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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Toxic parents? WWYD

97 replies

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 27/08/2022 11:36

Long term user, new account to post an issue that’s been troubling me for a long time. On one hand I think it’s narcissism, control and manipulation; and on the other I’m so confused as to what the hell this is. It is bloody toxic though.

It concerns my parents, primarily my mother, and more recently, my father (although perhaps it’s always been both). I don’t want to drip feed too much or be to revealing, but their behaviour has struck something in me recently that I no longer want to engage as it’s never positive for me, or fosters any love or support ie not conductive to a good outcome. I’ve been more troubled by guilt recently on this as DH and I are emigrating. DH has recently lost his mother and is of the opinion I should see them before I go etc so I can be the morally righteous one, not have regrets should anything happen etc. however…

My parents have been hellish. Most of my life, however we have functioned, or mainly I accepted the control and manipulation. Now I’m a lot older, wiser, I see them and their nonsense and I don’t have time for it.

Some recent examples are hellish messages I’ve received from my mother and volumes of vitriol all centred around how I DARED to elope to get married (lol) and how difficult it is for THEM, and how we have not ACCEPTED PRESENTS from their friends and family. To be clear, we are private people, who don’t want a fuss, didn’t invite anyone and want people to spend their own money on themselves. We are acutely aware times are hard, hence we graciously declined peoples generosity, but this wasn’t enough for my mother. The same mother who persistently sent me ‘mother of the bride’ outfit pictures of ‘what she would have worn, had she been invited’. The same mother who didn’t congratulate me or my new DH on the day of the wedding or thereafter. Not even a card. Parents are furious I didn’t have the wedding of the century, and that they couldn’t shout about it on Facebook etc. Far be it their concern their only daughter should actually marry someone she loves, you know, for the right reasons! That doesn’t matter to them though;

I stupidly tried to engage them in advance of eloping out of respect and they made it all about them. Over FaceTime they cried, raged, but never once said they were happy for us. They then ignored both DH and I and the imminent wedding in all subsequent comms. I’ve not seen them
since April and have no desire to. We married shortly thereafter. Parents notably absent in the nice messages of congratulations we received, cards, genuinely people happy for us - that’s all we asked.

The latest in a long line of abuse has come with the fore mentioned string of vitriol and rage you could expect from the narcissist that is being ignored. I suspect my mother is a narcissist and my father an enabler. When my mother kicks off, I just ignore her. No point in engaging. Well she raged, continuously on message, managing to bring my DH into matters to guilt trip me for daring not to reply to her latest outbursts centred around me not complying with her demands, essentially. She starts: ‘does DH know you are ignoring your mother’ etc.

Then I get the messages from father ‘speak to your mother’. I ask him if he knows why I’m not speaking with her to which he replies no, and neither does she. I then tell him it’s the way she treats me and messages she sends and he says he’s read them and ‘what’s the issue’. The issue is that the messages essentially say ‘what is wrong with you, why are you refusing gifts, this is difficult for us as parents’ (it has nothing to do with them, it’s my life); and ‘answer me, one day you will be sorry’ (of course the latter is the threat about her dying and I should feel guilty for not accepting her shit, like this is my fault. When all that fails, she tries the heartstrings by bringing DH into it so he can know what a terrible person his wife is..

So my father refuses to see that both my mother and his behaviour is completely out of order by extension by closing ranks and thinking that’s acceptable. My difficulty now is we are emigrating. My father is very troubled by this and can’t understand why we won’t see them/don’t come to see them and in fact following up my ignoring of both parents after my father refused to see the issue with a question of why do I not come to see them. Why would I want to? They’ve never once said they’re happy for me/us, only offer negativity and are deeply bitter and troubled people. I just want to live my life and be happy. They bring me down so much.

I feel a bit guilt tripped by the move and DH saying I should see them. I don’t know what to do anymore. I know if I’m stupid enough to reply it just escalates. I said to my father before I cut off his comms that mother should apologise and not repeat that, he doesn’t see the issue. If I re-engage I feel like I’m condoning their nonsense and so, the cycle repeats.

I am utterly done with the frustration of this, the guilt and heartbreak. They aren’t what I want and I’m clearly not what they want. We are no good to one another. DH on the one hand tells me he can’t stand seeing me upset about it all the time and indulging it and to walk away which I have done; and on the other that I should see them before we emigrate. Which fucking is it? I can’t win. DH even floated the idea of one big ‘last family Christmas’ with both families before we leave wtf. I said don’t be ridiculous.

I’m sorry this is terribly long and not very cogent. I just don’t know where to turn. There’s huge amounts more to this as there is with every story, but these are the main and recent highlights. I’d really appreciate any advice.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 27/08/2022 16:43

People who don't have toxic parents just do not truly understand what it's like.

We all project our personal experience and he is worried about you regretting cutting contact when one of them dies because he is probably having regret/sadness about his relationship with his Mum due to her death - but he had a healthy relationship with her.

He is being human.

Cut contact and be free. It's incredibly liberating. Yes it's strange when they die but truth is you will have been grieving for what should have been for many years already.

redboxer321 · 27/08/2022 16:50

@ Endlesslypatient82 Your username needs work.

OP, this is one of the few posts I've read where I agree that the person mentioned is actually a narcissist (rather than having some narcissistic traits which pretty much all people do to some extent).
Narcissistic abuse, and the devastating affect it has on your core being, is something that is hard for those who haven't experienced it to understand. Your DH sounds like he wants only what is best for you but he doesn't get it. And that's completely understandable.

I get that you don't just want to leave your parents without saying goodbye. How about asking them out for lunch? Not around Christmas or any occasion and not too long before you leave. They will almost certainly decline anyway because they want you where they can abuse you - or mother does at least enabled by father. That way your conscience is clear. Don't engage with any nonsense and if it gets too much, get up, pay the bill and leave.
When you get to where you are going, book in with a therapist who understands narcissism. Not someone who has it listed as one of the areas they offer therapy in but a specialist.
You sound like you need to tell your story to someone who understands.
Hopefully, in time, you will be able to move on (I'm still stuck in the story sadly).

Then either LC or NC whatever works for you.
I think you will feel a great weight has been lifted once you are no longer in the same country.
Good luck!

redboxer321 · 27/08/2022 17:04

Whoops! I should have read the post more carefully.
Whether you meet them or not is of course entirely up to you and you shouldn't feel guilty if you don't but it might help bring some type of closure. If you do, make sure you don't engage in their shit while arranging it.

Also, i didn't see what RandomMess wrote when i posted but they pretty much nail it.

MzHz · 27/08/2022 17:20

billy1966 · 27/08/2022 13:08

OP, he does not sound like a nice partner.

I would have huge issues with how he is causing you further pain over this.

@billy1966 i so admire your opinion on pretty much everything and no Change here now.

I think you and I are so ridiculously similar :)

wrt the last point, I’d suggest here that - as you’ll know - if you haven’t had parents like these, you’ll think like the dh. You’ll give them one more chance so they will see how they’re wrong etc etc

but as we know, as @Gonewiththewindbeforelong knows in her bones, her parents are never going to “see the light” they KNOW they’re in the right and everyone else is wrong.

that LC situation you dream of with an apology- apology will never ever come.

I agree that having a therapist to talk to, who gets it and is supportive will help unpack, but nothing, absolutely nothing can ever undo the hurt/pain of parents like these. The only option we have is to accept that we can’t fix anything, that there’s nothing we did, they’re never going to change and it’s utterly pointless to think anything else. We need to forgive ourselves and do the best we can to forget the pain.

my oh talked me back into seeing one of my family members a couple of months ago. Actually made me feel really mean about making up an excuse not to have them.

well even I couldn’t have foreseen how badly the situation would be. He saw this and apologised and now agrees that there will never be another meet up again.

so that’s it. Mother is NC, Dad is LC Because he couldn’t ever be arsed and sibling has turned into a carbon copy of our mother.

@Gonewiththewindbeforelong If you need definitive proof that it’s not going to work, then do the last meet up. Say goodbye (even in your head) and grin and bear your way through it

it’s all about you now. It really is

oh and if you elope, of course the parents will be sad and unlikely to want to send card, so don’t use that as a stick to measure anything- let go of the burden of that part. It’ll help.

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 27/08/2022 17:39

@RandomMess yes, I think you’ve articulated that incredibly well and that the grieving for any inevitability down the road has began.

@redboxer321 i did snigger at your comment at ‘endlesslypatient’ having none, so thanks for that. DH does want to help and knowing him as I do, I know it comes from a genuine place. Once I articulated (again) my concerns to him today after posting this he saw that his suggestions were unhelpful and I did go as far to say as I felt they were both pressuring and guilting me, and unfairly so. He’s apologised profusely and I don’t believe it was at all his intention and he’s advised the ball is my court and he will be there to support irrespective of what I choose to do.

@MzHz its not that a dream of an apology as such, I just realise it’s idealistic and of course to apologise would be an admission of wrongdoing and we all know narcissists would rather be dead than admit they’re wrong! I do have a therapist and have had for a long time, but think I may need a specialist one in narcissism now.

DH and I are already married, it’s not that we plan to elope - we did! We told parents in advance out of respect and it backfired completely.

Essentially not only are they horrid and narcissistic, they fail to be at all happy for me in any aspect of my life. I’d go as far to say there’s even jealously there.

DH and I are fortunate in our careers, but we worked hard to get here. Parents, I suspect resent that and our travel, and future plans. My therapist reckons they’re deeply unhappy within themselves, but who knows. Not for me to call.

All I do know is they’ve never expressed any happiness in our big life decisions coming to fruition or the fact their daughter finally met the one. Btw before DH I had lived by myself for over a decade, working my way up and tbh I was lonely and watched everyone else’s happiness.. I feel incredibly grateful to have what I have and I know those who genuinely care for me would feel the same. I think I’m just done with people who I think were genuinely happy when I was low and lonely, it’s not right.

OP posts:
Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 27/08/2022 17:40

Ps refarding the elopement no bloody wonder that’s what we chose to do, I thoroughly, thoroughly recommend it. I guess some people see marriage as a community function and that’s fair enough. For us it was about the two of us, away from the noise and fuss, and it was wonderful!

OP posts:
Brigante9 · 27/08/2022 23:36

Why did you refuse gifts? You chose to elope-fine, but if people want to send you a gift, why would you say no?

LimeSong · 28/08/2022 01:17

^some posters are of course missing the point going on about gifts etc. I think many MN posters just come on here to pointlessly criticise people as a kind of weird, negative hobby.

re your DH, no idea why posters are castigating him either. I am sure he is trying to be helpful. But of course he won’t be able to understand the emotional fuckwittery that these kind of parents generate. So, even though you want support from him, the fact is his opinions are probably just gonna muddy the waters. As unless you’ve been through this kind of madness it’s unlikely you’ll truly get the whole issue.

I think the first response on this thread is probably the best. What do YOU want to do? That may just take some time and reflection. Perhaps you could even get a short term therapist to support you?

I tend to think with parents like these, there is rarely any total resolution. It’s just the way it is. Do what you think is right for YOU, whatever that may be. You’ve tried your best, what else can you do?

It’s interesting and helpful getting outside perspectives or hearing others’ experience but they are not you, and what they recommend may not be right for YOU. For example I was told by someone not to write a letter to my abusive mother, advice which annoyed me, but I didn’t write it as a result. Looking back I SHOULD have, it was the right thing in MY circumstances. See what I mean?

So I would say do whatever you think is right for YOU. You will never get the positive response and honesty from them you want, whatever road or tactics you take, so really there is no objective right choice, only what suits you and brings you the most peace.

Endlesslypatient82 · 28/08/2022 06:37

If a group of anonymous posters who don’t know the Op from Adam have managed to grasp how abusive the OP’s parents are…. Why are people saying that we shouldn’t criticise the DH for saying the OP should see her parents because he can’t possibly understand the situation.

We understand it. On the basis of a couple of paragraphs. So why the heck can’t he?

Wildflowerbeauty · 28/08/2022 07:28

If you have the slightest bit doubt about whether you would feel guilty after moving away and not seeing them , I would go and see them . If you go , expect what you know you’ll get . See it as , I did the right thing for myself, so that when they die I have no guilt. Don’t go for them , go for you. Deep down, are you worried that if you go they might actually be nice ( false ) and this will confuse you and not give you the clean break you long for ?

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 29/08/2022 13:51

@Brigante9 we didn’t refuse gifts. My mother accused us of refusing gifts as I said upthread but so as not to drop feed, we told only our parents we were eloping. Months after we married my furious parents were still raging on at our aunties and uncles vis a vis ‘how dare we’ have done that and I think it guilted my poor aunt into offering us a gift via my mother. At this point in time we had just lost MIL suddenly and it wasn’t appropriate to be accepting gifts from people we never see, or celebrating whilst grieving a loss. I thanked my aunt profusely for thinking of us and for her kindness, but explained it wasn’t necessary, all we wanted was people to be happy for us.

You see how my narcissistic mother spun the whole thing round to us refusing gifts though, and how allegedly unreasonable we are. The best bit is my mother raged about how ‘hard it was for them’ that we didn’t accept gifts whilst MIL died and we arranged the funeral.

OP posts:
Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 29/08/2022 13:54

@LimeSong thank you for your post. I think that’s where I struggle and perhaps where DH has had difficulty in me not making an affirmative decision. I don’t feel any decision I make will be the right one.

I have very much felt that without the apology or promise not to repeat behaviour which I will never get, I’ve nowhere left to go. It’s on me if I keep accepting this behaviour, which is of course what will happen. I don’t want to live with guilt either, but then I’m not really sure what I’m meant to be guilty for? Societal norms that just because they’re my parents I should put up with their abuse and rages? I’m feeling too old for this now.

I don’t think the situation will ever truly give me peace and the more I think back over the years the angrier I am I’ve let the pattern repeat. Of course this incident here I’ve posted is the tip of the iceberg with their behaviour but they don’t see the wrong in their actions and I do. At an impasse

OP posts:
Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 29/08/2022 13:56

@Endlesslypatient82 go and change your user name eh. You’d think having a post removed by MN would have taught you to pipe down and look at the wider picture. Instead you seem to want to really hate on my DH who has only tried to support me, however misplaced the intentions were, all of this has been explained. Other posters get that.. why can’t you?

OP posts:
Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 29/08/2022 13:59

@Wildflowerbeauty I hear what you’re saying, I do, but I’m feeling so angry that by going I would be yet again condoning their piss poor behaviour and actions and green lighting it to continue. I’m leaning towards I’ve put the offer out there to see them on the condition of an acknowledgement their behaviour, actions and words were not ok.

If they can do that then we can have the final supper as it were. If they can’t, and I highly suspect this to be the case, then I feel I’ve done all I can reasonably do. I must at some point stand up for myself and get the message over that this is not ok and will not repeat. If I go along to this final dinner/whatever, they’ll continue the nonsense indefinitely. So really, it’s on them now

OP posts:
Unforgettablefire · 29/08/2022 14:15

I have no good advice but would just like to say my mother "disowned" me for ten years because I dared to stand up to a spoilt indulged family member.
I had an awful childhood. And those ten years were so easy.
She came knocking on my door about three years ago and there's been chaos and stress ever since. I'm seriously considering going nc but I know she'll play the victim to the whole family.

You're struggling because these people are your parents and it just feels wrong and against nature to want to be out of their lives. And you're terrified you'll make the wrong decision and live with regrets if anything happened to them. At the same time it's too much to deal with all the crap.
I hope you'll be ok, don't have any hesitation in moving away, people do this all the time but some parents are selfish and know what buttons to press.

Icepinkeskimo · 29/08/2022 14:21

Sometimes in our life we hit the stark and painful realisation that there are family members who are truly toxic. We can go through our life's picking up the pieces, and believing that things will get better. That's all we have ever known, and we just accept it until we know deep down it's not acceptable and whatever we do to appease them it can't be "fixed". Not because of lack of effort on our part, the other party is unwilling to budge or make any compromise.

I think OP whatever you do, your parents will always have an axe to grind on some front. It's your life, and you live it how you want. Dropping the weight of the pressure that you've carried around for so long will be a relief.

Dance to the own beat of your drum not your mothers. I have a faint hope that in time your mother and father may realise it's not all about them.

Ladywiddithethird · 29/08/2022 14:29

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 29/08/2022 14:50

@Unforgettablefire sorry that happened to you when you were younger and that getting back in touch has taken you back a bit. I can totally visualise how that could happen, and it must be so exasperating.

Oh yes I get the ‘victim’ card. My mother somehow managed to make my (very happy I may add) nuptials all about her disappointment (at not being able to get dressed up). Seriously, it was about her not getting her moment to shine, never mind marrying for love lol.

Yes, I’m moving away for a myriad of reasons. Career being the main driver, not lots to stay for with parents like these and tbh the crisis after crisis in the UK doesn’t make me feel I’d like to stay any longer than necessary.

OP posts:
Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 29/08/2022 14:55

@Icepinkeskimo Yes, you’ve hit the nail on the head. It’s funny really because mother and father have a very toxic relationship with my other aunt and uncle and when my uncle lost his job for reasons which we weren’t made party to (and frankly none of our business), my father fell out with him for over 18 months as my uncle wouldn’t ‘tell him the truth’.

Incredible, isn’t it? My uncles career and whatever happened - his choice or otherwise - was nothing to do with my father, and obviously very private and personal to him. Fair enough!

My father made a huge deal and decided all these spurious reasons as to why he thought uncle lost his job (stating drink driving and all sorts of really nasty stuff) with no fact whatsoever. I told him he was bang out of order and it’s nothing to do with him and uncles choice and the rage was like I’ve never seen! He phoned uncle up and raged that if he didn’t tell him the ‘truth’ they were done. The entitlement was unreal. This is how they operate.

Of course despite this they’ve since started talking to uncle and co, never acknowledged the job incident and are going on holiday soon. Until they fall out again as parents can’t control others actions, because that’s what it really comes down to I suspect.

Horribly toxic

OP posts:
MintJulia · 29/08/2022 14:57

Congratulations on your marriage.

I'd send your parents a card, saying that you had a lovely quiet wedding day which was what you wanted, that you are now happily married and you are sure they are happy for you.

Now you are going to move calmly on with your lives and not engage in any recriminations or drama.

Lots of love
Goneirhthewind

And then ignore them.

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 29/08/2022 15:02

@Ladywiddithethird I know, right?! It wasn’t about the presents ever though, it was about the control and parents using my choices without their ‘ok’ I.e. to get married as a weapon against me and trying to use family members generosity as guilt trips to me and DH.

I’m not at all grabby and I could never accept gifts in good conscience with that as a backdrop. I hope my responses to my aunt were met with the good grace in which they were intended.

My sibling and I have no relationship really as they’re a complete user (like parents). They get in relationships to move into their new partners home free or charge, and for the opportunity it brings them. Money obsessed, like parents. When all these relationships inevitably fail and they’re found out, they live at home with parents (mid 30s…) rent free. So sibling will never speak out against parents poor behaviour as it’s self serving to them to keep their mouth shut. I find that pathetic.

Another weird one was mother’s friend allegedly gave us a sum of money for our wedding. Never met set friend and suspect they’ve felt they had to to shut mother up. Mother has never sent this sum to DH or I which tbh I’m glad of as I am not at all comfortable with it, yet is raging we haven’t thanked the gifter whom we have never met nor do we have contact details for. Presume mother has pocketed the money too which is shocking. The whole thing is shocking .. we eloped to avoid all this nonsense but yet by telling parents they’ve managed to create drama. Oh the regrets I have!

OP posts:
Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 29/08/2022 15:03

@MintJulia we got married ages ago now, parents are refusing to acknowledge it. I’ve not seen them since and am effectively saying I’m not going to as there’s no pleasure in being around people who don’t have your best interests at heart, and are so, so bitter.

I have been ignoring them, it’s just coming to a head as the move is imminent.

OP posts:
VanillaParkersBowl · 29/08/2022 17:24

What a lot you have to unpick. I agree that therapy with a specialist in narcissism is a very good idea. Meantime Dr Ramani on Youtube is worth a look.

Your parents won't change. Whatever you do, it will not be right. If you do nothing they'll make it up. There is certainly never any 'winning' but worse there is no closure. You just have to accept the fact they are/were abusive, try and come to terms with it through therapy and break the cycle if you have children of your own.

For now, do what your instincts tell you. If you don't want to have any contact with them then don't, you owe them nothing.

Flowers
MzHz · 29/08/2022 17:26

Gonewiththewindbeforelong · 27/08/2022 17:40

Ps refarding the elopement no bloody wonder that’s what we chose to do, I thoroughly, thoroughly recommend it. I guess some people see marriage as a community function and that’s fair enough. For us it was about the two of us, away from the noise and fuss, and it was wonderful!

Oh I hope you don’t think I was criticising the decision to elope! Good god no! I can only imagine how it would have been without you making that very hard decision

you sound lovely. I wish the both of you all the very best. Don’t ever feel like you have to apologise or feel guilty about things you’ve worked for. Go forward and be happy. If these people can’t be happy for you, they don’t need to be in your life as they will only try to make you feel bad

RandomMess · 29/08/2022 19:01

Hindsight is wonderful, you should have eloped properly and not told them beforehand!

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