Finances with husband - does this seem right:fair?

[AnonyHB]

Originally posted on money thread but realised probably better here:

Hi all,

Not sure who to ask about this and don’t feel comfortable asking friends as don’t want them to know about the situation.

In short, my husband and I are both high earners but he has been a high earner since graduating 17 years ago. He was then gifted half the family business about ten years ago so as well as being high earner (£120k plus) he also puts car, mobile phone etc through business and has access to extra money if he ever needs or wants to take out more. He works 3 days per week.

I earn about £40k less than him. To do this I work full time and then top up income through self employed work which fluctuates.

He bought our house 10 years ago. At that point we had been together approx 2 years but weren’t married. I was a student and not earning. House has always been in his name since. He paid mortgage and council tax, I paid everything else (bills, food, dogs, cleaner etc). We got married 5 years ago and now have a child. Nursery bill split equally between us at the moment.

He has paid for work to be done to house although I’ve also contributed (approx £50k I’ve given) despite never been named on house.

He is in a fortunate position that he has paid off the mortgage now, having decided he didn’t like the way the markets were going with interest rates. Meanwhile, my bills have accumulated and increased year on year. At this point he has no outgoings for household other than council tax and half nursery fees. I pay everything else, plus half nursery fees, to the tune of approximately £1800 per month. I also have obvious additional costs like my car, phone etc.

I can’t figure out if this is OK - that for the rest of our lives I continue to pay for everything on my own because he has paid the mortgage off. I feel it’s not right but can’t quite articulate the problem because in theory he could have chosen not to pay off mortgage and would then still have a monthly outgoing which, with council tax, would probably be similar in £ to mine.

Would appreciate opinions. I would love to get independent advice but husband not interested and I’ve told him I feel a bit weird about our financial situation but he ignores me.

You're married and have children, your finances should be pooled. If you don't want them to be fully pooled then you should be contributing to all joint bills in proportion to your incomes, which means he pays 3/5s to your 2/5s. The mortgage is not a bill anymore and the house is a marital asset.

Also I hope he's spending his nonworking days caring for your DC and supporting the household.

No it's not fair. Either all money is pooled OR you pay in proportion to earnings.

Totally agree with PP, all money is both of yours

It’s always so difficult to work out what’s fair when it comes to money, I think. It sounds as though you have quite separate finances, which can be great in so many ways — but personally I think it would be fairer if you agreed to split all ‘joint’ outgoings, not just nursery fees — so cleaner, food etc.

Thing is I guess I just think I what’s the point pushing it / if I left him I’d have these costs to bear on my own anyway so wouldn’t be better off financially :/

The house might not be in your name however it is a marital asset.. so its not his.

Of course he should be contributing to the bills.

Have you not even raised this ?

Sinply now the mortgage is paid off how are we going to split the bills is the most basic question

It's not at all fair. I'm willing to bet he thinks it's 'his' house too.

You need to as a family see the mortgage as one bill gone and split the rest as a proportion of income.

I would just say: these are the bills, this is your share now the mortgage is paid. And we need to redo our wills, now we have a child, to reflect the current circumstances.
And if he tries to shut you up/ignore you, at least you know where you’re standing. The thing is, if you tolerate any level of disrespect, things will look bleak anyway, but at least you’d have your dignity.

if you are married and have a child do you not find it strange that you can’t have this conversation with your husband about finances?

If you can't have a face to face conversation about what is reasonable and both agreeing then your marriage is dead.

Life is perfectly affordable for you as a single parent, to suggest it isn't is insulting to the 99.5% of single parents out there who make it work.

The "if I try to have a conversation about (could be any reasonable issue), he ignores me." is enough OP. You have a problem I'm afraid.

Ok so if I understand correctly, you paid:
half nursery fees
all bills (food, utilities, etc)
$50K toward house.

He pays:
half nursery fees
mortgage and
council tax.
However he has been able to pay off the house so the mortgage is now zero.
And: The house is solely in his name.

So here is what I think: the assets of the marriage are being unequally divided between you. His contribution included the mortgage, but the mortgage on a house goes partially to the capital, and houses also usually increase in value over time. Therefore, the apparent value of his contribution is much greater than the ACTUAL value of his contribution thus:
let's pretend he paid a total of 100K toward the house. Of which, let's say, 30K was interest, and 70K was principal. And let's also say the house has risen in value by, I don't know, let's say 50K. For simplicity, for right now, we'll pretend you didn't contribute anything towards the renovations and we won't consider the effect of the council tax. He now owns a house worth 150K, for an outlay of 30K interest. His true contribution was 30K, i.e. the sunk cost that can't be recouped by selling the house. Actually, if you think of his contribution in terms of the current value of the house, he "lost" 30K but gained 50K, so he actually gained 20K and lost 0. Because a house is an asset.

By contrast, food and utilities are not an asset. Once you eat the food and use the electricity, it's gone. You can't sell it for a profit later. Likewise, children's clothing is not really an asset, as children's clothes generally don't appreciate the way a house does. So sum total: His contribution went towards a real asset in his name - something that would hold and increase value for him over time. Your contribution mainly went towards things that would be used up and disappear. (FYI I would consider the council tax in the same category as food/utilities so you can modify the calculation to account for that.)

The fair* way to divide these expenses would be for the house to be in both of your names and for each of you to have paid half the mortgage, half the council tax and half the food/utilities etc. In the arrangement you have, you are being taken advantage of, because you are throwing money into the (metaphorical) trash and he is throwing money into real property (i.e. an asset viable over the long term).

If you consider now the 50K you put towards the renovations that just makes it more stark: now you are putting your money into expenses with nothing to show for it, AND into HIS real property. What money is he putting into real property in YOUR name, that can appreciate for YOU? He's not! He's putting his money towards an asset that is only in his name.

I bet if you put it to him in these terms, he would tell you that if you weren't married to him** you would have to pay rent somewhere. But, again, if you were on the deed of the property, it wouldn't be down the drain in the same way as rent is for a renter, you would be accumulating principal in your real estate asset, and the value of your asset would be increasing over time.

This man is using you.

*"fair" if you go by the idea that marriage is a 50:50 transaction in which the woman's contribution of giving her whole body to create the couple's child is worth zero. Men have no problem with a woman putting her body and health at risk to have his baby, but then want to calculate nickels and dimes and exact their pound of flesh when it comes to how to split the bills. Gross.

** See "fair", above.

The rights to your house depends on where you're living in the UK. I'm sure it's different in Scotland and would be classed as his because it was bought before you were married.

However, he should have still been paying half of all bills even if he was paying the full mortgage.

If you can seek legal advice on the house. If you can't afford a lawyer then speak to citizen's advise who will give you free advise.

So really he should be paying

Half of
Council tax
Child care fees
Electricity/gas
Water
Broadband
House insurance
Food
Cleaner or cleaning
Holidays, days out
Birthdays, xmas,
Half of child related costs

You pay for
Your mobile
Your car & all costs related
Hobbies
Pension

Are savings joint or single ?

Have I missed anything ?

You need to make a list & get him to pay more
You need to pay into a private pension or have more savings

There is a question of fairness but also practicality.

Main question for me would be - are you unhappy in this relationship? Do you resent him for working only 3days/week? Do you feel that he isn’t fully committed to you by not combining finances fully and sharing his good fortune?

I have friends who are married to high earners where their financials aren’t combined. It’s not fair, of course. And the men control the finances to a large extent. But because they (individually and as families) enjoy a really nice lifestyle - the women chose not to fight this. And it’s worked for years by now.

So, setting aside the question of fairness -
I’d think practically about your life and what you want from it. If you are happy with your H otherwise, and he is a good father, and you like your lifestyle - then it might not be worth fighting it.
I think when one person brings in significantly more assets into the relationship - they do tend to try to protect it . It’s understandable to a degree. All depends on how they do it.

"I’ve told him I feel a bit weird about our financial situation but he ignores me."
This is a big red flag to me. Why won't he talk about it?

It also depends on how much the property I suppose. Work out where the imbalance will be over time with your current contributions. Do you love him, does he love you and show it? If you have thought of moving out, but the only reason you don't is you won't be financially better off, this speaks volumes. Does it mean you are only staying out of convenience...

As you're married the house will be considered a joint asset regardless of who paid what into it. That's what I understand from the many articles I've read.

That’s fine if they split up. Bu5 in the marriage he is rolling in money and she is racking up debt.
that isn’t how a marriage should work.
he is mean, selfish and entitled, and doesn’t give a fuck about his wife and child really,

And he’s working 3 days per week, whilst she’s doing 2 jobs…I’d be interested if he’s using his 2 free days for childcare ?

As you are married, the house is 'half yours' in the sense that it is a marital asset, and I would expect your name to go on it. In the event of divorce, yes, it's fair that he gets back what he put into the house before you started living together/married. But everything else is equally yours. As it's your contribution to shared living expenses that has allowed him to easily pay off the mortgage and make improvements.

You are not in the very fortunate position as a family to not have a mortgage to pay. All household expenses that remain need to be split between you and proportionate to your income. If he earns slightly more, he pays slightly more. He also does the bulk of housework and ferrying around your dc as he works PT.

Personally, I'm not in the 'family money' camp. Dh and I have always had our own money and used that for our own personal expenses. But we have a joint account that we contribute to proportionate to our incomes from which all joint expenses get paid (childcare, school uniform, food shop, bills, fuel for family car, family meals/days out).

You are NOW in the very fortunate position...

No it's not fair. Either split everything or pool your money. The fact he is ignoring your concerns is a red flag.

No, not fair. If he's paid off the mortgage he should contribute more to the other bills. Having said that I think it is ridiculous that you both earn well and are in this position. It's so disjointed, that it isn't benefitting you as a family. You should be investing loads and still have a great lifestyle. I think you need to sit down together and reset your family finances.

Should he be penalized because he was forward thinking and in a position to pay off his debt. You are not accruing new expenses; you are just paying your normal and expected expenses.

He was wise enough to prepare himself for a career in a profession that pays well and fortunate enough to be born into a family with resources that they were willing to share with him. There is nothing that you could have done to change your family's financial position, but you could possibly have prepared yourself for a higher paying career.

I don't think that you have much to complain about. He is not expecting you to do or cover anything outside of the expensive that most adults cover on a regular basis

The problem with this scenario is that you you told him you are not happy about your financial situation and he ignores you. That's not the behaviour of a loving husband.

Why is he ignoring you? Sounds like he doesn't care that you are unhappy. Or he cares more about his money than he cares about you.