Advice on dealing with toxic mother and sticking to boundaries

[RumHam]

I don't want to use the label narcissistic when she has never been diagnosed with NPD but I truly believe she may have it. I have been in and out of the MH team services from childhood due to BPD, CPTSD, OCD and dissociative disorders.

My mother has always shown toxic traits but after losing dad last year suddenly, it has become unbearable. She now lives with my sister and we are both struggling to cope. Today everything reached boiling point for me. We took her out and set boundaries about what we were doing today for her day out and made it clear it didn't involve shopping. This was because she overspends. She will spend £200 every week on food shopping and not eat 90% of it, it all goes in the bin and she ends up getting a takeaway most nights and my sister just goes along with it to keep the peace. She will also spend £100+ every week on clothes and never wear them or wear them once and then bin them so we never take her shopping unless she actually needs something now especially now as money is tight and my sister is struggling with bills and needs all the support she can get from mum, so we aren't wanting to waste money. We told her this today and she said that was fine. We had our day out and were sitting in a nice little pub, having a laugh and she asked if we could go shopping (a big shop, like full weeks groceries) and my husband said "no, we made a deal and my sister said you don't need anything" and she absolutely roared full force "you are a bad bastard!!!!!" at the top of her voice and everyone turned around and then it was "you're no son of mine! You do nothing for me!" and then I got hell for sticking to the boundaries. We got home and I told my sister and my mum lied through her teeth saying she never said that and would never call someone that horrible word and that I am lying through my teeth despite my husband and friend who was with us backing me up.

This was the first time I had seen my mum in a few weeks as I had a bad psoriatic arthritis flare. The worst one I've had since it all started and even though she knew I couldn't walk for the pain, she saw the pic I sent my sister of my swollen foot and knee - all I got from mum was "you don't know what a flare up is!". She has RA and according to her, only she is allowed to have a flare up. I got hell from her for cancelling days out due to that flare yet she cancels on me with an hours notice and that's absolutely fine.

The worst though is with grief. Whenever me and my sister talk about dad, all she says is "how do you think I feel? He was my husband! You act like you both are the only ones who lost him!" which is untrue. We have been there for her 24/7. She has never once asked us how we are doing and even said we had a cheek to be going for grief counselling when she isn't going when it even though it was her husband. All she ever talks about with dad as well is his money. She even says it loud in pubs "he left me a lot of money!". I wish I was joking but it really is the only thing of him she mentions. He wasn't a millionaire or anything like that and the way she is spending the money, its not going to last.

Me and my sister are so drained. We can't do right for doing wrong. This is just a tiny taste of what mum is like. She has been like this all our lives so its not an older age thing and grief certainly isn't helping but its not really changed her much at all tbh as she said similar things in the past too.

Have you ever experienced a parent who was similar? I find it hard to keep boundaries and usually give in to just keep the peace but it really is taking its toll on my physical and MH as well as my marriage and relationship with my sister.

Any advice you could give would be much appreciated x

Op they very draining at her age.. mine is 81 and hard work. I stay away for 6 wks last year over how she treated me. I decided am grown adult not taking this shit (49). She is more thankful now when u do things. Keep boundaries tight less visits. Nightmare at times agree

She is an arch manipulator and a complete narcissist. A delight to her friends, and utterly despicable to her family.

Your poor sister is getting the brunt of it all, and it is really telling that she says she can't cope with the idea of putting her in a home. You are both right in the middle of the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt).

Please look up FOG and see whether that seems relevant to you.

It strikes me that all these panic attacks are deliberately manipulative and are just her controlling other people's behaviour so she remains the centre of attention at all times.

You don't have to put up with being abused like that just because she is your mother.

Why on earth do you let her make her issues yours?

it was a big mistake moving her out of sheltered accommodation! You are not her mother, she isn’t your child and you are not responsible for her mental health and nor can you ever fix her by trying to take her bowling or out for lunch numerous times a week

you are not her carer, you are not her punch bag and you have got to stop pandering to her!

she is controlling you like a puppet, you must stand up for yourself please please see a therapist who can help you do that

She’s a nasty piece of work

My mum has this mild side if her thats similar with the how do you think I feel nonsense. But she's not an overspending type etc. She can be cold and not easy at all and that gas been hard over the years so what you are going through is horrendous.

Lying. Anger bursts..reckless spending. Broken relationships with family and playing the victim and always the worst one off. Not being able to empathise with your pain or illness and trying to force the attention back onto how much harder life is for her.

I understand because my ex boyfriend was a very similar type. All his family had walked away. I describe it as he emotionally slaps everyone around the fave then wonders why they wall away holding their face in shock. He's his own worst enemy. I had it all with him burning through my savings. Stealing. Mixing with dodgy people. Exes texting him. Other women. Sexual issues. Housing issues. Family issues. Health issues. Drug issues. Health issues..Work issues. Stuck in the past going round and round in a circle like a broken record!

The truth is they don't change but they continue to make those around them poorly and break down. Now I understand it. Because walking away from someone you love hurts. It's been 8 months since I saw him last and it still hurts. I still grieve and go over a million things. Piecing together all the mess and all the lies. The selfishness. Its impossible. Do you know what leaving feels like.... devastation and relief. It's a very 50/50 emotion. One of the hardest things sometimes is to say.

I love you and it truly hurts me to see your struggles and seeing that you can not find a way to live and be happy but I can't walk this road with you anymore because there's no balance. I'll go love you from a distance but we are done.

These people have a funny way of breaking your heart and infuriating you at the same time. But you either choose yourself or you choose to loose yourself to them. My ex has added his dad's exes and his brothers exes to his Facebook. He's added people linked to me. Then he writes status updates like

"My so called family just talk about me but are never there for me" "the people who are supposed to love me just walk away yet wanna know me when I'm good"

This usually gains him sympathy from people online who haven't seen him for years and dont know him. Yet his family and exes know that he's alone for his behaviour.

Lying is one of their top games. Your mum needs cutting off. She's a narcisstic horrible woman who abuses her children!!

She is doing this stuff because you let her.
You know she is a lying manipulator and yet you carry on believing her and hoping for something different
She is the scorpion and you are the frog, she won’t change and you know what she is so stop hoping for anything else and being upset when you don’t get it.
If you expect the worst you won’t end up disappointed when you get it

Thank you all again for all your replies. I really do appreciate them all and I'm so sorry to hear many of you are in or have been in the same boat with partners or parents.

I never realised just how deep me and my sister are in when it comes to her manipulation. If this was someone else's story, I'd tell them to run and good riddance to the mum for treating her kids that way! Run and don't look back! But when it's actually my story, I have that nagging guilt, even that silly hope that one day she will change even though I know she won't. I really do have to work on this. I have been in and out of therapy all my life due to the conditions I mentioned earlier but things like my mum were spoken about often but it was things like how I feel about myself, growing self confidence and self love to try and stop things like self harm that were the focus of therapy back then. I went back to my GP recently after being discharged by the MH team a yr ago and told them I was struggling with grief, my dissociation has been a nightmare and all that jazz but the MH team refused my referral and said any number of grief counselling groups and helplines are enough yet I when I went to my local hospice grief counseling, they said they couldn't help due to trauma, flashbacks and dissociation. They said they needed to be dealt with by a specialist and my GP agreed so I'm waiting to see if the MH team will take me on after my GP and a psychologist wrote back saying I need risk assessments and psychological intervention. If not, I'll try and save some pennies and go private.

Someone mentioned they think my mum fakes her panics to get control and sympathy. I 100% agree! As soon as someone calls her out on her behaviour, she will start with a panic attack and go extreme with her symptoms. You know what she's like with shopping, spending money is her number one goal in life. There's been so many times we've had to leave a day out because of her panic attack and then on the drive home say my husband will say to me "we'll need to go and get milk on the way home", her ears will prick up and if shopping is mentioned, her panic suddenly disappears! I suffer from panic attacks too, not so much lately due to dissociation but I was housebound about ten years ago from agoraphobia and it was hell. The only time mum will phone me (I have to phone her every day and I only do this to give my sis a break) is if she has a panic attack. All she ever says is "there must be a miracle cure drug for me to stop this!" She can't accept she is the cause and cure of her panic attacks and she has to work to stop them by learning what they are, changing her approach etc. She expects to click her fingers and be cured even though no one else has been cured that way before.
When I was struggling though with MH both as a child and now are 30. I got told "that's life" but if she so much breaks a nail, the entire world ends

She honestly sounds just like my mother. If we didn't dance to her tune even if a plan was agreed prior she would throw a tantrum and ruin the day/event.
The only way I could cope was going low/ then no contact. I decided my own mother shouldn't be making my life worse. If I wouldn't tolerate that behaviour from a stranger/friend so why would I give family a free pass to bully me?
It sounds like your situation is difficult as she lives with sister. Honestly I would be making a plan together to get her put her back in sheltered accommodation or care home. She reaps what she sows. I know that's harsh but she doesn't seem capable of caring for your feelings so why should you care about hers?

She is manipulating you. She definitely fakes her panic to control you - I am glad you see that.

Don’t let ruin yours, your husband and your sisters life. You only get one life. Is this how you want to spend it?

Put her in a home. Visit once a week. Stick firmly to the boundary (no extra visits because of a “panic attack” etc). Once she realises you’re both serious she will stop. If her behaviour gets worse, you can cut her out of your life, you know. You do not deserve a miserable life just because your mum has a personality disorder.

That's exactly right, I wouldn't put up with this behaviour from friends or a partner so why should I put up with it from her? Looking back, it was my dad who raised me and my sister. Mum never went to any parents evenings, school shows, days out (very rarely she would go) and claimed it was due to panics/agoraphobia and maybe then it was genuine but then she saw the sympathy and power she could get and it became her new tactic.

Growing up, I remember the arguments they used to have. They used to fight almost daily. My dad had his moody moments but I see why now. He was also extremely ill as well for a lot of my life but he was always there for us. I can't praise him enough. He was my hero, my bestest friend and tbh, my saviour. I feel now that I've lost him, I've lost my only parent.

Sometimes I even question if I love my mum or if it's all just obligation. I feel like when I talk to her, I'm just a carer. I can't talk to her about things you can talk to a mum about like grief, boys, health trouble etc. All she can talk about is shallow stuff and money. I think she feels money is the only way to show affection. When she talks about me and my dad's relationship, the only thing she ever says is I was a spoilt brat and I wanted for nothing. It's true, we had a bit of money and I was spoilt but whenever I think about to talk about my dad, the money doesn't even come into. I remember all the tiny little things that seem to go over her head. My dad knew my interests and shared a lot of them, we had a similar upbringing, dealt with the things the same way, double of each other looks wise etc. I feel like he loved me for me not just because we were related whereas with mum, I don't feel she loves me for me at all. She couldn't tell you what I studied at uni, what my fave film is, what I'm scared of etc but my dad could tell you all that and more.

She's never accepted any choice I've made in life especially the choice about not having kids. Me and my husband decided early on it wasn't for us and 12 years later we still agree with our choice. Everyone else was fine with it but mum stopped talking to me for a week when I told her and when she did talk to me again, she literally bawled, howled and begged. I don't just mean she cried because most women want to be a gran, I could understand that, I mean hysterical pleading and guilt tripping. She done this a few times over the years but I think she's realised now I won't budge. I feel sick to my stomach when I remember her in this situation.

Honestly just stick her in a home and be done with it. Just because she gives birth to you, you don’t owe her your life and happiness

I'm so sorry @RumHam Everyone deserves good parents but not everyone gets them. It's particularly painful when a mother is cruel to a daughter because the mother-daughter relationship is so celebrated around the world.
My mother didn't know anything about me either. My friends' mums knew more about my personal life than she did.
I began understanding my situation more and felt less guilt as I got older. I found the "daughters of narcissistic mothers" website helpful. There's also the "stately homes" thread on Mumsnet of people dealing with emotionally absent parents.
I wish you the best for the future <3

I would actually wonder whether she has sone serious mental health issues there. I've a friend who is bipolar, split personality disorder and others and she behaves like this, particularly blowing up then swearing blind she didn't, I honestly believe she doesn't remember doing it, which makes her a victim and makes everything even worse.

She could probably do with an assessment some therapy, but would she want that? You'll be waiting a long time even if she does.

I agree you should establish boundaries and stick to them, but possibly also assume she is unwell until you know otherwise which might help you to let bad behaviour go. I realise this is excusing her, but I honestly can't think of anything else if you are to maintain contact.

I agree with @Risslan bipolar, borderline, NPD. She may have a lovely combination of bipolar and Npd. She's definitely displaying narcisstic behaviours but that sort of stuff comes from a mentally unwell place. Which is heartbreaking. But if she wont get help she's not really someone you can be around without taking on her drama.

I feel so sorry for you and your shocking childhood at her hands.

But I actually feel equal sortow for your husband having married into such a family.

12 years of this and you are now having marital strife?

If he was my family member I would be strongly recommending that he cut his losses if you don't step back.

He doesn't deserve to have such drama.
She could live another decade.

Your health issues are connected and exacerbated by your contact.

Put her into a home and step away.

She deserves no more.

She has destroyed enough of your life.

Death must have been a blessing to your father after a life of such stress.

This doesn't have to be your life.

You do have a choice here.

Be brave.

Thanks again everyone for your comment

I do feel bad for my husband. Other than this subject, we don't have any other problems and rarely argue about anything other than this subject. He sees it from a different POV from me and my sister and the view he sees is right. He understands all the baggage and conditioning we've went through since childhood but reminds us we have to break free and set boundaries at the very least. He's good at this and doesn't let her guilt trip or manipulation get to him but sometimes she does cross the line with what she says to him. Most of the time he laughs it off but other times you can see him biting his tongue.

Our whole mood around each other changes before we meet her and after it. It's like a dark cloud of exhaustion. Some days, we have great days out with her and it almost feels normal and then other times (most of the time) when she doesn't get her own way, the shit starts and it's draining. The days we don't meet her, we are absolutely fine and there's no tension at all.

Who I feel most sorry for though is my sister. She's her legal carer now and was a carer for dad too before he died. It's not been easy for her and I try to help as best as I can but I often feel like unless I can take mum off her hands 100% then nothing I do is good enough.

Mum won't entertain the notion of a care home, befriending services or even the MH nurse for grief and anxiety support at our doc surgery. She would rather just sit and moan about everything. She's had everything handed to her in life. Never had to work both in a job and around the house, very few people have ever said no to her or stood up to her and she thinks she's the centre of the universe.

Can only tell you what I did. I got rid, total NC and it's absolutely bliss.

Your mother doesn't have the choices she thinks she does. You and your sister are still in FOG. Sort out a care home, settle her in and let her get on with it.

She doesn't get to choose.

Your sister can make the decision that she has to leave her home.

It can be done.

I realise that it sounds harsh but you have both sacrificed enough.

Don't add your marriage to that pile.

For your sisters sake you need to step up and say she has no choice, she moves out, get her a social worker and say they need to find her somewhere appropriate to live.

Do not let your sister spend the rest of her life being emotional abused.

Me and sis really need a good sit down talk about all of this. We text almost 24/7 but mum plays the panic attack card and that can't be left alone whenever me and sis try and arrange a day out together, even just a meet up in town for a couple of hours or she will ask why can't she go? I've not had any quality time with my sister since dad died which is hard because we've been each others rock with this grief, we only have each other. My sis doesn't really do the internet so I'll show her this thread and all the advice and comments. Sometimes you need to hear it from someone else's POV to realise just how bad a situation is and that it's not actually normal. It only feels normal to us because it's all we've ever known

It's always amazing how the person who has the least power in actual sense holds the most power over people. My mum was an arse to me recently and stopped speaking to me and my daughter (12) said words to the effect that wasn't that daft of grandma as se would need me before I would need her bearing in mind she is 80 and treats me like a surrogate spouse. It's conditioning and FOG obviously, mainly the feeling of guilt and that you are responsible for her happiness- if you can find some way to stop that ruling you it will become easier to stop pandering, and easier to believe that you aren't responsible for her happiness, she is.

It’s incredible, this woman has no power over you other than what you give her.
I was able to go NC with my Father when I realised he had literally nothing that I wanted

Your sister should have never allowed her to move in, she now has complete power over both of your mental well-being
She needs to be ejected PDQ

Mum won't entertain the notion of a care home
Of course you won't she's having way too much fun destroying her daughters who are completely powerless against her, she isn't going to stop unless very firm measures are taken to prevent her behaviour.

Hi op just to say, as you can see from the posts that this is one of the best kept secrets, many people have a parent that is immature/cruel. Society brushes this under the carpet and still largely refuses to accept that a lot of parents just don't care about any pain they have, and continue to cause their children. In reality you can't help your mum in any meaningful way, you could spend the next 10/20 years tolerating abuse and it would make no difference to your mum. But, it will cause you harm and already is.

There is no easy way out of this, either way is difficult, no one wins when a parent has a disordered personality. It will help to read about parents with personality disorders regardless of how the future pans out. Also therapy, definitely. You will have core wounds from being around a mother so out of touch with you but you can find and lean on your inner parent and a therapist skilled in childhood trauma will help you access that.

I'm so sorry that you have this awful person in your life. Some people (particularly mothers I think) delight in making the Dementors in Harry Potter look like Paddington Bear in comparison.

No advice I'm afraid, other than to echo others in saying that she needs to be out of your sister's house and in a sheltered place and that you need to cut as much contact as possible, if not all. She is the architect of her own situation; plenty of people have had dysfunctional upbringings or are grieving and don't behave to others in this way - it is only going to get worse as she ages and it is already very grim. It's heartbreaking to read how upsetting it is for you and it will probably destroy your poor sister completely.

I recommend having a look at the Stately Homes threads on here - here's a link to the latest one: www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/4660201-november-2022-well-we-took-you-to-stately-homes. It's for people dealing with similar issues and is full of wise people, sympathy and is genuinely supportive and helpful.

I wish you all the best. This is not your fault, you are not a bad person, and you can break the cycle, as impossible as it may seem at present.

I'm sorry about your dad. Today is the anniversary of my dad's death; he was often the voice of reason and compassion in my own childhood.

xx