Sexual coercion in marriage - Can it be forgiven.

[Notsureonusername1]

I am currently in the process of separating from my husband of 12 years Whom I share 3 children with. We’ve had good times in plenty but it’s mostly been quite toxic. Lots of arguments etc.
After being unhappy for so long (have previously separated for pretty much same reasons) and finally giving myself a kick up the ass to ‘work in myself’ and reaching out for therapy I started to see a lot of issues in our relationship I hadn’t previously seen before, such as gaslighting, manipulation and the biggest issue, sexual coercion. All these obviously made the toxic issues in our relationship feel much more understandable to more and see why exactly I have been so unhappy.

my question is really … has anyone been through similar … sexual coercion on a regular basis for many many years… with use of tactics such a guilt, pestering, not listening and continuing, sulking etc and managed to get over it and the resentment caused by it to then continue the relationship?

Im not sure if I’m just scared of all the big life changes coming up or I am actually considering continuing to try but asking anyway.

I am hoping all this makes sense.

My ex tried to coerce me into swinging and in the end he caused me to have a mental breakdown. Run!

Change is scary but being able to go to bed and feeling safe and knowing you won't wake up to him doing anything to you or sulking cos you don't want to have sex with a toxic abusive man is priceless. Don't stay, Please!

@Palmfrond you think you have a better understanding of what is and what isn't sexual coercion than the trained people at woman's aid?

Male arrogance at its best

@Palmfrond

Coercion means obtaining a result by threat of violence, blackmail, or similar. Pestering or guilt tripping do not constitute coercion.

You're absolutely wrong. Examples of sexual coercion include:

▪	Feeling pressured into sexual activity after you&rsquo;ve<a class="break-all" href="https://www.harleytherapy.co.uk/counselling/how-to-say-no-more-effectively.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> said no</a>
▪	Guilt-tripping you into doing things even when you&rsquo;ve made it clear you&rsquo;re afraid
▪	Punishing you if you don&rsquo;t go along with what they want
▪	Manipulating you into feeling bad if you don&rsquo;t want sex when you are unwell, <a class="break-all" href="https://www.harleytherapy.co.uk/counselling/causes-of-exhaustion.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">tired,</a> or<a class="break-all" href="https://www.harleytherapy.co.uk/counselling/injury-and-depression.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> injured</a>
▪	Insulting you in sexual ways or being called sexual names
▪	Making you feel like you owe them sex
▪	Suggesting that bad things will happen if you don&rsquo;t satisfy their sexual desires
▪	Becoming <a class="break-all" href="https://www.harleytherapy.co.uk/counselling/different-types-of-anger.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">angry</a> with you if you refuse to do what they want sexually or refusing to talk to you, sulking, or otherwise making you <a class="break-all" href="https://www.harleytherapy.co.uk/counselling/why-do-i-feel-guilty-all-the-time.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">feel guilty</a>.

Quite aside from the serious (and imo totally unforgivable) issue of sexual coercion, I can't understand why you would consider continuing a relationship you describe as 'mostly toxic' .

Any one of the issues you mention is enough reason to end it asap, even without the sexual coercion.

Or, as it was very well articulated in another post:

Actual question 'should I ignore the fact that my husband is a monster and continue to stay with him, telling myself I have no right to respect, boundaries or my feelings for the rest of my life. And setting this example for my kids to follow'.

No. Fuck no. Times a million billion. With bells on.

@Palmfrond

A barrage of meaningless mumsnet rape accusations is not helpful.

When you hear a woman describe what she calls 'sexual coercion' and goes on to specifically give the example of her partner 'not listening and continuing' do you genuinely not understand that he has raped her?

If your daughter came to you and said her partner was having sex with her, she didn't want to continue having sex but he was 'not listening and continued' how would you describe her partner's behaviour?

@Palmfrond what a lovely life you must lead, believing all these terrible things are just made up

OP he's messed with your head for years, you will be so relieved to be free of him.

No one is owed sex, no, but in a healthy relationship both people should want a similar amount of it. So on the same basis, there's no such thing as sexual coercion because you should want sex with your partner.

What vile nonsense. You don't get to decide how much sex people 'should want' in a relationship. Also, can't you see the absolute lack of logic in your post? You say sexual coercion doesn't exist because you should want sex with your partner? What - every single time he wants it, you have to want it too?! Because otherwise on any day he wants it and you don't, trying to make you would be sexual coercion, wouldn't it? Even in a couple with well-matched sex drives, nobody can guarantee they're always up for it in exactly the same days all the time!

in a healthy relationship both people should want a similar amount of it.

@altmember No because everyone is different. And some men/people are excessively obsessed with sex.

Also trying to force someone into sex via emotional pressure or rape is never ok.

I do however want to retract what I said earlier; it’s actually not important that OP knows what coercion means. What’s important is for her to reach a place of clarity, which will be best achieved by seeking real world help.

She has and professionals have rightly told her it's coercion.

non consensual penetration with fingers (or anything else) is a serious crime, ie assault by penetration.

And when it's with a penis, it's rape.

@Palmfrond

I use the term sexual coercion as this is what I was lead to believe it was after talking to woman’s aid and then another team in the area woman’s aid put me in contact with … I have wondered though because he’s not terrible but will badger, go on, guilt me, strop … often says things like ‘don’t you love me’ ‘if you love me you would’ … sometimes he will just keep trying, a few times putting his fingers into me or himself to try get me ‘in the mood’ as he says, normally after I’ve said no. he will sulk and get angry sometimes if I say no, or tell me how long it’s been like making it a point.

I am staggered you could have read this and still have stated this isn't sexual coercion because it doesn't involve blackmail or threat of violence.

Terrifying.

I don’t really know how to reply to all the comments here

I know I said it was a mostly toxic relationship and I do stand by that… lots of arguments all the time over numerous things but there are some good times and it is 11 plus years of my life afterall!

Im finding separation hard as he goes on at how he will change, that he is changed… one min he says he understands and it makes him sick he acted that way then the next says I’m throwing him away but not trying and just giving up, throwing things back in his face. Then he will apologise and say he is just hurting. I guess I just feel guilty. Some days I feel like I’m doing the right thing and others I’m like this, question everything and debating and I suppose I just wanted to see if things can get better.

…

also just to add, I never said I never wanted sex. In fact I’ve always given it to him whenever he wanted it. I use to always have a good sex drive too.
yes more recently over the years I’ve wanted it less but that’s because I was tired from doing everything … working and the kids and he’d just be on the ps ignoring them come up expecting it. plus then constant groping and grabbing and comments were getting too much. I had told him I didn’t like these things but he still would do them anyway saying I should be happy he wanted me like that and still found me attractive - and again, it’s more of a time and place and at the right time thing … not to mention after always giving it to him or giving in even when I didn’t want it for whatever reason, it kinda makes a person feel shit! I even gave in when I was unwell with covid - we had to stop half way because I couldn’t breathe and yet he still wanted to finish! … yes I let him I know but he was going on and on and it’s just easier but it also made me so angry and upset deep down.
my sex drive may also be lower due to having a hysterectomy for CC in 2019 at 30 - though I don’t think it’s that at all, but who knows.

It has got worse I guess as I’ve wanted it less and I have tried to be more up for it but I just couldn’t force myself anymore.

How he's acted will have made you want sex with him even less OP. Being pressured isn't a turn on (nor is being raped, for that matter.)

You poor thing OP. The idea of him having sex with you and not wanting to stop even though you couldn't breathe from covid is horrific.

He's disgusting and leaving him is going to be the start of a peaceful life where you don't have someone constantly pressuring and confusing you.

He's sexually assaulted and raped you. Be kind to yourself and end the relationship.

You deserve to feel safe

Firstly, I cannot express strongly enough that your ex has been abusive and it IS sexual coercion.

Secondly, he's using the same tactics he used to get sex to get you to take him back. It's all from the same play book. He plays on your guilt to convince you you're in the wrong.

Please spend some more time in therapy, exploring why you feel completely unable to put yourself first, before you make any further decisions about your relationship. What did you see and experience when you were growing up that led you to feel that a man's needs are more important than yours, even when those needs involve abuse of you?

You are a valuable person just because you exist. Your wishes and feelings are important because you have them. You get to decide what happens not him.

Honestly it sounds really awful.

Yes DH wanted sex daily and always initiated BUT there was no sulking or guilt tripping, he pulled his weight with the house and the DC. He way ensured it was ladies first when it came to sex and accepted that I was not up for hours of sex once the kids came along.

So I can say he pestered but none of the rest of it so I never felt coerced.

What you describe is horrific I don't think I could forgive someone the level of resentment I would feel.

Have you ever used the same tactics to obtain sex from someone? Would you ever? How would you feel knowing that you had basically pressured someone into having sex with you? Would you have ever done those things to another person? Never give a man a free pass for behaviour that you yourself would consider to be unthinkable for you to do.

He is a rapist, he didn’t even care that you couldn’t breathe.

Don’t wobble OP, your life will be so much better without him.

Omg that is so sad on your part....he is raping you mental abuse emotional abuse coercive control and he's still doing it by the I'll change crap...he dragged you in nto sex when you were ill for god sake that isn't love it's treating you like a possession nobody who loves someone ignores them struggling to breathe. What message is this giving your children of a normal relationship?

OP what you have described is most definitely coercive behaviour, sexual abuse and rape. Giving in because it is easier to get it over and done with does not constitute consent.

My DH does this whenever we are in bed together. Touches me, puts his hands in my knickers, grabs my boobs, tries to put a finger up me, puts my hand on his dick... even if i have said repeatedly that im not in the mood.

He will badger and go on and on until he gets sex or a blow job. But he does it in a gentle way, nicely if you like, so i often feel guilty and give in. I hate it.

It is coercive and you're right to hate it too.

Oh my love 😞

You're being repeatedly sexually abused by your husband.

Is there anything we can do to help you see that you cannot be happy and healthy in a home, let alone a bed, with a sex offender?

Because that's what he is.

@Mamato3boysand2dogs

Hi OP, I could have wrote your post word for word. I am currently separating too for unrelated reasons. I sort of just (and still am) pushing down what he was like, he rarely hugged and kissed me so that was my attention and form of love which is sad really. 90% of the time I genuinely did want it (high sex drive and like I said the only way to feel close to the ice man) but the 10% I didn't he would sulk.. if he went more than 2 days he would sulk (17yrs together) and yes if he wanted it and I didn't then he just would and I would then just go along with it like you for an easy life. I think I'm starting to unpack how horrible my husband actually is. Hes very very good at playing the nice guy victim in real life, they usually are though aren't they. Only now am I seeing the egg shells I was living on. Mainly with not trusting him though and zero affection.

No. Never. Get free of all this, it will never be ok. Put yourself first

I’m really sorry @Mamato3boysand2dogs that you are going through the same. It’s a really horrible but confusing thing isn’t it. I get annoyed/mad all the time but then I also feel so guilty which often leads to me giving in. Maybe not the first night he tries but normally by the second. What’s worse is he knows what he’s doing as once after he was like - well at least you know your get a few days break now. He would always say that if he didn’t ‘encourage’ me like he did (grabbing, gripping, fingers up me, entering me whilst badgering etc) that he’d never get it, I would try explain that if he tried just being a bit more loving and attentive in other ways, date nights without expectations, actually sit at the table and eat with me, the odd little gesture or just spend time with kids, help around the house, not ignoring me all night then coming up once I’m asleep and waking me for it and then being annoyed when I say no etc etc that maybe I would want to be intimate with him but he would just say that why should he put in effort to get nothing at the end of it. A few times he has ‘changed’ and ‘ tried’ but after a week and half he’s declared it too long to be putting in effort to still not get anything.

recently I realised I had started just zoning out during and that he wasn’t even noticing, sometimes I’d just go on all 4’s so he couldn’t see me and just cry through it - just because I was tired, fed up and just couldn’t deal with the way he’d look at me during it. He’d look at me and kiss me like it was all full of love and I just couldn’t get how he felt that when it was me just being worn down.
so many times over the years I have communicated with him how I feel, what I need for things to be better but it always fell on deaf ears.
even things like telling him I really hate it when he sucked really hard on my nipples would just be dismissed with - but I like it or woman are meant to like it and then he’d just carry on.

I wish I could have seen sooner though how much it was damaging me. I use to tell myself it was just a man thing and I just needed to try harder and in the process I feel like I have broken every part of myself.
i have spent years struggling with depression and anxiety and even anger- I always felt angry with him and over such stupid little things and couldn’t understand as it’s not who I am and I’ve realised it all comes down to this.

yet I say all this and I’m still really struggling with whether I am doing the right thing.
I don’t know if it’s because maybe I do still love him or because he’s all I’ve known since I was like 17.

Wow that was long, so sorry