings for over 20 years. Her email references his comment that he remembers what she was wearing on the day they met and that he thinks about things they did together decades ago. I know he doesn’t think like that about me and I still can’t answer the question about whether what he is able to give is enough.

@Onetimeonlyusername
OP - in your place I’d just try to focus on reality and your present and future life.
I do think you are right - and with age what seemed important in our 20s - isn’t as important as we become older.

You are his real partner. She is a very occasional fantasy. I may possibly have something similar in my life. Have a friend who has always lived in a different country - we sort of criss crossed the word in different directions. And have always had a certain special something - and acted or not on it depending on lots of life events. It’s hard to put a definition on it. And I guess - there probably were times after we’d re-connect on some occasion - we’d exchange messages with deep and meaningful words of emotion - BUT - I think it was more driven by the flair up / post physical connection. None of that meant and actual real life love that we have or had for our partners.
We never actually attempted to have a relationship - because we clearly know our ‘special connection’ only works at a distance.

Dont let this ruin your life in reality.

Why on earth would you want to be in a relationship with someone who sleeps around, but it's ok so long as he tells you and wears condoms? I know you claim it's only happened twice and that isn't much according to you but, seriously?? This man is so amazing that you will put up with this? I'm sorry but you're being taken for a ride here and you're letting him do it so...what do you expect?

I think that your reality is that you will have to live with reduced circumstances either way. Either financially if you decide to leave him, or emotionally if you decide to stay.

Your partner is in love with another woman, he doesn't seem able to accept the impact this has on you, is not open or honest with you and finds your "jealousy" about his bit of fun, which you know that this is not, amusing.

She clearly isn’t a threat to our relationship

Maybe not, but his actions certainly are. If there is a prospect of him spending more time near her as his mother ails, there is more of this to come, and what price are you willing to pay to live through this for years to come until one of them calls it off (it won't be him) and your partner is then someone elses jilted lover?

I think you can do better for yourself, you are young, free yourself from this weight he's brought to you. Let him deal with it, without you as the comfortable back stop.

He'll find a reason for why he has to go back even after his mother has died. Because that's what you do when you love someone.

Maybe he loves you too. It's absolutely possible to love more than one person at a time. But if you stay be realistic about your life now and in the future. This woman lives in his head full-time regardless of how often he actually sees her.

You seem unconventional yourself. Mumsnet isn't.

This is true but I think misses the point. Unconventional relationships work where both parties are happy and get something out of it. It's not clear what OP gets out of this set up at all- from her posts, she doesn't also have the freedom to sleep with other people, she isn't having another relationship, and she isn't happy. Not being conventional doesn't mean you don't have to consider other people's well-being- people do some pretty shitty things under the banner of "being unconventional" and then use their lack of convention as a defence against criticism ("Can't believe you're so upset about me shagging that girl- I didn't think you were such a square" etc etc). It's perfectly reasonable for OP to object to the current set up and frankly I think she's put up with a huge amount, none of which benefited her, on the basis that her partner used to be (more of) a womaniser and therefore she has to put up with crumbs.

OP, I think you have to talk to him about it all as a first step. But I wouldn't assume accepting this relationship means you have financial security etc and that he will never leave. You accepted an arrangement that a lot of people would not be happy with- effectively a one-sided open marriage- and he hasn't even managed to stick to that. I would not trust this man as far as I could throw him. I think there's a real risk that you trade your happiness and self-respect for financial security and commitment, and then he fucks off anyway.

This is going to sound harsh and I am not saying it to stick the knife in or anything, but I think sometimes it benefits someone to hear a perspective from an outsider looking in impartially.

He probably does love you, but he isn't in love with you. The choice you have it to stay with a man knowing he is always on the look out for something better and not just for sex but that he has the capability of falling in love with someone else whilst with you or to leave. If you're content and happy with the former because it makes other aspects of your life better then each to their own- but to make an informed decision I think you have to come to terms with the reality. Plenty of people are happy enough with people they know treat them like this, but plenty are happier knowing their worth and leaving even though it's hard.

What if the woman had said she wants to make it work? It sounds like he's cooled things as she isn't interested, very different to wanting to put boundaries in place because he respects you.