How do you know?

[Questionsandheartache]

How do you know when or if it's the end of the road for a marriage?
How likely is it a marriage can be rebuilt if you feel like you've checked out?

Together 20+ years. Usual ups and downs. Marriage counselling about 7 years ago, things improved. Things have gone further and further downhill over past 3 years.

No infidelity, abuse or other clear cut reason to split.

Sitting here after more sniping and resentful interactions trying to work out what to do.

It feels as though I'm staying because I'm worried about causing trauma to my children, one of whom has MH difficulties already. And because of lots of other things. But none of the reasons for staying seem to be about me loving him or wanting to be with him. Can I get those feelings back?

If we split it will affect everything for ever, from parents' evenings to big life events. But then we don't operate as a family anyway.

I don't know if we could afford to live separately. We'd surely have to sell the house and I don't know how either of us would manage as I don't see how we'd be able to buy two houses and run them.

I'm trying not to think about it but I can't face the disappointment from my parents.

But when I think of spending every day like this (and its been the same for a long time) I just feel crushingly sad and unhappy.

What if it's just depression or hormones that make me feel like this? What if I just shut up and get on with it and wait for things to get better.

Has anyone else been thorough this and things turned around?

I was with my XH for 14 years. We split about 10 years ago and I can honestly say we get on better now than ever. I’ve had another long relationship in the meantime and he’s had a couple too, and we’ve both welcomed new partners into the family, spent time together at family events and Xmas etc and gone out for meals with and without other partners to celebrate the kids’ birthdays.

I know that doesn’t work for everyone and it probably took a year or two to settle into that relationship but please don’t feel like it has to ruin everyone’s future if you split. You’ll both be happier.

Kids will get used to it - mine didn’t enjoy going to stay at his once or twice a week due to the upheaval, so sometimes he’d visit them here or take them out for dinner and bring them back later etc. If I went on holiday he’d stay at my house with them to make it easier etc. but they understood that we were both happier in our own space and they saw me in a very loving and affectionate relationship with someone else who was also a loving ‘step dad’ to them while we were together.

As long as the kids are central to every choice and decision you both make, you can make divorce a reasonably painless process. And build a life for you all which makes room for them to learn about healthy relationships, not just the model of an unloving one they’re growing up in now.

@SteveHarringtonsChestHair thank you. It sounds like it works well for you.

My eldest is not daft and knows we're pretty dysfunctional. She's said she never wants to live with a partner and I can't help thinking it's because of the example we set, even though we don't argue in front of them etc.

He just keeps saying we'll talk about it and work it out. But we never do.

Thing is - I don’t know many long married couples with kids that are all they happy in their 40s/approaching 50. I think the long grind of work/children/aging plus the last several years of covid and recent crises….

I think partially the issue is that we are told to expect some ‘in love’ reality from a marriage, over long term. Then there are all the fairy tales and movies. And social media with happy loved-in couples doing fun things.

Next to that - the trenches of real life can feel drab.

A few women I knew followed that route - acted on that general unhappiness and drastically changed their lives. With varying results. More often than not - women lose out in divorce as majority of childcare stays with them. And it isn’t easy to meet someone and trust them to bring them home to your kids for many moms.

While men, even the loser types, go on to meet someone new quite easily.

So - given all that - I’d first make absolutely sure that it’s not a general depression or hormonal fluctuations. If you are in peri stage - I’d see a doctor and fiddle with HTR. I’d also figure out if there isn’t a way you can make changes in your life to do things that make you happy - friends, hobbies, gym, etc. And see if this made a difference on how you feel.

In parallel - I’d think practically about financial aspect, and imagine what your and your kids life would be.
It’s all nice and well to say - they will adjust. But if kids lives would get significantly worse - moving areas, schools; losing their home; activities; holidays - I’d weigh that too. And think about how many years you have until their grow up and leave home.
I don’t think it’s black and white, unfortunately.

I could have written your post op - almost word for word (even down to the fact that eldest dc is not daft and knows it is dysfunctional).

I too worry what influence the Peri-menopause is having. BUT this unhappiness has been going on a long time. I am also mindful of not falling into a fairytale-like trap as I'm prone to this but I'm longing for better connection more than anything. Added to this, I have changed/am changing a great deal and this translates into different dynamics being required in my relationship With this in mind, I've decided I need to connect more with myself to get a proper picture of what connection might look like. I need to start connecting more with friends too and being more authentic, for a long time, I've been guilty of hiding - with very good reasons.

Sorry, no clear cut answers because it sounds like I'm in a very similar place to you.

Watching this thread with interest.

Thank you for the responses.

I feel as though I have a life outside my marriage, I have friends with whom I do all the things one might do with a husband or partner; meals out, walking, cinema, theatre etc. It barely occurs to me to suggest any of things to my husband as the effort to get him to do any of it would take any pleasure away.

Even 'family' activities I mainly just do with the kids and don't count on him.

I've wondered if he has some sort of depression since he never wants to go anywhere or do anything, but he says not.

@Aztecswest it sounds as though we're in v similar positions

@MMmomDD the points you make are exactly what is keeping me put.

I've always felt as though I could just stay like this for the children's security. But it's getting harder.

I think the answer is: when the pain of things staying the same outweighs the fear of doing differently.

Based on my own experience, I think if there is a strong insistent voice deep inside that won't go away no matter how much to try to ignore it, that's a sign that you would be better off making a new life for yourself, despite reduced living standards (which, don't forget, can gradually be improved over time).

Maybe your child's MH would be better out of this sniping unpleasant environment?

OP - I think our generation has the idea of marriage that make it difficult for many marriages to survive.
Back in the day - marriages were created for an economic union. To ensure survival and raising of kids. To create and pass on assets.
Now we added this whole expectation of it also being a meeting of minds; a romantic union; our source of happiness, etc.

So when you say - you do things with friends -meals out, walks, theatre - that you should be doing with H. Maybe it’s not the way to look at it? I think having a rich life with friends is actually great, and it’s good if spouses don’t do everything together.

If you separate - this part of your life won’t change - except that you might need babysitting and/or feel guilty to leave your kids to see friends.

As to his involvement in parenting (or lack of it) - that won’t change. He isn’t likely to be more involved.

The benefit of separating is that you will be able to date. And maybe meet someone better suited. However - as you know - dating with kids isn’t easy. And there are no guarantees you meet anyone.

As to - the only thing that suffers is quality of life - only you can make a judgement if that change is worth it in the short term - while your kids are still at home. Once they leave - it may be a different equation.

@MMmomDDWhat you write is true, and I used to reflect on that a lot when I was married. It was only long after we split up that I realised that happiness with him was not really possible because, in retrospect, it was an unbalanced and deeply abusive relationship. I'm not saying OP's is, but some relationships are easier than others to live contentedly in.

I suppose one question to ask is: Setting aside all concerns about £££ and where/how I can afford to live, does DH enhance my life or make it more difficult? Does he lighten my load, or is he a burden? Am I glad of his company, or does that depend on many unpredictable factors such as his mood?

I suppose one question to ask is: Setting aside all concerns about £££ and where/how I can afford to live, does DH enhance my life or make it more difficult? Does he lighten my load, or is he a burden? Am I glad of his company, or does that depend on many unpredictable factors such as his mood?

Mixed answer to this. He makes my life practically easier and therefore make lifes easier in this way (all male relatives left and not much support in real life). I don't feel glad of his company, no. I'm not sure if this attributed to the perimenopause or not or whether we are just very different people and have grown apart.

The benefit of separating is that you will be able to date. And maybe meet someone better suited. However - as you know - dating with kids isn’t easy. And there are no guarantees you meet anyone.

Do you think this is why a lot of exit affairs happen - people sort of edge their bets until someone else comes along? I'm not condoning this by the way, I'm just saying I can see how this might happen when there could seem to be so much to lose.

Thanks again.

I'll stay for now but this is helpful and I'll continue to ruminate I think. I don't think I have unrealistic expectations re marriage, just that I don't want crushing sadness.

I don't want to be with anyone else, if we ended things that would be so far down my list of priorities as to not even feature.

I am a couple of years post divorce. I was you for a long time prior to my divorce.
Ended up pulling the plug earlier than I thought I would - my hand was forced. I wanted to wait for the kids to be older/leave home. As it happened they were in early secondary school age.
So here is my take.

Divorce was probably the hardest thing I have gone through in my life. It’s crushing and it took all of my strength to not let it break me.

So - i think of you are going that way - you need to have a good reason to put yourself and your kids through it.
Certainly - in situations of abuse, dv - not needing a discussion.
General unhappiness - for me is too vague of a reason. And it can have lots of underlying reasons. And, more importantly - there is no guarantee that divorce will actually make you happier. Your life will become harder; your kids will be affected, etc, And if you have depression - it won’t disappear.

Financial impact of divorce is not to be underestimated. Most people’s lives get worse. For some - much worse.

Exit affairs - I think happen because when people have mentally checked out of their marriages they are mentally open to be moving on. So that happens. Or they are just so lonely they seek out human connection. I don’t think many people start affairs knowingly planning to meet their next partner. It does happen for some.

Dating in your mid/late 40s/50s is on a grim side. Lots of frogs. Very few princes.

jsku Thanks for your honest account. Big question - do you regret it?

I think the answer to this would be dependent on someones expectations of life after divorce for example, finding a different partner (you are happy with) or finding more peace. For me, it's so difficult to think things are 'bad enough' to leave as much of what you written would apply to me.

If only there were such a thing as a crystal ball.

I'm so sorry, OP, that feeling of crushing sadness is soul-destroying.

Try doing all the usual stuff to make life better - set fitness and creative goals, get outside when you can, etc. YouTube is full of 30-day yoga/Pilates programs to start the year with, so it's an ideal time of year to start working towards a brighter future.

If the crushing sadness remains, then quite honestly I would bite the bullet and leave. You might be surprised by your parents' reaction; they, like your children, might have noticed more than you think, and want the best for you.

I've got the added bonus (said sarcastically) of limerance. It is an addiction that has appeared thanks to my traumatic childhood and current state of mind/relationship difficulties and I battle with it daily. I'm really working hard to focus on myself and improve my own life. It shouldn't be this hard.

@Aztecswest

Well, my relationship moved to the ‘bad enough’ category and I had to file to protect myself. So had no choice, really.

And yes, in some ways my life improved, in other - got harder. Co-parenting isn’t something that is working well. Trying to keep kids out disagreements is stressful.
At least I am ok financially, which makes other issues easier to deal with.

I had an exit affair in a way. Less for the sake of it being an ‘affair’, more as a way of having a bit of my own private space
where I could forget about life and unwind. Helped me stay sane in my marriage for the few of the last years.

@Questionsandheartache you said things improved after MC. Where they good? Where they good until 3 years ago?

Life since 2020 has been a bit shit for a lot of people. Are there any external factors at play here?

Can you have a trial separation? We did that as we were arguing all the time. Then we met for a date and the spark was still there. That was ten years ago and we're still happy.

I think it depends on your early relationship. Did you settle or was there genuine fondness? Did you have relationships before marrying?

I read the Gottman book every year so does my husband. We now call each other out if contempt and criticism are displayed. It makes a difference. We also watch out for bids (attempts to repair after a fallout).

But we have similar interests, hobbies, values. I had lived with a couple of people before we met, I knew dh was 85% of what I needed and wanted from a partner and the missing bits I can totally accept. I know the grass is unlikely to be greener.

Jsku I'm sorry to hear you've had such a difficult time and you've given some great advice. But, you had no choice. Some of us in the very unhappy camp but haven't worked out why because suddently our feelings have changed etc. Some of us have changed/are hormones at play, nothing seems clear cut except we know we are not happy but we're not sure how to go about putting it right (to invest more into our relationships or quit). We also know it's a momentus decision to leave and it will be our doing (because our partners aren't doing this either).

I know I'm not in the right place to leave (same doubts as op and various other factors). I seem to be in limbo like you op. I've read on other threads how women have pushed the goal posts out when x happens then it will be the right time etc. and many, many years down the line, they are living with the same feelings and this feels scarey too. It feels depressing because there are no easy answers and no obvious end in sight. We know full well the grass isn't greener but then all the 'what ifs?' come into play. What is going to be the least regret in 20 or so years time?

But none of the reasons for staying seem to be about me loving him or wanting to be with him. Can I get those feelings back?

And this.

Please come back and update op, from time to time. So sorry you find yourself in this situation too. I might p.m you if this is okay as we sound so alike in what we are experiencing.

@Aztecswest

i was in the place you and the OP is for a long time. Couldn’t decide, didn’t know when the right time was, etc. Then something tipped it over.
It has happened to other friends who ended up divorcing.
A good friend said - when the bad of it all outweighs the good for a long enough time - you will know.

Good luck.

Thanks all, sorry I wasn't around last night but haven't disappeared.

@jsku it sounds as though you've had and are still having a hard slog. I kind of feel at the moment that I'd be swapping one set of difficult circumstances for another. And with out the crystal ball option, there's no telling how separated co-parenting would go.

@Eleganz yes they improved after marriage counselling, to the extent we were both making an effort and I don't think either of us were unhappy.

Over the last couple of years his world has got so small, he doesn't go to the office or have any life outside of the house which I think must be awful.

@crossstitchingnana I think a trial separation would mean one of us moving out for a while and that might be financially difficult. A separation within the home wouldn't be noticeably different from now!

@BettyTastica I'd had a long term relationship previously and lived with that person. I don't feel I settled as such.

I'll look up the Gottman book. I suppose part of where I am now is wanting him to say, hey, I've heard this book recommended let's both read it.

Yesterday I told him I thought we might be done, it seemed to finally make him open up and say that he wants to work on things. He talked about things I've been concerned for and that had previously been buried. So I supposed it's good, if we can talk about things, identify areas and work on them maybe there's still a chance to make it bearable.

Sorry for the long post this morning, wanted to try and respond to people.

@Aztecswest I'd be happy for your to pm me, I does sound like were in v similar situations.

The book gives you exercises to do together. It focuses on good things, what initially attracted you to one another. It is called The seven principles of making marriage work.

I'm curious what you think separating will bring to your life and what it is you are really looking for? Is it the loss of romantic connection? Lack of best buddy friendship? Maybe lack of shared experiences and parenting together?

The grass always looks greener but if you can BOTH pin point what your needs are and communicate these openly (and kindly) perhaps progress can be made to reconnect.

OP, can I also suggest some slightly different reading material, so that you can compare and contrast?! It's a book that helped me enormously, I am always recommending it: Daphne Rose Kingma's Coming Apart: Why Relationships End and How to Live Through the Ending of Yours.

This also has some extremely helpful exercises that you can do, either alone or together, to help work out why you came together in the first place and whether those motivations remain.

You talk about his world getting very small, which unfortunately is unlikely to reverse in the other direction as he ages. "Maybe there's still a chance to make it bearable" sounds rather bleak, and I fear that you might be so grateful for any crumb of improvement that this would keep you unhappily in place for the rest of your life.

When we size up our options in these circumstances it seems like a terrific gamble because we cannot guarantee that we will be any happier. But I think if you feel perpetually gloomy and trapped, that is Life's way of telling you to get out and try something different. It might be a rocky ride, but happiness doesn't come on a plate when you carry on just showing up in your own life. Happiness, I've learned, is what you get when you have been through a flaming crucible of suffering and painful choices.

Oh god, there endeth this morning's sermon!! I sound like a nutter!!!!! but that's how I've found it: yes the road ahead is hard, but yes it's worth it, and no you don't look back with anguish at what you've lost. As far as I can tell, I'm certainly not the only one to look back with anguish at how long I left it before daring to take the first steps towards a kinder future.