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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Toxic parents? WWYD

97 replies

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 27/08/2022 11:36

Long term user, new account to post an issue that’s been troubling me for a long time. On one hand I think it’s narcissism, control and manipulation; and on the other I’m so confused as to what the hell this is. It is bloody toxic though.

It concerns my parents, primarily my mother, and more recently, my father (although perhaps it’s always been both). I don’t want to drip feed too much or be to revealing, but their behaviour has struck something in me recently that I no longer want to engage as it’s never positive for me, or fosters any love or support ie not conductive to a good outcome. I’ve been more troubled by guilt recently on this as DH and I are emigrating. DH has recently lost his mother and is of the opinion I should see them before I go etc so I can be the morally righteous one, not have regrets should anything happen etc. however…

My parents have been hellish. Most of my life, however we have functioned, or mainly I accepted the control and manipulation. Now I’m a lot older, wiser, I see them and their nonsense and I don’t have time for it.

Some recent examples are hellish messages I’ve received from my mother and volumes of vitriol all centred around how I DARED to elope to get married (lol) and how difficult it is for THEM, and how we have not ACCEPTED PRESENTS from their friends and family. To be clear, we are private people, who don’t want a fuss, didn’t invite anyone and want people to spend their own money on themselves. We are acutely aware times are hard, hence we graciously declined peoples generosity, but this wasn’t enough for my mother. The same mother who persistently sent me ‘mother of the bride’ outfit pictures of ‘what she would have worn, had she been invited’. The same mother who didn’t congratulate me or my new DH on the day of the wedding or thereafter. Not even a card. Parents are furious I didn’t have the wedding of the century, and that they couldn’t shout about it on Facebook etc. Far be it their concern their only daughter should actually marry someone she loves, you know, for the right reasons! That doesn’t matter to them though;

I stupidly tried to engage them in advance of eloping out of respect and they made it all about them. Over FaceTime they cried, raged, but never once said they were happy for us. They then ignored both DH and I and the imminent wedding in all subsequent comms. I’ve not seen them
since April and have no desire to. We married shortly thereafter. Parents notably absent in the nice messages of congratulations we received, cards, genuinely people happy for us - that’s all we asked.

The latest in a long line of abuse has come with the fore mentioned string of vitriol and rage you could expect from the narcissist that is being ignored. I suspect my mother is a narcissist and my father an enabler. When my mother kicks off, I just ignore her. No point in engaging. Well she raged, continuously on message, managing to bring my DH into matters to guilt trip me for daring not to reply to her latest outbursts centred around me not complying with her demands, essentially. She starts: ‘does DH know you are ignoring your mother’ etc.

Then I get the messages from father ‘speak to your mother’. I ask him if he knows why I’m not speaking with her to which he replies no, and neither does she. I then tell him it’s the way she treats me and messages she sends and he says he’s read them and ‘what’s the issue’. The issue is that the messages essentially say ‘what is wrong with you, why are you refusing gifts, this is difficult for us as parents’ (it has nothing to do with them, it’s my life); and ‘answer me, one day you will be sorry’ (of course the latter is the threat about her dying and I should feel guilty for not accepting her shit, like this is my fault. When all that fails, she tries the heartstrings by bringing DH into it so he can know what a terrible person his wife is..

So my father refuses to see that both my mother and his behaviour is completely out of order by extension by closing ranks and thinking that’s acceptable. My difficulty now is we are emigrating. My father is very troubled by this and can’t understand why we won’t see them/don’t come to see them and in fact following up my ignoring of both parents after my father refused to see the issue with a question of why do I not come to see them. Why would I want to? They’ve never once said they’re happy for me/us, only offer negativity and are deeply bitter and troubled people. I just want to live my life and be happy. They bring me down so much.

I feel a bit guilt tripped by the move and DH saying I should see them. I don’t know what to do anymore. I know if I’m stupid enough to reply it just escalates. I said to my father before I cut off his comms that mother should apologise and not repeat that, he doesn’t see the issue. If I re-engage I feel like I’m condoning their nonsense and so, the cycle repeats.

I am utterly done with the frustration of this, the guilt and heartbreak. They aren’t what I want and I’m clearly not what they want. We are no good to one another. DH on the one hand tells me he can’t stand seeing me upset about it all the time and indulging it and to walk away which I have done; and on the other that I should see them before we emigrate. Which fucking is it? I can’t win. DH even floated the idea of one big ‘last family Christmas’ with both families before we leave wtf. I said don’t be ridiculous.

I’m sorry this is terribly long and not very cogent. I just don’t know where to turn. There’s huge amounts more to this as there is with every story, but these are the main and recent highlights. I’d really appreciate any advice.

OP posts:
Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 30/08/2022 13:55

@VanillaParkersBowl thanks for your message and indeed, there is probably a lot here. I realise I’ve been gaslit for years and I’ve stupidly kept the status quo ‘because they’re family’, but something has clicked in me now and I don’t think I can ignore it any longer.

You’re so right that they won’t change. They hate my decisions. The sad thing is I haven’t at all (IMHO) been a bad kid; I was always diligent, worked hard, did well for myself and asked nothing from no one. But nothing was good enough as I wasn’t into their religion and they’ll always disapprove of my ‘life choices’.

I’ve spent the morning really low about it but I also reasonably know there’s nothing I can do to change it. I’ve exhausted every option and I just can’t keep going on like this. I’ll be the problem to them, I always will be.

OP posts:
Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 30/08/2022 13:57

@MzHz sorry if my message sounded like it was having a go at you, it absolutely wasn’t, but I can see how it may have been taken that way! I was more sharing my frustration at my parents not being happy at me in that post than you. Sorry.

@RandomMess I know, huge regrets there. But to be honest, it wouldn’t matter if it was the elopement or something else - there’s always something to have a go at me about / disagree with my life choices.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 30/08/2022 14:08

Emigrate and be happy; the best thing you can do here is to live well. With you out of their immediate line of fire going forward they may turn against each other.

Women like your mother cannot do relationships so the men in their lives are either as narcissistic as they are or are otherwise discarded. You dad is indeed his wife's enabler here as well as her secondary abuser. These people have not changed fundamentally since your own childhood.

You have indeed tried your whole life. You will need to grieve for the relationship you should have had with your parents rather than the one you actually got. You owe your parents nothing here, let alone a relationship. Any and all residual hope of them changing has to be let go of completely.

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 30/08/2022 14:18

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you for your message. I think the last sentence in particular is one I need to repeat over and over.

I guess I’ve struggled with my parents not validating me all my life and to a large extent, gaslighting me.

Ive a therapist who I’ve spoken to for a long time on this about but I’m thinking of ditching. She only keeps suggesting I go LC (which I already am!) and seeing them twice a year type thing. I feel doing so doesn’t ever address their abuse or my problem with it, and only condones it. I suppose I just want to be told it’s ok to feel how I do and I’m sorry to say that I feel there’s no love lost anymore and the only way forward is alone. To be honest, when I look back I was alone most of my life anyway.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 30/08/2022 14:23

Self protection here is necessary. Being LC with such disordered of thinking people does not really work out and can be exhausting in its own right.

I would ditch that therapist pronto; this person has no real understanding of what narcissistic abuse can and does do to a person.

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 30/08/2022 14:26

@AttilaTheMeerkat I agree. One of the (many) ‘issues’ my parents tend to have with me is that I cannot stand any injustice, and if something isn’t right I will be the one to speak out. They just complain, complain and never address

I’m afraid my therapist has the my parents notion of ‘keep the peace’, ‘easy life’; but for who exactly and why? The only peace one can ever achieve with persons like this is without them at all.

I feel like I just want people in my life to understand why I’m doing what I’m doing and this was not a rash or easy decision. I didn’t ask for it to be this way, but it’s the only way to live happily going forward.

OP posts:
VanillaParkersBowl · 30/08/2022 14:32

It is absolutely okay to feel as you do, Gonewith, but people who have not experienced similar to what you have tend not to understand.

It is a very lonely existence being the victim of a narcissist. Being on your own once you are free from them, in my experience, is anything but lonely.

I’ll be the problem to them, I always will be.

This is going to sound batshit but it wasn't you as such, you just happened to be there. If you had a sister she might have experienced the same. A brother may well have been the golden child. They need a victim, it just happens to be whoever's most convenient for them. As Attila says, they may well turn on each other now.

I'm sorry you were feeling down this morning. I hope you can soon find someone to help you unravel all you've been through with them and move on to a happier new life Flowers

Mossstitch · 30/08/2022 14:35

You can never address the abuse I'm afraid as they will never accept they are in the wrong nor apologize. If you got an apology it would be a 'non' apology as in 'I'm sorry that YOU feel that way but.......' and they would be back to gaslighting you and playing the victim! Took me til nearly 60 to realise/accept that it was my mother that wasn't normal and she was making me ill with stress.
Move away, grieve for the relationship that you should have had, try to extinguish the guilt which has been conditioned in you from childhood, although very difficult, and enjoy your life. You won't miss them (other than the blissful peace) you will miss the 'idea' of them as in having a normal family...... But you will have to accept that your name will blackened as they enjoy playing the victim to anybody who will listen and that people who haven't endured these dysfunctional people will not be able to fully understand it. 💐

VanillaParkersBowl · 30/08/2022 14:45

I feel like I just want people in my life to understand why I’m doing what I’m doing and this was not a rash or easy decision. I didn’t ask for it to be this way, but it’s the only way to live happily going forward.

Be prepared to find out who your friends are. Those who are in with your parents, or more realistically are keeping on their 'good' side, will choose not to understand, may blame you, may dump you. The people you lose, if any, are not worth keeping anyway.

True friends, even if they don't understand because they've thankfully not experienced it, will listen to what you have to say. They will not judge.

Any difficulties you encounter as you start your new life will be nothing compared to the hell your parents have put you through. If you can survive them you can do this and you can do it roaring! 💪

MzHz · 30/08/2022 15:10

You have nothing to apologise for @Gonewiththewindbeforelong! i was worried i'd upset you, but glad to see you're not :)

I know @AttilaTheMeerkat she's one of my dearest dearest people I have yet to meet face. She really know s her stuff on this. She's been my own voice of reason on more than one occasion.

Perhaps your therapist isn't advocating NC, because of the effect it would have on you. Perhaps in her mind, advising LC will help you disengage and stop giving a shit about righting the wrongs or your parents wrong image of you. I'm years down the line here so I know the pointlessness of that idea.

So tell yourself that LC is fine, and then sit back and see what happens. If you don't contact her, let her make the move. If she does, reply grey rock and give her nothing, and if she doesn't, you're off the hook. the main thing is to make peace with yourself.

I was once described as the 'Tricky one' by my mum's H. I asked him what he meant by that (I think i was supposed to just allow him that space to malign me, i was supposed to just STFU) he went absolutely BATSHIT at me for questioning him. Yet I was the one who was the problem.

They create these roles for us that enable their treatment of us. when we open our eyes to it or ask questions we are rocking the core of their universe. Their entire worth and self-esteem are built on their lies to themselves.

I feel like I just want people in my life to understand why I’m doing what I’m doing and this was not a rash or easy decision. I didn’t ask for it to be this way, but it’s the only way to live happily going forward

Yeah, been there too. Even though my Aunt and Uncle were there at first hand to see what my M did, i STILL get asked by the Uncle 'have you seen your mum?' i know why he asks, but it still hurts.

My aunt doesn't ask, she gets it, but it's the behaviour her mother exhibited that my mum too picked up, so her childhood wasn't all plain sailing. Aunt was the Golden Child. There is a whole other thread about how that is not all it seems to be either...

My take on if there is any raising of eyebrows when i say I'm NC with my mum is "There are sides of people you will never get to see, and not one single person cuts their mother off without something really significant happening. She may never have been hurtful to you, and I'm glad of that, but that was not my experience of her and at the end of the day, i have to protect myself and my family"

Your main focus is your immediate family, DH/DC. That is all that matters. You will need to grieve for her, for the parents you didn't have, but none of this was your fault love.

MzHz · 30/08/2022 15:11

You will feel down about this. a lot, for a long time.

That's because it IS so sad, but it gets easier to bear. it hurts less and less.

MzHz · 30/08/2022 15:20

sorry for multiple posts, but another thing I am thinking is that your impending emigration is what is looming large and you're worrying about what happens on the other side

I read somewhere once that the anticipation of fear is worse than the fear itself. I felt this keenly when the abusive relationship I was in was coming to an end, he was due to leave the country and I was worried about how it would be once he'd gone. it was the most agonising part of the whole thing, the summit, the peak, the wave crashing on me.

So give yourself permission to make the right decisions for you and your h, own those decisions and know that you can justify them. Then do it. it will be easier on the other side of this.

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 31/08/2022 10:54

@VanillaParkersBowl thank you for your message. It is difficult and I do feel very isolated and lonely. In some ways my big move is coming at the right time, it’s just galling I don’t have any family support.DH’s father is lovely though and has always treated me as one of his own, he genuinely cares and is interested in me, which at times makes it more lonely my own family are not.

@Mossstitch so true about the ‘non apology’. I don’t even think they’ll give me that - ever. They’ll enjoy playing the victim card now to the wider family about how awful I am, how little I care for my family/how I left without saying goodbye etc etc. Never any cognisance for how their behaviour impacts… no one really cuts their family out without a very good reason as a PP said…

@MzHz sorry you were made to feel that way. It’s awful when you try and reasonably question an injustice and you’re attacked like that, but that seems to be the narcissists way/their flying monkeys. Or that’s certainly been my experience. I think in my head my father isn’t as bad as my mother in that the awful words don’t come from him, yet when challenged he goes equally ballistic and never acknowledges the wrong in what she says or does - so he’s totally complicit as far as I’m concerned. I read once that silence in the face of injustice is complicity and it’s so, so true.

I guess it may well also be true about the ‘fear of’ moving. In really, what am I really so scared about? Alienating my family who treat me so badly? I’m not and have no intention of telling them the ‘date’, or any further details. They apparently hate all my decisions and all I believe in anyway, and without behaving like them, they’ve ‘had their chance’ to put this right and I’m now seeing this decision as theirs in many ways to alienate me as they point blank refuse to acknowledge anyone else’s feelings other than their own. I also increasingly feel that their ‘feelings’ are misplaced as parents - more concerned with how the optics are that their daughter emigrates without seeing them than the actual daughter that’s emigrating if you see what I mean?!

OP posts:
billy1966 · 31/08/2022 12:29

Your parents can complain as much as they like and to whom they like.

That is their choice.

They may indeed get a very sympathetic ear to their face.

But privately, whether these people admit it out loud, they will think there is something very strange in a daughter eloping and then moving abroad without contact with her parents.

They will definitely believe they have not got the whole story.

People with good relationships and a happy family history do NOT move abroad without contacting their family.

GreenManalishi · 31/08/2022 13:00

This is a lot, I feel for you. Even though you are now 40 so much has been programmed into you by these people from an early age so it's easier to say, oh just go NC and leave them to it, than done. You may well be feeling scared about alienating your family, even though you can rationalise things now as an adult. There is guilt about emigrating even in an uncomplicated family situation, that's absolutely normal, but maybe the guilt of not seeing them before you go is pressing right now.

Part of the low you're feeling maybe the acceptance that the emigration has forced your hand somewhat and you need to make a decision to either see them before you go, or not, and you don't want to. That's sad, you're right to feel how you do.

I think your OH sounds supportive, he's in a very different postion having just lost the mother he loved and had a good relationship with, it's human nature when someone is lost to want to pull the ones we have closer, but not realistic in your case. The Waltons you are not, but he sounds like he wants to support you in the decision you reach even though he can't fix things for you, understandably. On the one hand he doesn't want to see you suffering and upset so tells you to stay away from them, on the other he wouldn't want you to regret not seeing them before you go, both things can be true and he doesn't hold the answer.

The emigration will put distance between you so at least physical contact with them doesn't have to be considered any more once you move. I'd also try and find a therapist in your new place who has specific interest in this kind of relationship, it really does have to be seen to be believed doesn't it?!

Could you tolerate the thought of a short meeting in a public place before you leave? How would that feel? Could you meet for a lunch somewhere neutral then no matter how badly behave, you can always leave at any point knowing you tried? That could just sound absolutely impossible, in which case there you have your answer. I'm really sorry you're going through this and wish you every success anda bright future together in your new country with your chosen family.

Creepymanonagoatfarm · 31/08/2022 13:28

I have been nc with my dps for 20 years.
When I met dh he was trying to rebuild a relationship with his dm. Which ended badly and she dumped him, and us. And our dc. Fil followed suit. She told anyone who listen /read as sent emails - that we had took our dc from her... She saw him 3 times. They have skewed memories ime op.
Send a card.
Move as planned.
And agree on that flight never to have their names mentioned in your new life.
Ever.
Been over 7 years of bliss here...
No regrets.

Rainbowbaby13 · 31/08/2022 13:30

Gonnagetacatwhenimovein · 27/08/2022 13:15

In fairness I’d be devastated if after raised my daughter she didn’t invite me to her wedding and then moved to another country. Pretty heart breaking.

Depends how you raise your daughter because ops parents sound like a nightmare and I can't blame her for leaving them out besides it's not like she just left them out she didn't invite anyone

Also just because people are parents doesn't mean they are entitled to be present at life events if they are shit parents - my dad always says just because I'm your dad doesn't mean you have to like me I still have to earn respect

VanillaParkersBowl · 01/09/2022 08:39

@Gonewiththewindbeforelong It's a big, brave step you're taking, the right step, and we are only randoms on the internet but we are here for you too Flowers

Grumpusaurus · 01/09/2022 11:24

OP, you really do not need anyone's permission to go completely NC with your parents. Having lost a beloved parent, I understand that your DH's advice came from a good place. Even if knows all of the story about your parent's he hasn't had such an unhealthy, toxic relationship, so probably feels nostalgic and sentimental. I would focus on what you need to do before your move and minimise any stress, which includes especially your parents. You could at any time get back in touch if you really wanted to but right now, I doubt it would add anything positive to your life. Not all therapists understand or are good when it comes to toxic parents and they are not infallible. The advice is crap. Best to find a better therapist for your next stage in life.

catandcoffee · 01/09/2022 13:37

OP go and live your life.
Change your phone number.
They will never change as they don't think they have a problem.
You only get one life...Live it well.💐

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 01/09/2022 16:48

@billy1966 you make a very valid point there. I’m sure in front of my parents people will feign shock etc, but once back home themselves they will wonder: what really did happen there?

I hope (perhaps naively) that those who do and did know me (family, family friends), would know this wouldn’t be something I would do without good reason.

I think all my life I’ve cared too much about what others think and people pleased.

@GreenManalishi thanks for your message and I think you’ve managed to capture exactly what DH has been trying to do, albeit failing a wee bit between my frustration. Sadly, and I know it may reflect poorly on me, I just can’t imagine with things being the way they are right now being able to meet - even on mutual ground in public. The anxiety is too much for me and I do feel a bit that I need to, for once with them, be absolutely firm that their behaviour will not be tolerated without even acknowledgement on their part it’s not ok. I clearly know the latter won’t happen, but it’s a bill I’m prepared to die on for my own mental health.

@Creepymanonagoatfarm sorry you had to go through that. I‘ m very glad you’ve found peace and happiness away from it - I’m beginning to realise this is the future and I should have done it years ago. There was a terrible incident some years ago whereby my parents were so awful to me with words and then physically threw me around to the point of bruises and wouldn’t let me leave their home, that I had to call the police. With hindsight I should of course never spoke to them again. It was terrifying. My mother, who works with MH services (admin thank god, no decision making ability) was threatening me that if I didn’t comply with her she would get me sectioned. I was clearly terrified this may have any clout (even though I knew reasonably it couldn’t), and between that and the physical damage to me (bad, bad bruises, she threw a glass of wine over me), I called the police. I feel embarrassed I still speak to them tbh.

@Rainbowbaby13 thank you, as my part above, respect does indeed need to be earned. I realise I should have left this toxicity many years ago.

@VanillaParkersBowl I really appreciate your posts on here. I’ve struggled this whole time with feeling validated on the decision as it’s such a big one, and I really, really needed to read that today.

@Grumpusaurus you’re so right about not needing the advice, I’ve just fallen back into the trap of them being my only family et Al. Then realised they’ve exploited and manipulated that fact to try and control me. The narcissistic rage always rears it’s ugly hear when I don’t comply. I just need to live my life. I’ve made the boundaries clear and it’s them that can’t accept the fact I won’t have bad feelings and bitterness around my future. Frankly, I worked too hard to move away from them and their nonsense, and I’ve built a great family for myself with DH and we have this exciting new start.. it’s just all come to a head and I’ll suppose my parents are bitter, very bitter.

@catandcoffee thank you! I needed to read that today. I will fully intend on getting a new number, mainly out of necessity as it is another country, but I’m sure looking forward to the freedom and new start where they (my parents) won’t know anything about me or try and meddle/comment on my decisions.

OP posts:
billy1966 · 01/09/2022 19:26

That incident is truly shocking and even a bit unbelievable.

Pack those bags and do NOT look back.

Grieve the parents you didn't get and move on.

You can gain acceptance of this and living a great life far away is the way to do it.

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 01/09/2022 19:55

@billy1966 that’s what I intend on doing. Unfortunately it is true. I posted about it on MN at the time under an old user and had some sound advice, particularly from a user called justinlou which I stupidly thought to ignore ‘because they were my parents’.. it was only inevitable it would end up here again. I dare say the abuse won’t be as prevalent since DH on the scene (was single back then). Notably, any criticism for me has always been saved for when DH is out of the room/sight so they can do the ganging up on me. There’s a lot to the wider story, clearly, and I know what I need to do. I just hate that I feel so guilty!

OP posts:
billy1966 · 01/09/2022 21:38

As in unbelievably shocking!

The targeting you when he is out of earshot is classic bullying behaviour.

Sneaky and deliberate.

Allow your self a certain amount of time, maybe 10 minutes a day, to feel guilty.

Then pack it away.

The sooner you leave the better.

Your new life and the many miles between you will definitely help.

No person need ever feel guilty about protecting themselves from someone who would assault.

This is ALL on them.

VanillaParkersBowl · 02/09/2022 10:24

Good grief, Gonewith, that is shocking.

You have been groomed to feel guilt. It's one of the emotions they rely on to keep you dancing to their abusive tune. I agree with Billy, allow yourself to feel it for short times then concentrate on other things to take your mind off it. You'll probably find that as you physically and mentally distance yourself from the abusers the less time you'll be willing to spend on it.