Rapidly deteriorating relationship with daughter

[Subaru4336]

My daughter is almost 14 and has always been fiercely independent, which is a good thing, but at the moment is causing big problems.

She has very long school days, and competes at a high level in a sport, which requires training nearly every night, weekend competitions, etc.

The problem is this; when she's at home she does the absolute bare minimum, won't do simple jobs without a big fuss, chooses to spend all of her time in her room on her phone, and is pretty rude and disrespectful. I generally have to ask her multiple times to do something, e.g., get her sports stuff ready for the next day's training before bed, or to put school uniform in the washing bin, the list goes on.

She's a good kid, but, seems to think it's the right of teenagers to hate their parents, and is always saying she hates being here, etc. Her phone causes a lot of disagreements as she seems to be in near constant conversation on Snapchat when she is home, which means she's always distracted by it, or forgets to do things because she's got distracted by it. I admit I'm concerned about addiction to things like Snapchat, she seems to need that validation from it, and a massive fear of missing something. Other parents seem less bothered by what their kids are doing, e.g., one was posting provocative photos of themselves aged 13, another was contacting boys she didn't know on Snap, aged 12 - parents seemingly oblivious.

I'm worried that the amount of arguments is damaging our relationship, but, I don't want her to just be allowed to do what she wants, when she wants. Anyone out the other side with some ways to navigate through this?

She absolutely can stack a dishwasher in the morning, she jumps out of bed easily...she just doesn't want to.

You seem very fixed on my daughter giving up a sport she loves which is most odd! I disagree that it's pointless unless she's at national level now, whether she stops at Uni or not. She's getting 90%+ in maths and science exams, I think she's doing brilliantly academically, that wasn't the reason for my post 😉

@AngelsWithSilverWings (& others) you've given me a lot of perspective, thank you.

There's some good advice about picking your battles, and employing natural consequences here. Also going easy on kids who have had a tough few years. Our teenagers are a work in progress.

There's also a lot of advice from people who don't understand young athletes. Our kids want to do their sports, we don't make them. They would be devastated if their sports stopped (indeed were devasated in lockdown).

Friendship groups exist outside school, squad mates are friends, and training and competition weekends are also social activities, with kids making friends for life.

Good luck op, I rather imagine our DDs have a lot in common. They probably even know each other!

@Reachforthestars00 thank you, definitely some good advice about the natural consequences, and also very reassuring to hear you experience similar with your daughter, I'm sure they probably do have loads in common and could well know each other!

You're absolutely right about friendships made through their sport, my daughter has had some amazing experiences with her swim mates, and attending residential open meets together, it's certainly not all work and no fun!...I would just really like her to be a bit more present with us, but totally take on board everyone's wise words, and will leave her alone a bit more!

Some is us have tried to say it politely but you sound intense.
The life situation sounds intense.
Sports are a great outlet for stress and intensity in my experience

The whole point of this page is to get a wide range of opinions. Some posters offering advice will have been in more similar situations, or have more similar backgrounds, and therefore their advice is more likely to resonate, and I've acknowledged those that have made suggestions that I think will work and help me and my daughter.

Just because I don't agree with what you're suggesting doesn't make you wrong, or your advice wrong, it just won't work for my child. You're hung up on her being exhausted and/or burnt out because for you, her life would make you/your child exhausted. But that doesn't make it true for us 🙃

Hi OP. I am a competitive swimmer too (although much older than your daughter, so naturally more mature and also run my own business as well as preparing for top national events). I get that it is hard and exhausting to balance training with her school and family commitments, but the concepts are not mutually exclusive, as many PP seem to think. It's all about organisation. In my case, I have to make sure my kit is ready, clothes are washed, work is done or the consequences are not just a telling off from coach! I also have family commitments. Rather than nag at her over chores, why not get her on your side. Sit down over a hot chocolate in neutral territory (perhaps a nice cafe after a Saturday morning training session) and ask her which household chores SHE would like to do. For example, I know a kid who hates washing up with a passion, but she loves running the hoover around or folding clothes (can do it with her music in). That way it looks like you are treating her as more of a grown up. If she is constantly texting, encourage her to have her friends over to revise/hang out, rather than being connected on apps. That could even be a set day a week, so she has something to look forward to. If getting her kit together is a problem, ask her how she thinks you could help her with it (not meaning you have to do it for her, could be something as small as giving her her own laundry bag in her room rather than one family one in the bathroom - I admit I have to have my laundry bag in the place I actually takes clothes off, or they would end up on the floor!)
Swimming is a unique sport, it becomes a part of your very identity. Just telling her 'you have to give it up', is not an option. If and when she does decide to stop one day, the de-transition from being an elite swimmer to a more casual swimmer (or not at all), will have to be carefully managed from a psychological POV, with input from coaches, you, her friends, maybe even a sports psychologist. Women who are not swim mums/wives will never get that, so don't worry about some of the previous comments.
Wishing you the best of luck! She doesn't sound like a bad kid, just that a few things need nipping in the bud. To be a swimmer means she has discipline instilled in her - no reason she can't be disciplined in other areas of life too!

Why does she have such long school days?

@Mariposista thank you so much, your reply is so helpful - she's always ravenous after Saturday morning training, so breakfast out and a chat is a great suggestion to try and understand each other and get to some agreement on some things.

Luckily her teachers comment on her organisation and self-discipline - a requirement of being a swimmer and getting school work done on time.

Thanks again, and good luck to you for the summer comps!

@ArmWrestlingWithChasNDave because the school she's at build in a lot of time within an extended school day for extra-curricular activities.

The nice hot chocolate or breakfast after training is a fab idea. I was going to suggest a cinema pass and regular trips as that was the one thing dd and I did that was regular and positive while she went through the tricky years. But anything like that which is for both of you to have time together without thinking about chores, homework etc

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!
Yes, organisation, discipline and swimming most often go hand in hand. IME, this often makes swimmers great students, businessmen/women and even parents (yes, a teammate who has won a WC is balancing her training with a management position and a baby!) 'I don't have time' doesn't enter our vocabulary - we don't say 'I can't', rather 'how can I?' This works in your favour here, she knows how to be disciplined, so it's a case of applying it to her home situation (which she is probably seeing as her safe space atm, where she can have a break from applying the same organisation and discipline as she does at training or school - ahem ahem, not the case!)

because the school she's at build in a lot of time within an extended school day for extra-curricular activities.

It sounds like she has a very busy life, so I'm not surprised that when she's home all she wants to do is sit on her phone. That doesn't mean she doesn't need to do any chores around the house, but I'd definitely choose my battles. If she doesn't take her kit then she won't be able to swim, so she'll soon learn. If she doesn't put her clothes in the basket, they don't get washed. She'll learn. Save any "nagging" for things that affect other people, not just her.

And personally I wouldn't grumble about her phone time.

She has very long school days, and competes at a high level in a sport, which requires training nearly every night, weekend competitions, etc.

My daughter does similar. She doesn't do any chores, as I think it's too much to expect, but I do ask her to tidy up after herself in her bedroom. She will often do this, and will make lists of what's needed for training and pack her own bag. She has enough to do keeping her homework up to date and any conditioning and training needed to be done at home.

I dont agree with that, she is well old enough to take responsibility for her presentation and ensuring that she puts her washing the right section on the right day is hardly onerous or above her.

Other minor chores wont have a personal effect on her if she doesnt do them, hence things that have natural consequences are much better for teaching kids about cause and effect.

Not stacking the dishwasher will cause what exactly? nothing, except a telling off

Not having clean clothes or her kit ready for training will impact on her to the degree she wont forget it again

I don't expect her to do her own washing, but I would like her to put her washing in the basket so that it can be washed without me going round looking for it. As @Mariposista suggested, a washing basket in her room might help here.

@@ArmWrestlingWithChasNDave one of the reasons I grumble about her phone time is that she's frequently on it before school, and then messages to say she's forgotten sports kit, can we drop it in to her. (Having said that, the natural consequences did work there when we started saying no.)

Hi OP, I'm going to start by saying that I think your DD sounds great so you have obviously got a lot right. She's hard-working, organised, committed, independent in many ways. A few things that have worked with me and my sporty DS16, do ignore if not relevant for you:

• as others have said, natural consequences work wonders and avoid the risk of her blaming you for an outcome that is her own fault or deciding it is unfair. So washing that's not in the basket doesn't get washed, say. As long as you give her a heads up that this is the new system, it's completely fair.
• I think it's important to make sure that you have interactions with her aren't always you telling her to do things. Even if there are a million things you want to say about what she hasn't done that she should have, it will damage your relationship if every time you talk to her it's to tell her off about something or even just remind her nicely about things undone. My DS actually pointed this out to me when I started doing it- I couldn't open my mouth without something about revision coming out- and I thought it was a really fair point. For one thing, there's no incentive to listen to you if she knows what you are going to say.
• We have firm rules about when and where phones are allowed and try to stick to them as a family- much harder to tell a teen to get off their phone if you are on yours a lot (no idea if you are, of course!)
• Doing something fun together is a great idea. I really liked PP's suggestion about going for a nice breakfast and making a plan with her about chores but I'd add that you could do this sometimes too and not talk about chores- in fact, try to talk about anything but.
• Sarah-Jayne Blakemore's book on the teenage brain is really good. One point to note is that teens really do perceive things differently, particularly facial expressions which they often interpret as more hostile than they actually are. Which explains that phenomenon where one is sitting there with a completely neutral or pleasant face and your teen suddenly shouts "WHAT???" like the Harry Enfield character. Teens genuinely can perceive things as hostile which other age groups find neutral, which explains a lot in terms of how they respond to stuff.

Anyway, sorry for the epic post. As I say, I think she sounds great and am sure you will get through this with style.

A swimmer? So she's up early at the pool and in a highly competitive environment? What's the goal? Family time is downtime. She's special. Have a talk about where the swimming will go.

She's at that age now. Look up what happens hormonally around 14. I remembering talking to a year 9 teacher and she said age 14 was the worst due to hormones. Gosh I even remember how I felt too (it was horrendous), add the additional pressure of her swimming and its the perfect recipe for an argument. Unfortunately phones are addictive too. Can you imagine someone telling you to get off your phone. I think a little more empathy and understanding will go a long way.

I'm usually all for natural consequences but at the moment I would tread carefully. I would say for now her one job for example should be emptying the dishwasher once a week. The uniform I would do for her after all she does have a particularly busy schedule. My advice would be to just let this particular year pass and see what happens.

It sounds like you have the mirror image of my DS. We have restricted his phone use due to his behaviour and inability to do anything that is requested of him which is also to his benefit.
Interesting that he can focus 100% on his training but not anything else. At least it's close to the end of swim season now, we've got very few meets now.

@Despinetta please don't apologise for a long post, it's really helpful, thank you, and I'll get a copy of the book.

@Glittertwins glad to know we're not alone!

This is probably taking this off a tangent but a part from perhaps being overwhelmed with all she is doing, although it's her own choice. She's not being bullied.
I put that because a friend of mine's daughter was being bullied badly online and she exhibited similar behaviour. If this has been her normal behaviour most of the time fine unfortunately it's her. But if it's a noticeable change I think it's worth looking into closer and I'd suggest insisting you look at some of her snapchats as they come through. Teenagers often bully on there as they disappear.

Oh and just for reference my friends daughter ended up anorexic and had to go into care for 6 months and is still having on going treatment after 2 years.

I have 3 teens. 2 are girls. Ages 15-17

Laminated list stuck in their wardrobe with jobs. Not a perfect solution, but it helps. Pocket money depends on them being done. Start treating her like an adult. Talk to her like she is one. Stay calm. Don’t shout back, or mimic a rude tone. I don’t ask about her personal life, friends etc. I wait until she brings something up and then show interest. Occasionally we have lovely chats. When I’m treated with disdain I ignore and walk away. I might say a calm “please don’t speak to me like that”.

i wash things that are in the wash basket. I might give a heads up when I’m putting a load on so they bring stuff to me but I don’t go looking for dirty clothes. “Did you wash my skirt?” questions are met with “did you put it in the washing basket?” I bring my son a coffee in the morning, but that’s it. If he goes back to sleep I don’t wake him. We’ve had a few instances when he’s woken after he should have left. But it’s rare now.

I don’t do breakfast or lunch for anyone anymore. Even on the weekend. If anyone wants a fry-up they can make their own. No bread for sandwiches? There’s a shop round the corner, and change in the money tray.

i fucking hate iPhone obsession. But I’ve gritted my teeth these last few months and relaxed my control. It’s time they learned to moderate themselves. That’s a work in progress. Obviously not at the dinner table etc.

they all clear up after dinner. That’s the deal. They have done for the last 2 years. If it isn’t done properly I call them back. I rarely have to do that now. It’s not all smooth sailing by any means, but I’m on my own with 3 teenagers and we have a pretty harmonious household. Honestly, the game changer was starting to treat them/ talk to them like adults, and ignoring snarky and rude comments (mostly). It’s hard, but i found returning with a neutral look and walking away seemed to have a calming effect on everyone.

Does she have any friends at school?
Or issues at school?

@pearly1792 I'm so sorry to hear about your friend's daughter, I hope that she eventually makes a good recovery. I'm confident my daughter isn't being bullied, she's actually really happy, just not with me! But, I'm still acutely aware of the broad dangers around social media, and content that young girls might be exposed to, and it does worry me.

@Turnthatoff I really like the sound of this approach, and think it's what's needed. Time for me to make some big changes with how I deal with the behaviour.

@Swayingpalmtrees she loves school, and has many friends, girls and boys, both there and through swimming.

So glad to hear that