Advice on dealing with toxic mother and sticking to boundaries

[RumHam]

I don't want to use the label narcissistic when she has never been diagnosed with NPD but I truly believe she may have it. I have been in and out of the MH team services from childhood due to BPD, CPTSD, OCD and dissociative disorders.

My mother has always shown toxic traits but after losing dad last year suddenly, it has become unbearable. She now lives with my sister and we are both struggling to cope. Today everything reached boiling point for me. We took her out and set boundaries about what we were doing today for her day out and made it clear it didn't involve shopping. This was because she overspends. She will spend £200 every week on food shopping and not eat 90% of it, it all goes in the bin and she ends up getting a takeaway most nights and my sister just goes along with it to keep the peace. She will also spend £100+ every week on clothes and never wear them or wear them once and then bin them so we never take her shopping unless she actually needs something now especially now as money is tight and my sister is struggling with bills and needs all the support she can get from mum, so we aren't wanting to waste money. We told her this today and she said that was fine. We had our day out and were sitting in a nice little pub, having a laugh and she asked if we could go shopping (a big shop, like full weeks groceries) and my husband said "no, we made a deal and my sister said you don't need anything" and she absolutely roared full force "you are a bad bastard!!!!!" at the top of her voice and everyone turned around and then it was "you're no son of mine! You do nothing for me!" and then I got hell for sticking to the boundaries. We got home and I told my sister and my mum lied through her teeth saying she never said that and would never call someone that horrible word and that I am lying through my teeth despite my husband and friend who was with us backing me up.

This was the first time I had seen my mum in a few weeks as I had a bad psoriatic arthritis flare. The worst one I've had since it all started and even though she knew I couldn't walk for the pain, she saw the pic I sent my sister of my swollen foot and knee - all I got from mum was "you don't know what a flare up is!". She has RA and according to her, only she is allowed to have a flare up. I got hell from her for cancelling days out due to that flare yet she cancels on me with an hours notice and that's absolutely fine.

The worst though is with grief. Whenever me and my sister talk about dad, all she says is "how do you think I feel? He was my husband! You act like you both are the only ones who lost him!" which is untrue. We have been there for her 24/7. She has never once asked us how we are doing and even said we had a cheek to be going for grief counselling when she isn't going when it even though it was her husband. All she ever talks about with dad as well is his money. She even says it loud in pubs "he left me a lot of money!". I wish I was joking but it really is the only thing of him she mentions. He wasn't a millionaire or anything like that and the way she is spending the money, its not going to last.

Me and my sister are so drained. We can't do right for doing wrong. This is just a tiny taste of what mum is like. She has been like this all our lives so its not an older age thing and grief certainly isn't helping but its not really changed her much at all tbh as she said similar things in the past too.

Have you ever experienced a parent who was similar? I find it hard to keep boundaries and usually give in to just keep the peace but it really is taking its toll on my physical and MH as well as my marriage and relationship with my sister.

Any advice you could give would be much appreciated x

This thread has been really useful for me. @Pepsipepsi I'd never heard of FOG. I'm going to read up.
Also will be having a look at the Stately Homes threads too.

OP as someone currently not speaking with my mum. I don't have any words but as someone else has said. You have one life only. That thought, more recently has influenced a few key decision and life choices for me recently. Hope you can find a way forward that works for you and you sister too x

Op Im sure you worn out from it all. They are hard work. I had step back I was mentally worn down. Strict boundaries with these people

what you’re describing isn’t normal. If you had a child behaving like this, you’d be getting an assessment of need and probably have more than one diagnosis. She’s of another generation where things weren’t picked up and there was only normal and wrong.

using words like lying, manipulation, attention seeking (other posters) only tell half the story and they have a moralistic overtime, that is very hard to sort through from the position of a child, even an adult child.

What I’m trying to say is that I think a great deal of your problem is that you’re stuck in a paradigm where you’re judging (or assessing) your mum’s actions against a norm that doesn’t apply and you’re carrying a huge emotional burden because of that.

If you think of taking your mum out in terms of being a carer with a difficult sn client, it will give you a different perspective on the situation. I don’t know how this comes across in text with no tone or facial expression but it’s meant kindly. It’s a mental technique I used myself a few times to take myself out of my childhood issues and meet my df’s needs. When you’re not emeshed in a child perspective, it’s easier to hold good boundaries (and holding boundaries is a loving kind thing).

Getting assessment and help and services at her age, is a huge undertaking, maybe impossible. With my df we were eventually able to discuss him with care staff in terms of his undiagnosed autism because other family members were diagnosed and it helped contextualise some of his difficulties and get help and compassion (when he was driving it all away). But he would never have accepted it for himself and he denied himself years of help and support.

I’m hoping that in sharing this, it might help a little. But it might not and I hope it’s not offensive. You’re in an awful no man’s land where she has agency and independence (rightly) but really needs more help than she can get or accept and you’re just trying to manage a really difficult situation.

I’m not keen on the way narcissism gets used online because it is much more complex an issue than needing permission to walk away from a bad person. And in many cases it’s used as a trendy word to mean “mad and bad”. Walking away isn’t always an option anyway, particularly if you know a sibling will be left with the burden.

Sometimes it IS a necessity too. So there’s no judgement from me on that. It’s just that online you can be left feeling that your options are doormat/martyr or walk away. But caring for elderly relatives, even wonderful ones, can get very challenging.

@RumHam you can see that when you had a complete non-negotiable (deciding with DH not to have kids) how your mum went into total ballistic mode throwing every kind of abuse at you to change your mind, and you didn’t. Everything in that situation was focused on what SHE wanted (you and your DH and your wants and needs were irrelevant to her) and she did everything in her power to make you change your mind, but you held the line. That is a boundary.

Do you see now the extent she will go to get you to cave?

You must understand that how she is with every boundary, she ignores them and will hurl herself at them like a banshee if you attempt to hold firm.

You and your sister have no life when she is around as she sucks all the life out of you, with her self-focused insistence that she get her way at all times. The best way to understand her emotionally is that she is literally stuck as a two year old. Two years olds want what they want, they do not have the emotional development to negotiate or compromise, developmentally they see the world as literally revolving around them. Anyone that stops them doing and behaving exactly as they want is bad. They also expect 24/7 care and someone being there to parent them (which is age appropriate at 2) and yet also expect total control and to call all the shots (which parents have to gradually teach them is not going to happen, they cannot stay a helpless baby forever you gets all their needs met). This is where your mum is, and she is NEVER going to change. It’s not your fault and there’s a absolutely nothing you can do about it. The only constructive thing is for you and your sister to save yourselves and your sanity. You do not owe her anything .

Erect all the boundaries to be as solid as when you made the decision to not have children. That is exactly what you need to do about everything in your life and stop letting her dismantle your physical and psychological boundaries. Move her out of your sister’s house and both of you should go NO CONTACT.

You and your sister have just as much value and worth as your mother, your lives are NOT to be laid down in serving her caprices and complete emotional immaturity and self-centeredness.

** apologies for typos!

You only get one life OP.
Harden your heart.
As a pp said, treat her as if you are a professional and she a difficult client. Help your sister to do the same. Maybe after a while you could help to rehome your mum, somewhere you can both visit regularly but also close the door and leave. So that you can be the independent adults you both should be.

Who I feel most sorry for though is my sister. She's her legal carer now

Sorry, @RumHam but I'm not sure what you mean about your sister being her legal carer - can you explain what you mean?

Mum is her registered carer with DWP and gets carers allowance

*sister is her registered carer with DWP and gets carers allowance for mum

I fully understand where you are coming from, 82 yo mum with health issues that require lots of tablets and memory loss. Genuinely does not see how much effort my sister goes to looking after her as well as working. My sister is in a similar position to your sister.

I try to be professional when I am with her and as patient as I can be, rather than emotional ( don’t always manage it!). I have insisted she has a carer once a week because I live a long way away, just to make sure she is OK.

My lovely, patient husband has had enough of her coming up every couple of weeks to give my sister a bit of a break, and I have accepted I need to minimise her disruptive influence on our lives and go down and visit her instead. Could this be something you do- keep your husband out of the dynamic as much as possible? I figured my son and husband don’t need to be at her beck and call too.
All I can offer you is solidarity in stress.

I see what you mean, but she hasn't signed her life away, and if it isn't working, then it isn't working.

If you don't want to go no contact, you need to go low contact and use the grey rock technique with her. Don't involve yourself emotionally with her AT ALL. Don't try and fix or change or help her you can't, and the sooner you accept that the happier you'll be. Don't give her antics attention by taking her seriously. Don't talk about personal things, keep it all surface level. If she attacks you verbally, you leave don't put up with any more abuse, you don't deserve it.

Ugghhh didn't mean to do the strikethrough.... Always accidentally doing that!

Your mother (who is not worthy of the term) wants to keep you both as her daughters around to further abuse and otherwise mistreat. This is really why she will not entertain anything like a day care centre or any of the other things being suggested; she wants you two to continue to bend to her will and do it all for her.

It is not your fault she is like this and neither of you made her that way.
You will ultimately need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. Neither your sister or you owe your mother anything, least of all a relationship here.

I would check this with the council but I do not think your sister is her carer in any legal sense.

Deal with your fear, obligation and guilt through therapy (BACP are good) and get her out of your day to day life for good. At the very least read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward.

@RumHam I too am left with the narc parent. My Dad died earlier this year. I miss him. Whilst I did idolise him mainly because he was a kind man, he was ultimately a weak man who stayed with a woman who mentally abused one of her kids for years. Processing having one narc parent is hard but so is having to understand the other one who didn’t abuse but didn’t stop it either. Particularly when one child is treated very differently to the other. Now my Dad doesn’t need me I’ve reduced contact with my mother from 7 days to 30mins per week. My mental health has never been better. My marriage has also never been better. Put yourself first. Your mother doesn’t deserve you or your time.

Hi everyone, I thought give an update. Over the last month I've been reading up about the troubles I think my mum suffers from and realising that I have to change to approach to her because she won't ever change. Dr Ramani's videos on YouTube have been a big help.

As you can imagine, things have been hard on the run up to Christmas with mum and it all came to a head today. She called me out the blue (literally only calls me when she wants something, if I didn't call her I'd never hear from her) and she asked me to drop off her friends Xmas cards. I told her we could do it on Friday as me and my sis were due to go to the salon and that's just round the corner from her friends house. She said no, that's too late (even though it's still before Xmas) and she roared down the phone saying I do nothing for her and that "I was only asking!". No she wasn't, she was demanding. The first words out her mouth weren't even hello or how are you, it was straight to "I want you to do a favour for me". You don't flip when someone doesn't do a favour for you, you flip when they don't meet your demands. I then got a message from my sister an hour later saying mum doesn't want me and hubby over on 23rd and she will leave my presents at the door and I can leave theirs there! Me and my sis were due to go to the salon together then back to hers for a takeaway and opening pressies since we wouldn't see each other on Xmas day but that's all off now. Sis even cancelled my hair appt. That was my Xmas pressie from her. I don't know if she cancelled it because she's in a mood with me or because mum played the "you can't go to the salon and leave me alone!" card. I managed to get the appt back thankfully and will just pay for it myself.

There's been other things recently like when I fell down the stairs and ended up at A&E. Thankfully nothing was broken but I got a huge fright and some nasty bruises. Most parents would say "are you ok?", "How the hell did you manage to fall?!" Or something when they found out. What did my mum actually say?!..."I'm ill too today. I'm constipated". I wish I were making that up but that's what she said when I told her.

I'm staring to realise that my mum is the problem but a bigger problem to my happiness is me and my responses to her and I am sincerely working on it. I've learned about the FOG cycle too and it makes so much sense.

I'm sad we couldn't be a family on Christmas day but I've accepted it. Me and my husband will have a day to ourselves and drama free.

Sad to say that I'm yet another woman posting on here that has a mother exactly like yours. I've so many instances to recount, since I was a child, where she's acted like the complete narcissist she is. Everything has ALWAYS been about her, and the sulking when it isn't...fuck me, it's unbelievable. And has only got worse as she's got older.

My mother ripped through the equity she got when my father left her and the house was sold within 6 months. I think she honestly thought that myself and my two brothers would then take up the financial slack...and she was so angry when it became clear that none of us were willing (or in the case of two of us, unable) to do so. She ended up having to do a 'runner' from the flat she'd rented (and had spent nearly £1K on putting carpets in...and this was 30 years ago) because she owed so much rent. She ended up living there less than a year.

28 years ago I took the decision that the only way I could cope mentally was to get as far away from her as possible...I moved to the other side of the world, been here ever since....that was after my own divorce when I was just 24, I'd tried to kill myself. The only comment my mother made the first time I had an appointment with a psychiatrist, when I got home from a very gruelling session her first comment was 'I suppose you've been bitching about me'... I've been having treatment for bipolar for 23 years and C-PTSD for 5. I've never had a single moment of emotional support from my mother in my life.

In that 28 years I've seen my mother twice - at this point in time I've not seen her for nearly 14 years....she's 81. I'm very low contact with her, I call her on average every 2 months or so. My older brother (who also lives on the other side of the world from her) doesn't call her anymore, since she got rid of her landline. He sends an email on her birthday and Christmas, that's it. My younger brother still lives in the same city as her, and she told me the last time I spoke to her that he is going to be claiming the Oz equivalent of Carers Allowance and moving back in with her when his current tenancy runs out in 6 months time. I personally think he's insane, but he's a man over 50, it's his decision. As she's sexist as hell on top of everything, she's never treated my brothers to as much shit as she has me, her only daughter. I don't feel any guilt about my brother's decision.

I know my solution is the most extreme, but I personally can't recommend it highly enough.

Don't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.

Is there a glimmer of dark humour in that story? If so, good for you.
Enjoy your Christmas, detached from the drama. I’m sure your DP is relieved.

@RumHam how are you?

I have a similar mother. My dad died many years ago.

She has learned helplessness and is unable to problem solve.

Never asks how I am and if on the rarer ocassion she does, relates my experience to her family member or neighbour. 'Oh thats like Claire, she had that'

Idolises neighbours, people who do nothing for her. Heavily invests in insignificant people, mainly based on their looks.

Shows no compassion. Very critical about the way people look. I am v aware I am only in favour at the moment bec I am slim due to chemo and have great hair due to a wig.

Gaslights. If I say 'you said I was useless' she will deny it. Will say 'I need to record what is said' and acusses me of lying. Punishes me for any personal slight anyone else gives her.

Takes zero interest in my life yet makes sure I am aware of how much she idolises other people

Gets a rage if I dont adhere to the conversations she wants to speak about.

Has unspoken expectations of me I cant achieve. Throws it back at me months later 'You were a bit impatient with me in Boots 6 montbs ago. I expected better' or 'I didnt really enjoy myself at Claires house a year ago. I was a bit upset you took me' and that would be the 1st time I knew.

She has told me numerous times 'you could have done more' and then denies saying it..

I grey rock her. I am the most boring and just go along with her agenda. I no longer defend myself or seek approval. I ask her once and dont try to persuade her to do things. If she says no I just move on. This is her problem not mine. I ensure my family know about her too and I dont listen to 'but she is your mum' nonsence

I am also seeking help from social services. I dont emotionally involve myself

@Greyandrare123 that sounds exhausting. I'm glad you're starting to be kinder to yourself.

I haven't read the whole thread but something I haven't seen mentioned is that your sister, by being your mother's chief enabler, might be part of the problem. She needs to establish boundaries with her mother, too.