November 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

This is the latest thread, please feel free to write as much or as little as you please.

Yes I have reached that it was taking up too much time in my head , they have had my whole life to be nice to me and behave as though they care it’s not going to happen now

@JustCheck actually starting to feel this way. Kind of just trying to view my 'mother' a person in my life rather than the role of mother. As she isn't capable of being one.
I'm going to send some flowers at Mother's Day and prob let her know in a few weeks that I am pregnant again, but we're at a total impasse. I am too afraid to tell her my thoughts on my childhood (maybe not even afraid, literally cannot be bothered and don't want the ag), and she's completely oblivious to realisations I have been having, so as far she's concerned, nothing has changed.
I've never been able to talk to her about anything, and always thought that was my fault but it's not.

Bloody @Shortbread49 thats it! They’ve had all that time to behave!!!!

Yes!
With my siblings.
I'm still helping mum but am oddly (or perhaps not so oddly) detached from it all.
I do my best. That's all I can do.

Look after yourself monkey x

@JustCheck Even though my recent horrendously long posts may point to otherwise, I can answer 'yes, to some of it' to your question.

I tied myself in knots for years and let my mother get away with dreadful emotional blackmail because I felt so sorry for her. It was in about 2011, when I was 42 and my MIL had died of cancer, that I started to realise just how shit both my parents were when I was a child.

I liked my late MIL, her and ex FIL were excellent parents. Seeing how much they had (to my eyes) 'sacrificed' for ex husband opened my eyes. It took years of psychological therapy for me to realise that they hadn't 'sacrificed' anything - what they did was the bare minimum any parent should do for their child: they gave him a settled home life, consistent education and made him feel wanted and loved...everything my parents didn't do for me.

It's been about 26 years since I went LC with my mother. She lives in Oz, I'm in the UK (I'm French/Australian). I've not been back to Oz in 13 years...I have no plans to do so in the near future. I call her on a average every 2 months (she never calls me). This level of contact is all I can cope with, I don't want to have to entertain too much of her utter bollocks anymore. I'm tired of hearing how terrible my father was, how badly he treated her etc...she was a willing participant in all of it. To be honest, I'm sick of her insulting my intelligence by pretending it was otherwise. She has no inner insight, all she wants is for everyone to feel sorry for her.

I really cannot be arsed with it.

I think people need support, someone to listen to them and to be kind. I was so shocked when someone else’s parents took an interest in me and said something nice (was mid teens) it want something that happened in my house (still hasn’t and I am in my 50s) it’s not difficult to acknowledge your own child and be nice to them I can do it

I guess we all have that thing about there's only so much shit one can take. Maybe we have different levels - some can take more than others. But it gets to a breaking point eventually. That I don't care any more moment.

As @Chevyimpala67 says, just leave me alone. Which seems eminently reasonable. Except toxic people don't want to leave you alone. They're like sodding parasites.

Emotional detachment is key to the recovery process.

Fortunately, my siblings only contact me when they want something/need money.
I am not going to my sisters (ill fated imo) 2nd wedding.
I see no reason why I ever need to be in the same room with them again tbh.
Its rather Marvellous 😊

@sianiboo - as products of our toxic parents, we are constantly made to feel grateful for the tiny breadcrumbs of care/attention/affection because we didn't receive any.

My parents wholeheartedly believe they are 'good' parents as they fed, clothed and gave me a roof over my head which was in a 'naice' area and didn't physically abuse me. But they did emotionally abuse me by creating an environment devoid of love or attention. I was always made to feel like a nuisance and inconvenience or as an accessory when it suited them. I was always my mother's sounding board but she was never interested in any aspect of my life.

@Shortbread49 - I can relate to being shocked when friends' parents took time to have a chat with me, get to know me and saying nice and kind things and actually remember what I had told them previously.

I found that as I became an independent adult, my parents then demanded me to do this, that and the other as payback for simply bringing me up. To them love was transactional - only no matter what I did, I realised I would always be in debt.

@JustCheck -I found being NC a great release from their drama and emotional tax. I wouldn't say I exactly don't care but more that I feel sad and disappointed about it - but I recognise that I am mourning a relationship I simply didn't have rather than them as people.

I’m nearly 50, happily married and a mum to teenagers and I’ve recently had the revelation that my mother is a narcissist. I’ve realised and that I need to reduce contact with her and install clear boundaries for my own mental health. However, it’s complicated - there are some family issues (death of a close family member, another family member with a chronic eating disorder) as well as which she moved to live much closer to me than any of my siblings. I think one of my siblings is the ‘golden’ one and she has different expectations of me as her only daughter, as well as the fact that my father (also narcissistic) enables her.

Here are some red flag examples (of many) that stand out:

Once, I broke my arm at 8.45am when I was alone at home when my kids were 6 and 8. I called her asking her to come so I could go to A&E but she wouldn’t because she had a doctor’s appointment herself that afternoon and didn’t want to jeopardise missing it. I had to leave them with a neighbour and ask MIL to collect them.

She rarely contacts me and when I do give in and call her (usually from guilt) the whole conversation is usually about her. Sometimes as an afterthought she asks “is everything okay with all of you?” right at the end of the call. I always say that it is as I don’t want to give away too much.

She is explicit about really wanting to see me by myself (rather than with my husband or kids) and when I do she spends the whole time telling me what everyone else in the family and even her own friends are doing wrong, who’s a disappointment and gives big the impression that she always knows the right thing to do. She often tells me what I should do in different situations and she can’t see alternatives to her view. She likes to tell me that something is “the done thing”.

She wants to be the centre of everyone’s world and sets things up, manipulating others to get what she wants. Currently she’s working ‘behind the scenes’ on organising a Mother’s Day event for herself and has made it clear to my SIL that she wants a big gathering but doesn’t want to have to arrange it herself. I’m not getting involved and although I’ll send her flowers on the day, I’m spending the day on a trip with my own lovely family (it’s my Mother’s Day too, right?) and steering well clear.

A few years ago I told her that I thought she was depressed and needed some support. Never again. Her level of upset and anger was unreal.

I could go on as there are hundreds of situations like this and although it’s as clear as day to me now that she’s narcissistic, I can’t believe I didn’t notice before. She often says “I’ve done my bit” by which she means that it’s her turn for me/us to do things for her. I can’t continue with the expectation that I should ‘give give give’ without getting anything positive or supportive back in return. I don’t feel that I owe her.

Can anyone relate? Do you have any top tips about managing this in the context of the wider family? I don’t want to involve my siblings or their partners but also refuse to be pulled into attempts by my mother to manipulate me and make it all about her. I’ve got a great therapist to work with me on this but I’m dreading the fallout and family dynamics ahead.

@Legomum78 it seems that you have the measure of her and the negative impact this has on you. There will be many others in the family who will have questioned or been left hurt by her behaviour but not spoken out - they may never do so.

I would say that you have found YOUR stance and that you need to decide on your course of action that protects and distances you and your family and I would enact it calmly and consistently with new firm boundaries that you put in place to fade / nudge out of the family dynamics unnoticed over time.

I say this because you have written about the narcissistic rage and volatility of your DM and it’s not worth triggering that for you.

I would also not discuss your determination of strategy with any other family members. They may feel the same but more likely are enmeshed in the wide Narc family dynamic - any change or challenge to which feels like an emotional threat to then even subconsciously because the Narc keeps everyone on eggshells with their threat of rage, game playing, manipulation, smearing and ostracising.

You don’t need anyone else in the family to validate your experience so don’t seek it there - you will be disappointed.

You don’t need to JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) to anyone else in the family what you are doing. They don’t need to know - get support outside the system.

IME you may loose connection initially with some members of the family - or at least the dynamic will change - but this is likely to be emotionally healthier as enmeshed family systems are too close, interdependent and controlled by fear, obligation and guilt (FOG) set up by the Narc.

Have you looked at each of the regular interactions you have with the individuals and them as a group and decided how you will reduce information and contact / change boundaries incrementally for each?

Maybe decide over a year to do this around day to day stuff and events (Mother’s Day, birthdays, holidays, Xmas etc). Scorched earth approach will only add drama and backfire on you IMHO.

Feel confident that you know what’s wrong and that you are getting out of it.

The aim is emotional detachment with the goal of feeling indifferent - not angry and bitter (although you will need to go through this stage with your therapist) - the way there IME is slow fade / grey rock technique and understanding that others are invested and enmeshed and it’s futile to try to actively try to gain allies - better to try to re establish other family relationships on a new one to one footing where she / family dynamics is not mentioned. But sometimes some relationships are collateral damage in the short term.

Thanks for your comments @Glindara, really insightful. I should have made clear that I have good relationships with my siblings and their partners which is why I don't want to bring them into this. That said, I appropriate your comment about not talking to anyone else (apart from HB) and think I will just fade out, starting with this Mother's Day...

Very wise words and I agree. I have stopped trying to talk to siblings about my mother. It’s pointless. Everyone else in the family has their own reasons for wanting to be aligned with my mother which leaves me in the cold. Indifference is the way forward. I am currently NC but if I restablish contact instead of reacting I will just ignore or deflect. It’s really hard though. Really hard. I still king for the mother I never had and it hurts.

You may have a good relationship with your siblings now because you inadvertently play a role that makes their life comfortable that they are not conscious of.

If you are the scapegoat absorbing all the family flack and then fade away - one of them might get it or become rattled as the dynamics of the enmeshed family shift and become destabilised…….they will want you back in your subordinate place to relieve them of any new discomfort.

Be ready for the flying monkeys (they may not even be aware that they are doing it) - toxic families are a system and you currently play a role that benefits others.

I agree about it being pointless to change your siblings’ views, it just brings more conflict. Step away as much as you can.

Sometimes, there is awareness, but siblings can be too conflicted or scared to voice it, never mind do something about it.

My partner’s brother is like this. He knows. His life has been ruined, but especially over the last 20 years when my Haggish mother in law has treated him like a slave. The way she speaks to him is vile. He is too scared to stand up to her or go low contact.

We’ve backed away, I’m NC and my partner is increasingly very LC. It’s total brainwashing.

Families like these are a cult. It’s very hard to break free.

hurrah for everyone breaking free. It takes a lot of emotional hard work.

Legomum78

re your comment
"I’ve realised and that I need to reduce contact with her and install clear boundaries for my own mental health. However, it’s complicated - there are some family issues (death of a close family member, another family member with a chronic eating disorder) as well as which she moved to live much closer to me than any of my siblings. I think one of my siblings is the ‘golden’ one and she has different expectations of me as her only daughter, as well as the fact that my father (also narcissistic) enables her".

Reduce contact - great but remember anyway that it is NOT possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. Installing clear boundaries may be far more problematic however, mainly because she has encouraged you not to have any. You've been given the Special Training to put her first with your own needs and wants dead last. Another problem is that narcissists hate boundaries and so could actively try to disrupt or otherwise ignore any you set. Remember too that its not your fault that they are like this and you did not make them this way.

Would suggest you start to fade away and out from the narcissistic family structure over a period of time; start making yourself far less available to her and your dad. Women like your mother cannot do relationships at all and always but always need a willing enabler to help them, that person here being your dad. You will need to stop all contact with him as well; he has been a bystander to this dysfunction going on within his family unit and has likely thrown you under the bus more than once. In a straight fight also he would choose his wife over you.

With you out of the picture altogether the other family members will now turn against each other.

You leaving this will be noticed and you will be rounded on big time (she will likely send in the flying monkeys who are otherwise well meaning but easily manipulated by her into doing her bidding). You'll likely also hear from your dad and or favoured siblings repeatedly saying that you've upset mother again or something and you're supposed to do something about it. Ignore any and all hoovering attempts to suck you right back in including promises of change/money/gifts etc. Hoovering is a technique so beloved of narcissists in particular.

Deal with all your fear, obligation and guilt through therapy and find a therapist who will work with your approach to this. There are some excellent resources on Youtube re narcissists; have a look at Dr Ramani for starters.

You will also need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

Hi winningeasy

re your post of the 16/02/2023 below (have been on holiday for a few days hence my reply now)

"With Mother's Day looming, I am debating whether to send flowers...
I am NC for about a month, VLC for about 6 months and LC for about 20 years.
There was no one single event that led to NC, more just me putting up some boundaries that she didn't like one jot, alongside lots of realisations of how truly miserable she made my childhood and how she doesn't actually know me or add anything to my current life due to her being completely socially inept.
I don't miss her, there's nothing to miss, but I lament having a mum.
Any pearls of wisdom..."

As you have not been in any contact for the last month I would not send flowers. I would instead give the money you would have spent on those to a charity of your choice or to an organisation that she would never have supported. NC is precisely this; no contact.

It is part of the overall healing process to grieve for the mother you should have had rather than the one you actually got; that is normal.

On a wider level I am noticing that more companies nowadays give their customers the chance to opt out of receiving mothers day/fathers day e mail marketing materials; this is a good development.

@Glindara, thank you for this wise and succinct advice that will be helpful and relevant to so many of us here! 👏

Hi everyone,

I'm feeling very fragile today and need your support.

I have a difficult mother, emotionally abusive and controlling. Her way or the highway all my life. From day 1 of my life I had to work to avoid to upset her or she would shout and put me down. You are expected to do everything exactly as she expects or she'll let you know. I had a roof over my head, clothing and food etc. but emotionally I was neglected. Every time I tried to talk about things I was told something like 'why are you looking for an argument' etc. You get the gist.

My father enabled her and still does. He has no opinion of his own and walks on egg shells.

I moved away long time ago, but visit twice a year. I feel her behaviour gets worse with age. At Christmas it was really bad. She was very volatile and shouted at my dad and my niece whenever something was not what she expected. I found it unbearable and broke down, tried to talk to her (once again), but as usual she shut me down, telling me she is 70 years old and what I want from her etc.

I left back home and contact has gone from whatsapp messages about this and that daily to minimal contract from my side. I just can't bear her at the moment.

Today came the text from her: Dear (my name), I wish we could talk properly about things. If we hurt you then we are sorry. You belong here. You have cut yourself off completely. Please call sometimes so we know you are well.

I am still shaking because I know she's about to majorly gaslight me and take her efforts to the next level. She'll pretend I am totally exaggerating etc. and has no idea what my reasons are. She might even pretend to be willing to talk about things, but it will be very superficial without any accountability her end or insight into her behaviour.

I replied that I have had enough of a lifetime of being shouted at myself or witnessing others being shouted at. That I don't believe things will change. That nothing could ever be talked about, things were swept under the carpet and I will be in contact when I want it.

The FOG is in full swing for me.

I am shaking and every interaction with her upsets me. I know she is no threat to me - I have my own life - but it feels like it. She still has a lot of power over me in that way.

Twatalert

I would now block your mother (and enabler of a father; such women always need a willing enabler to help them) from being able to contact you at all further via any method. You need to close the door completely now as further communication keeps that door open. A response from you is what is wanted. to such disordered of thinking people this is the reward.

Your mother or father (or even niece) will likely send a response in reply to your message; do not read or acknowledge this and immediately put this in your spam folder.

I would also cease all visits to their home as its not worth the bother nor anguish. You would not tolerate this from a friend, do not keep on tolerating this from them. Let go of any and all residual hope that either will change. Such disordered of thinking people do not ever apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Its not your fault they are like this and you did not make them this way. Their own families did that to them.

Thank you Attila. I know all this on an intellectual level. Emotionally it is very hard. With my response I have already given her an opportunity to gaslight me further.

I am having a hard time letting go completely. My niece is only a child (9yo), I love her dearly and she loves me. I communicate with her when she is not at my parents, but I do know the questions will come and they'll potentially use her in this mess.

it is hard. I am at a stage where I am grieving the fact that I never had the parents I deserved or needed and still don't. It really is sinking in. I am trying to soothe myself whenever I get these pangs of loneliness instead of running back to them. I have already accepted the fact I will never spend a night in their home again. It is such a relief.

I am literally scared of my mothers next steps. I realise I need to block her for my own peace of mind. I'll need help with this though.

I could have written this word for word. I've found a therapist who will hold my hand through this process - could you find someone similar (ie detached and professional) to help you? I'm totally with you.

Hi @Legomum78

I'm so glad someone understands. I still sometimes think 'well, maybe I really am exaggerating'. I know I am not, but I still feel like I am in the wrong, like I am imposter.

I suppose I have to go into therapy again. Can you recommend what kind of therapist would be suitable to handle this?

Previously I worked with those using a person centred, integrative approach. This isn't for me as they rely on me figuring everything out myself. I sometimes need someone to talk sense into me and to validate my feelings and experience.

A lot of what I know about dysfunctional family systems is self taught via other channels. I found it a lot more useful than therapy, but right now I have some feelings I need to process and a therapist is probably the best option.