Advice on dealing with toxic mother and sticking to boundaries

[RumHam]

I don't want to use the label narcissistic when she has never been diagnosed with NPD but I truly believe she may have it. I have been in and out of the MH team services from childhood due to BPD, CPTSD, OCD and dissociative disorders.

My mother has always shown toxic traits but after losing dad last year suddenly, it has become unbearable. She now lives with my sister and we are both struggling to cope. Today everything reached boiling point for me. We took her out and set boundaries about what we were doing today for her day out and made it clear it didn't involve shopping. This was because she overspends. She will spend £200 every week on food shopping and not eat 90% of it, it all goes in the bin and she ends up getting a takeaway most nights and my sister just goes along with it to keep the peace. She will also spend £100+ every week on clothes and never wear them or wear them once and then bin them so we never take her shopping unless she actually needs something now especially now as money is tight and my sister is struggling with bills and needs all the support she can get from mum, so we aren't wanting to waste money. We told her this today and she said that was fine. We had our day out and were sitting in a nice little pub, having a laugh and she asked if we could go shopping (a big shop, like full weeks groceries) and my husband said "no, we made a deal and my sister said you don't need anything" and she absolutely roared full force "you are a bad bastard!!!!!" at the top of her voice and everyone turned around and then it was "you're no son of mine! You do nothing for me!" and then I got hell for sticking to the boundaries. We got home and I told my sister and my mum lied through her teeth saying she never said that and would never call someone that horrible word and that I am lying through my teeth despite my husband and friend who was with us backing me up.

This was the first time I had seen my mum in a few weeks as I had a bad psoriatic arthritis flare. The worst one I've had since it all started and even though she knew I couldn't walk for the pain, she saw the pic I sent my sister of my swollen foot and knee - all I got from mum was "you don't know what a flare up is!". She has RA and according to her, only she is allowed to have a flare up. I got hell from her for cancelling days out due to that flare yet she cancels on me with an hours notice and that's absolutely fine.

The worst though is with grief. Whenever me and my sister talk about dad, all she says is "how do you think I feel? He was my husband! You act like you both are the only ones who lost him!" which is untrue. We have been there for her 24/7. She has never once asked us how we are doing and even said we had a cheek to be going for grief counselling when she isn't going when it even though it was her husband. All she ever talks about with dad as well is his money. She even says it loud in pubs "he left me a lot of money!". I wish I was joking but it really is the only thing of him she mentions. He wasn't a millionaire or anything like that and the way she is spending the money, its not going to last.

Me and my sister are so drained. We can't do right for doing wrong. This is just a tiny taste of what mum is like. She has been like this all our lives so its not an older age thing and grief certainly isn't helping but its not really changed her much at all tbh as she said similar things in the past too.

Have you ever experienced a parent who was similar? I find it hard to keep boundaries and usually give in to just keep the peace but it really is taking its toll on my physical and MH as well as my marriage and relationship with my sister.

Any advice you could give would be much appreciated x

She sounds crackers never mind narcissistic! I’m laughing at the thought of shouting “you bad bastard!” That’s like a child swearing!

Anywya, what would happen if you just stopped seeing her?

Sorry you are having to deal with this. How is it affecting your relationship with your sister?

Hi guys, thanks for your replies. In some ways, its made my relationship with my sister better as we are both in the same boat and can relate to the feelings we are having both with grief and dealing with mum but its also putting a strain on us too because she is always stressed and often says I don't do enough for them. She takes it back when she has calmed down at least. Mum never does that when she says something nasty.

As for not seeing her again, I couldn't do that to my sister, to not give her a break from mum at times. I do feel like I have to talk to my mum like I am a carer or something like "Hi Mrs so so, how are you today?", "nice weather isn't it?" - shallow small talk rather than indepth stuff like what I should be able to talk to a mum about. Even when I talk about something deep like grief, she literally cuts right through me with something trival like "did you see my new earrings?!"

It's her money, why are you setting boundaries about her going shopping?

Because she doesn't have much money left and only has a pension coming once she spends the little inhertitance has and she buys food that my sister has no room for at home in her fridge freezer so it literally all goes to waste. I can't stand by and watch her waste so much money, food etc. I don't mind her spending her money, of course not, but she is absolutely reckless and in this climate she can't afford to be and I don't want her to learn that the hard way.

Why is she now living with your sister?

The boundaries came into play about 3 months ago. We took her and my sister for their shopping on the Monday and it was a full food shop and then we took mum out on the Thursday again. We stopped in at Asda and she got some stuff. I didn't go round with her so didn't see how much she bought until we got home and my sister started crying with stress saying we don't room for all this stuff, why did you buy it?! That started a huge argument and my mum actually threw some of the food in anger so we had to clear that up. Some of the food went to us, some to a neighbour and some ended up going in the bin. Ever since then, the deal has been when we take mum out, we don't go shopping unless she actually needs stuff and my sister agrees that they need something. Mum goes into town 3 times a week so she is always shopping. The boundaries are only set when we take her out unless she genuinely needs something. We try and take her for days out, lunches etc instead.

She is now living with my sister because she couldn't cope living on her own after dad died. She suffers from panic attacks, agoraphobia etc and used to struggle when dad was away at work so we knew she would most likely not manage on her own. She gave it a try though and it didn't work out.

I should add that the shopping boundary is just one. The main boundary I need to stick with is the general one of standing my ground and not giving in just to keep the peace. She will call me names, say I do nothing for her, even has said that is finished with me and will never speak to me again and then I will just give in and say fine - I'll do whatever she asked for even if I am ill, have an appointment etc, just to keep the peace and that is maybe ok sometimes but I do that like 99% of the time and she shouldn't be getting her way after talking to people the way she does. If I spoke to her or my dad the way she speaks to me now even at 30, I would be ashamed!

It all sounds very stressful. I feel for you. My mum is very trying and I struggle with boundaries too.
It's unlikely yours will change now so is there a way you can find to manage how you feel.
I used to use the Calm app and had some counselling many moons ago.
Alternatively, can you help mum find a hobby other than shopping? Are there are any groups she can go to?

We take her ten pin bowling once a week and she loves it. Other than that, she isn't interested in anything. The local council offered her a befriender service who could take her out for coffees and things like that but she said no because of her panic attacks and doesn't like to be around people she doesn't know and also of course she said that we wanted to set that up for her so we could get peace from her and that we hate her and all that jazz. We really can't do right for doing wrong. We think mum just likes to spend money for the sake of it, spending gives her a high but she never uses the very vast majority of anything she buys and it all goes to waste.

I think you need to pull right back. Reduce contact. Going shopping, setting boundaries, arguing, crying. .Why are you even in a pub with her? Minimal contact gives her less opportunity to inflict damage on you. You are doing it because its all you know. Get a good psychotherapist who is good on family dynamic stuff and go grey rock with her.

I was thinking of one of those befriending services too. Someone who's job it is to be nice and let her have a good moan
The thing is, nothing you do will be right so can you continue like that?
As poster above suggests, you may need to be harsh to be kind...to yourself.
I'm currently not on speaking terms with my mum and it suits me fine. Sometimes it's too much. And I'm from a culture where it's not really the done thing to not 'honour and obey' your folks.
Your peace of mind is worth more. Step back a but x

Thanks again everyone for your comments, I truly do appreciate them all.

It's all been causing friction in my marriage too. We are solid overall but my mum is the main thing we argue over. Mainly because husband is sick of how he is treated by her, sick of everything we do not being valued and just how much it's all getting to me. He's a very chill guy and can't see it bothers me so much. I physically shake with anger and cry with it. Even now I'm remembering my 30th bday a few months ago and I'm shaking with anger.

Me and my sister have our bdays just a day apart but she's older. We always celebrate our bday on the one day, share a party etc. So this year when we were getting the cheesy video of blowing our candles as we always do, mum started. She was asking why am I not next to yous in the video? And everyone explained because they are the bday girls and they blow out the candles and she wouldn't have it. She kept saying she wasn't wanted (tbh in that moment she wasn't!) And that she is worthless and we don't love her. We ended up just saying come over and she sat in the middle and you can see the smugness on her face. I've got the whole thing on video. From her starting her crap, to her getting her way and to me and my sister just looking at each other and rolling our eyes and half heartedly blowing out our candles. It was all about her on my 30th. She decided the food, the music. It wasn't my party at all. All the pics from that day are of her. She should have been wearing the party sash, not me. It sounds so silly but that did hurt and it was my first bday without my dad too.

@RumHam I haven’t any advice as this sounds like an utter nightmare and a total emotional roller coaster. I don’t see how your DS can have your mum living with her as it will destroy her own mental health. Does your mum own her own home?

Time for a care home, perhaps? I think she’s in the too hard basket.

Help your sister rehome her in her own place; then both of you take a step back as you deserve to live your own lives.

Before she moved in with DS, she stayed in a sheltered housing complex with dad. After dad died, we tried to get her to stay there but she couldn't cope. We tried baby steps by making her stay alone during the day and we'd stay at night and then tried her on own all day and night and she called us in a panic and would say she was dying and would pull the emergency cords and each time, it was just a panic attack. I think deep down DS would be relieved if mum went to a home but couldn't live with herself if she put her in one. We've spoken about it before and she says she couldn't do it.

I sometimes wish these problems were caused by her age but she's been like this my entire life and I wouldn't say she's got worse as she's got older, I think I just notice it more now as I get older and understand just how toxic and manipulative she can be. She can do crocodile tears perfectly. An example was when our uncle died and a family friend called to say how sorry they were and they were going to come up and visit it. She put on such a powerful display on the phone that she set me off in tears listening to her and I rushed over to comfort her. She passed the phone to someone else and I asked if she was ok and she laughed and said yes, she just didn't want that person to come and visit. The pain she displayed was so genuine and ever since then I've never trusted her tears.

She tries to control me and DS grief about dad. Whenever I break down about him, she says that I am stopping him from being at peace and I need to move on because I can't bring him back. I can imagine if I said that to her, she'd kill me for being so heartless! She told me she doesn't feel guilty for having fun after losing him because she's getting old and needs to live her life. I said "I agree. Grief is life long and you need to find fun when you can through the journey. I don't feel guilty when I have days of fun because I'll carry this pain forever" or something along those lines - I was agreeing with her and she full on snapped at me saying "you act like you were the only one to lose him! He was my husband!!!!!!!". Said that after I agreed with her! She wanted me to stop posting his pics on FB too coz it was hurting her but I told her no. She can hide my posts or unfriend me if she doesn't want to see them as it's comforting to me and DS to keep his memory alive

I hate how much I let her get to me. I feel like I'm the bad one for coming on here looking for advice even though logically I know what she's done is wrong.

Firstly, nobody can “make” you feel anything. You are letting her manipulate her. (Admittedly you have been conditioned to.) Try and see her for what she is… A manipulative, resentful, sour old woman. She is probably much nicer to strangers than family. She needs a nursing home.

100%! She is absolutely lovely to people she knows and horrible to her family. Everyone thinks she's this sweet old lady, typical caring granny like woman until you get to know her properly.
She's super friendly and always gives her 'friends' £10/20 every time she runs into them in the pubs or in town so no wonder she is well liked! She always goes on about how much people think the world of her

Could she have signs of dementia? How old is she?
I think it sounds like your sister needs her living elsewhere, at least if she's supported by professionals your sister can have a decent life

She's 78. She recently had a full physical and mental check up and everything came back fine on the memory front and physically all she has wrong with her is diabetes and arthritis. It definitely seems to be her personality that's the problem as it's been life long from the stories I heard from dad about her. He didn't have an easy time with her either. She's definitely all there and round the corner as the saying goes on the memory front at least.

She does seem to have a personality disorder of some kind.

From your description she is what is known as a “street angel, house devil”, great in public and horrible to the family in private.

If you’re willing to keep putting up with her behaviour then your marriage may be the cost. If that’s not what you want then you MUST massively reduce contact. From what you’ve said though she’d never respect a single boundary so then I’d consider cutting her off.

I did that to my mother after years of low level abuse escalated into a situation that meant I knew she would never ever change and never ever treat me with respect… so I was done. It was actually easier than I thought as over time any positive feelings I’d had for her had faded to duty and obligation then turned to active dislike. My life, my DH and kids are way less stressed too now that we know there is no more.