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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Toxic parents? WWYD

97 replies

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 27/08/2022 11:36

Long term user, new account to post an issue that’s been troubling me for a long time. On one hand I think it’s narcissism, control and manipulation; and on the other I’m so confused as to what the hell this is. It is bloody toxic though.

It concerns my parents, primarily my mother, and more recently, my father (although perhaps it’s always been both). I don’t want to drip feed too much or be to revealing, but their behaviour has struck something in me recently that I no longer want to engage as it’s never positive for me, or fosters any love or support ie not conductive to a good outcome. I’ve been more troubled by guilt recently on this as DH and I are emigrating. DH has recently lost his mother and is of the opinion I should see them before I go etc so I can be the morally righteous one, not have regrets should anything happen etc. however…

My parents have been hellish. Most of my life, however we have functioned, or mainly I accepted the control and manipulation. Now I’m a lot older, wiser, I see them and their nonsense and I don’t have time for it.

Some recent examples are hellish messages I’ve received from my mother and volumes of vitriol all centred around how I DARED to elope to get married (lol) and how difficult it is for THEM, and how we have not ACCEPTED PRESENTS from their friends and family. To be clear, we are private people, who don’t want a fuss, didn’t invite anyone and want people to spend their own money on themselves. We are acutely aware times are hard, hence we graciously declined peoples generosity, but this wasn’t enough for my mother. The same mother who persistently sent me ‘mother of the bride’ outfit pictures of ‘what she would have worn, had she been invited’. The same mother who didn’t congratulate me or my new DH on the day of the wedding or thereafter. Not even a card. Parents are furious I didn’t have the wedding of the century, and that they couldn’t shout about it on Facebook etc. Far be it their concern their only daughter should actually marry someone she loves, you know, for the right reasons! That doesn’t matter to them though;

I stupidly tried to engage them in advance of eloping out of respect and they made it all about them. Over FaceTime they cried, raged, but never once said they were happy for us. They then ignored both DH and I and the imminent wedding in all subsequent comms. I’ve not seen them
since April and have no desire to. We married shortly thereafter. Parents notably absent in the nice messages of congratulations we received, cards, genuinely people happy for us - that’s all we asked.

The latest in a long line of abuse has come with the fore mentioned string of vitriol and rage you could expect from the narcissist that is being ignored. I suspect my mother is a narcissist and my father an enabler. When my mother kicks off, I just ignore her. No point in engaging. Well she raged, continuously on message, managing to bring my DH into matters to guilt trip me for daring not to reply to her latest outbursts centred around me not complying with her demands, essentially. She starts: ‘does DH know you are ignoring your mother’ etc.

Then I get the messages from father ‘speak to your mother’. I ask him if he knows why I’m not speaking with her to which he replies no, and neither does she. I then tell him it’s the way she treats me and messages she sends and he says he’s read them and ‘what’s the issue’. The issue is that the messages essentially say ‘what is wrong with you, why are you refusing gifts, this is difficult for us as parents’ (it has nothing to do with them, it’s my life); and ‘answer me, one day you will be sorry’ (of course the latter is the threat about her dying and I should feel guilty for not accepting her shit, like this is my fault. When all that fails, she tries the heartstrings by bringing DH into it so he can know what a terrible person his wife is..

So my father refuses to see that both my mother and his behaviour is completely out of order by extension by closing ranks and thinking that’s acceptable. My difficulty now is we are emigrating. My father is very troubled by this and can’t understand why we won’t see them/don’t come to see them and in fact following up my ignoring of both parents after my father refused to see the issue with a question of why do I not come to see them. Why would I want to? They’ve never once said they’re happy for me/us, only offer negativity and are deeply bitter and troubled people. I just want to live my life and be happy. They bring me down so much.

I feel a bit guilt tripped by the move and DH saying I should see them. I don’t know what to do anymore. I know if I’m stupid enough to reply it just escalates. I said to my father before I cut off his comms that mother should apologise and not repeat that, he doesn’t see the issue. If I re-engage I feel like I’m condoning their nonsense and so, the cycle repeats.

I am utterly done with the frustration of this, the guilt and heartbreak. They aren’t what I want and I’m clearly not what they want. We are no good to one another. DH on the one hand tells me he can’t stand seeing me upset about it all the time and indulging it and to walk away which I have done; and on the other that I should see them before we emigrate. Which fucking is it? I can’t win. DH even floated the idea of one big ‘last family Christmas’ with both families before we leave wtf. I said don’t be ridiculous.

I’m sorry this is terribly long and not very cogent. I just don’t know where to turn. There’s huge amounts more to this as there is with every story, but these are the main and recent highlights. I’d really appreciate any advice.

OP posts:
Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 02/09/2022 10:36

Thanks @billy1966 and @VanillaParkersBowl rather shockingly I’ve woken up to a text from mother to remind me today is her last day in her current job and her new job starts next week. The narcissism literally seeped through my screen; me, me, me!

It’s always all about her! We haven’t spoken for over two months and not a thought about why not/her actions or even how I am. Because SHE HAS A NEW JOB AND IS SO IMPORTANT

Obviously it’s ignored.

OP posts:
billy1966 · 02/09/2022 11:01

One of the greatest cliche's that I learned that I believe to be 100% true is that

"the ONLY person you can actually change in life, is yourself".

When you truly realise how unbelievably difficult it is to change something about yourself, you THEN really get the utter futility in wasting time thinking you can change others.

This was a total game changer for me when I really got that.

It was hugely freeing and helped me make changes that I needed to make.

Try and reflect on this OP.

There is NO changing these people.

The sooner you get that, the sooner you will gain acceptance.

Also there is a certain vanity and ego involved with any of us that thinks we can change another person.

Letting that go is huge.

Madamecastafiore · 02/09/2022 11:29

Just don't engage. Go and live your life, make happy memories and remember that none of this is on you. Your parents are behaving in a way which is unfair and unacceptable, you shouldn't feel any guilt about protecting you and your mental health. Their behaviour should be better than friends, they're family, they should be hard wired to love and protect you and want the best for you. There comes a time in life you have to unload it or it'll completely fill up your brain and make normal life impossible, you're there now and you need to give yourself permission to just dump it all. It's cathartic.

Don't go and see them, you'll get no peace from it. Nothing they can say or do will magically change the situation, they'll never be the parents you wish you had. Write them a letter and post it on the way to the airport then shrug it off like a big heavy coat, you'll feel lighter and happier and free.

None of this is your fault. Explain to your husband that it's all too much and he needs to back you 100% for your sanity.

Good luck. X

GreenManalishi · 02/09/2022 11:47

Your update gves more information and it's clear what you need to do, and youbr totally justified. No wonder you don't want to see them... pack your bags and don't look back, they do not deserve you.

Penny242 · 02/09/2022 12:22

I agree with the pp. Avoid direct contact and write them a letter. It’s a Hobson’s Choice situation: no contact makes you feel miserable; having contact leads to drama and a lot of upset.

Some parents don’t recognise that their children are completely separate people with their own thoughts and feelings. Your mum wants a relationship based on what she wants you to be. Your dad is loyal to your mum. And it sounds like there’s not much self reflection going on in the household.

Your mum will be milking this upset re your wedding and relocation for a long time which makes it difficult to have a conversation so only you can decide how much contact you have with her. Do prepare yourself for the ill health and other dramatic messages you may receive when you’ve moved.

This is a useful read: www.amazon.co.uk/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703

VanillaParkersBowl · 02/09/2022 12:51

All I can say to your latest post, Gonewith, is FFS and roll my eyes. It only ever will be 'me, me, me' with these people - unless it's you they're screaming at, but that too will be about them, them, them.

I'm not convinced writing a letter is a good idea. Whatever you say will be twisted and used against you, to whoever will listen. And it shows them that they are in your mind. Don't give them the satisfaction, they will see it as the last word (even though you wrote it!).

They are wired differently to the rest of us, there is no point in ever expecting or hoping for the sort of reaction you'd get from a 'normal' person because it just won't happen.

billy1966 · 02/09/2022 14:49

Any letter would have to be a full list of all the awful things they have done, including the police being involved.

Anything else could be used as a poor me.

So write a letter, spelling it all out, and burn it would be best, and then let them go.

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 03/09/2022 08:00

@billy1966 yes, that’s so true isn’t it. I accept they’ll never change or be what I want and the more time I waste ruminating on it, the longer back I can remember with the awful behaviour which in my head helps me remember why I need distance.

@Madamecastafiore So true what you wrote there. I can’t bring myself to see them, so I won’t. I do want to write everything down so that I have a recollection and memory of it, and also so that it’s out of my head. I can’t see any benefit in posting it. They’ll only spin it into how nasty I am etc in taking the time to write it.. the irony not lost on me there!

@GreenManalishi sadly so. I didn’t set out for this to be the case but as some point as humans we must draw the boundary line and stick to it - irrespective of who we cut at that point. I need to remember this going forward.

@Penny242 thank you so much for drawing my attention to Hobson’s choice. It eloquently describes my ‘choice’ or lack thereof. I will repeat that to myself and maybe others, in time, when asked. Very true about mother wanting me to be what she wants. The thing I struggle with is that I don’t see that I’ve made any ‘disappointing’ life choices and had I been my daughter I’d be rather pleased (I don’t mean that to be at all arrogant, I’m just pointing out that I don’t see her issue). So true about the dramatic messages too… she’s already tried that with their puppy going to the vet. Sniffed that out miles away and like every other message.. ignored.

@VanillaParkersBowl FFS indeed! I don’t intend on writing a letter, exactly for the reasons you outline. I will write it down, one day, for myself and my eyes only. Sometimes my brain likes to rose tint things and when I read it back I remember why my feelings are so valid.

I really appreciate every post on this thread, it’s really given me strength to keep coming back to each day. Thank you and please keep posting!

OP posts:
billy1966 · 03/09/2022 10:12

I absolutely think you are getting to a better place.

The huge value in MN in this situation is the variety of views that push you to push yourself to find out EXACTLY what you do feel and want.

Knowing that is huge.

Teasing out the minutiae of your thoughts, some of which may not be fully formed is hugely helpful.

Be positive, you are on the right road, you will get there, this self knowledge is huge, and it will get much easier when you soon put big physical difference between you.

Knowing that you will be making a new life abroad, without meeting mutual friends, family, any chance of having questions, will give you great peace.

It's all ahead of you.

billy1966 · 03/09/2022 10:13

Physical distance!

VanillaParkersBowl · 03/09/2022 11:10

Very true about mother wanting me to be what she wants. The thing I struggle with is that I don’t see that I’ve made any ‘disappointing’ life choices .... I don’t see her issue

You could do everything to. the. letter. that she wants (not asks) of you but it will never be right. You say black, she'll say white ... or a particular shade of grey, just to remind you she can throw a curveball better than any baseball player.

As I said before, they are not wired the same as the rest of us which makes them so difficult to understand. The only thing you really need to remember is that you will always be wrong.

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 05/09/2022 16:41

@billy1966 thank you again for your post and it is so true about the teasing out the feelings, however uncomfortable. I still feel strange about it as a whole, but there is a lot less chaos. My life isn’t chaotic or dramatic and these people (my parents) thrive on the drama that’s self created (and inflicted!)

@VanillaParkersBowl yes, she is certainly of a different making. What do you think causes this, narcissism?

OP posts:
VanillaParkersBowl · 06/09/2022 07:59

What do you think causes this, narcissism?

I would say so, it's certainly similar to my experience of a narcissistic ex and his mother. Some people are very quick to dismiss narcissism as a thing but that doesn't help when you are going through their abuse. Or the aftermath. It is very real, sadly.

Dr Ramani on Youtube has lots of videos, see if there are any that look like they might be helpful to you. I found them very helpful when I was trying to understand why they had done what they had done. There will be those who say 'just forget it and move on' - that's very difficult to do with narcissistic abuse. It is designed in such a way to make it so. It's like they all follow the same handbook. Funny that, when each and every one of them is so unique and special 🤔

J0y · 06/09/2022 08:44

You have tried so hard. I really relate. My family of origin used to function when I allowed myself to be manipulated. Something changed in me and I just won't be shamed and manipulated.

Like your parents, the message I get back from them through the silent treatment is "what is wrong with YOU".

IN YR shoes, id emigrate and try not to feel guilt. They don't see you as a person. You are the part they wrote.

I am nc with my parents atm but nc was never what I actively chose. What I wanted was that they communicate with me but that seems to be completely beyond them.

The dynamic of their marriage sounds v similar to my parents. Nothing will change until one dies. If my mum dies first my dad will give me the cold shoulder out of loyalty to her!! But if he dies, she will suddenly want to communicate I predict. They are a dysfunctional mess of a marriage but they shame me for being single.

Enjoy your fresh start.

J0y · 06/09/2022 09:08

Ps @Gonewiththewindbeforelong just to reiterate @billy1966 said, it may seem like everybody believes your parents' version of events but example here my relative told me he was divorcing because his wife, she had bpd he said. I said oh that's awful. But privately thought no way on earth did that calm easy drama-free woman have bpd.

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 17/09/2022 14:17

Sorry I’ve been MIA. I’ve been finding all of this a big mental load and one of my friends has been fairly awful to me recently which has led to a lot of self reflection on myself; why on earth have I allowed these people to take advantage of me for so long, and probably questioning my boundaries which are clearly weak.

@VanillaParkersBowl thanks for your message and mentioning Dr Ramani. I have tried some of her stuff before, but I found the generic nature difficult (although of course it’s going to be and I know IABU for expecting all the answers)..I will try again with fresh eyes and ears and see if it offers anything.

@J0y I’m sorry this happened to you. Your opening sentences there really spoke to me about allowing myself to be manipulated. I think I’ve attachment issues which has transcended into very poor boundaries indeed. So true also that it was never what I chose - I wasn’t given the luxury.

OP posts:
VanillaParkersBowl · 17/09/2022 17:46

Sorry to hear you've been having a hard time, Gonewith. I wonder if your friend has been sensing you've been gaining strength inside and she doesn't like it? I may be well off the mark there but don't be so sure that your boundaries are weak if they are bothering people!

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 17/09/2022 20:40

@VanillaParkersBowl I had never thought about it that way. This is helpful! Couple of examples that I thought to be really off.

  1. we agree to meet at a certain place after my bus gets in. I arrive and she’s not there. No calls, no messages. I know she had an appointment an hour before meet (clothes fitting), so I head in that direction. She doesn’t respect me enough to let me know she’s not showing up. I arrive at the shop of her appointment and she proceeds to make me wait 45 min, without even coming out of the changing room? I feel stupid for agreeing to this
  2. Throughout our day out she constantly mentions an argument DH and I had years ago which she was privy to. Tells me DH text her about it (he’s never had her number or text her); and really makes out she knew best both about my marriage, and how my DH knew to ‘turn to her’. He can’t stand her
  3. I’ve lost a good bit of weight and go for a new winter coat. She’s visibly angry that I have to drop down 4 sizes and when I ask her to take pics so I can see it before I decide to buy (quote pricey), she stands with camera out and I pose and lo and behold when we are in the bar I ask to see the pictures and she claims not to have them?!
  4. Shes having an affair with a married man. She knows my feelings on this. She proceeds to tell everyone we meet about her ‘husband’.. she’s not married to him (someone else is!!!) and she’s never been married, yet tells people she meets she has an ex-husband
god, I really needed to write that down to see how ghastly a person she is with no morals and I think is seething in jealousy. I’m really angry I let her away with her nonsense and I’m feeling a mug for not calling it out.
OP posts:
billy1966 · 17/09/2022 21:40

Block her number and never give her another thought.

She's no friend.

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 17/09/2022 21:55

@billy1966 you’re very right there. I can’t be friends with someone who has such little regard for others

OP posts:
VanillaParkersBowl · 18/09/2022 09:05

Dear God, Gonewith, she's vile. If a person's not happy for you and your achievements there is no room for them in your life. You are well rid.

I’m really angry I let her away with her nonsense and I’m feeling a mug for not calling it out.

It's often not until we are away from them or the situation that we can see clearly what was going on. I've maybe said it before, but people like that keep our heads full so that we don't have time to think, so they can carry on with their behaviour which is all designed to have us feeling shit.

You're free of her now, she might need dealing with along with your parents, if you have counselling, but you are soaring higher above them with every day that passes Flowers

BudgetBlast · 18/09/2022 09:30

@Gonewiththewindbeforelong that sounds so awful. You are definitely dealing with narcissists and it does a complete number on you. I don’t speak to any of my family either and from time to time in therapy even after years I still ask my therapist are you sure it isn’t me? It does a total number on you.

Your way of handling it is perfect. Getting married alone is perfect. I did that too because I didn’t want the person who had abused me as a young child at my wedding and when we had a separate wedding event for the family my mother guilted, shamed and manipulated me until he was allowed to come, so similar BS to your parents. Then moving as far away emotionally and physically as you can.

Your husbands actions in this are perfectly normal and understandable - you have a lifetime to help him understand - my husband was absolutely clueless at first but he is my total rock now. A lot of people who have not experienced this will not understand and will try to project their normal onto your situation. That is normal too. I have learned to not look for validation from people who are inexperienced with these issues because it is often too hard for them to fathom.

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