Rapidly deteriorating relationship with daughter

[Subaru4336]

My daughter is almost 14 and has always been fiercely independent, which is a good thing, but at the moment is causing big problems.

She has very long school days, and competes at a high level in a sport, which requires training nearly every night, weekend competitions, etc.

The problem is this; when she's at home she does the absolute bare minimum, won't do simple jobs without a big fuss, chooses to spend all of her time in her room on her phone, and is pretty rude and disrespectful. I generally have to ask her multiple times to do something, e.g., get her sports stuff ready for the next day's training before bed, or to put school uniform in the washing bin, the list goes on.

She's a good kid, but, seems to think it's the right of teenagers to hate their parents, and is always saying she hates being here, etc. Her phone causes a lot of disagreements as she seems to be in near constant conversation on Snapchat when she is home, which means she's always distracted by it, or forgets to do things because she's got distracted by it. I admit I'm concerned about addiction to things like Snapchat, she seems to need that validation from it, and a massive fear of missing something. Other parents seem less bothered by what their kids are doing, e.g., one was posting provocative photos of themselves aged 13, another was contacting boys she didn't know on Snap, aged 12 - parents seemingly oblivious.

I'm worried that the amount of arguments is damaging our relationship, but, I don't want her to just be allowed to do what she wants, when she wants. Anyone out the other side with some ways to navigate through this?

Ughhhh I could have typed this myself except it’s my son and it’s three different sports (baseball, wrestling, American football) and the weightlifting that goes along with them.

It is so very frustrating! No advice, just sympathy.

I found this book good www.amazon.co.uk/How-Talk-Teens-will-Listen/dp/1853408573
It a bit American but the basic ideas are very good and it's easy to read and quite short.

I'm glad she's doing well at school and sounds positive about starting yr10.
You're going to have to compromise on the washing, please don't let her go out or go to school in dirty, crumpled clothes because that's a sign of neglect. I know on Mumsnet many think that children should do their own washing, but she's still a child, and needs to be cared for. Give other low stakes chores.
Phone controls and keeping communication open are key here.

Sounds like a normal teenager. Cut her some slack and pick your battles. Sounds like she needs a lot more downtime.

I would allow the natural consequences by her coach if she has not done the bare minimum of packing her things.

I would also be telling her that if her swimming stops her from putting her uniform in the washing bin which my children started as toddlers, or participating in emptying the dishwasher once or twice a week then she will have to stop the swimming. Remind her that her phone is a privilege and not a right and you will cancel her contract and give her a Nokia brick to be able to make calls but no smartphone. I am assuming you drive her to all of her swim meets too.

I am so tired of this attitude of "typical teenager" and wonder if because we expect teens to eye roll, shout at parents, stomp about the house that we just enable that behaviour. It seems teens are able to behave well in school and with their friends otherwise they wouldn't retain friends and you would be getting phone calls from school over their behaviour. I do have teenagers and neither of them turned out like this because I didn't allow this type of behaviour at home. I never shouted, just calmly discussed things. We had family meetings for people to talk about things making them frustrated or unhappy etc.

I did experience disrespect and told my eldest that no one speaks to me like that, their Dad certainly doesn't. I told Ds that if this was a relationship he would be shown the door. Just because he is my son doesn't mean he gets to treat me this way. It is the same with siblings physically fighting when they are younger, you wouldn't let some random kid hit your child so why do people allow siblings to do it? My sons are 19 and 16, do chores, willingly help with stuff like gardening etc because they understand how much we do for them.

Totally normal for a 14 year old not to want to stack a dishwasher and complain about it. My dd does the same.

I would say your child's life sounds seriously exhausting. Really exhausting and will become much harder once has started her GCSEs if she hasn't already. I would cut back some of the competitions and let her enjoy some downtime and doing things as a family. Being tired all of the time won't help her mood.

I have sat down with my dds and have all agreed what are their jobs, and what are mine. When they have exam weeks or punishing weeks in another way I always give them space to rest - but it can't be used as an excuse when they can't be bothered. It works for a few months and tails off, and I have to kickstart it again, but they do help and must always help as they are part of the family. They are not however doing 14 hour days though....

If you can reframe your dd's time on her phone as connecting with her friends, instead of her friends visiting as we did in the old days, they are nonetheless socialising! Although not in a way we understand. So to some degree in order to remain close to her friends she will need use her phone and be in contact with them.
She sounds lovely, she is not perfect, but no one is - be glad she is working hard at school and at her hobbies and is entitled to a private life too at this age.

My 14 yr old dd is the same with Snapchat so we have a rule in our house that electronics go downstairs at 9pm, on charge and you don't use them. We used to have an app that would simply turn off all apps at a certain time. But she's used to it now so doesn't bother. I do have to remind her each and every day.

As for reminding her all the time, maybe have a chat with her and tell her you do t want to nag her all the time, it's causing issues so things like her sports equipment and washing is now up to her. If the washing isn't in the basket it doesn't get washed, if she's not got her kit ready then she leaves without it. It will be painful to start with and cause more arguments, but it will take a few times if her not having her kit ready or no clothes to wear before she starts to do it herself

she seems to need that validation from it, and a massive fear of missing something.

That's because she's missing out on a lot.

We have always had the 9pm rule too and it works really well. No one has any kind of gadget with them overnight or later than 9pm.

I agree due to the huge amount of time her swimming is taking up, she is probably missing fun times/social events with her friends and they are probably spending far more time together, and maybe she is feeling left out? I would sit down and talk to her about this before it becomes a bigger issue. She needs time to have fun with friends at this age, it is very important.

I have an identical DD - an elite swimmer too (although swap Insta for Snap). There's also a single white ear bud permanently attached to her head! I struggle with the mess - she is seemingly incapable of tidying anything away.

We have parental controls on her phone and laptop. She gets a basic amount of time, but extra time is not granted until chores and homework are done, and it switches off at 9pm. It helps to reduce the arguments. She begrudgingly sees that some of her friends have too much freedom. Doesn't stop her from wanting it #FOMO.

One thing to remember is the swim training time is socialising, it's just not with parents. Once mine is in the car she's on the phone unwinding again, and then it's eat and sleep.

No advice, but I think it's pretty normal behaviour for a young teenager, and I'm hoping we come out the others otherside soon.

Absolutely my first thought .

She's probably knackered and needs time to just ' be' not come home and start chores .

I have DDs a similar age who also are top set at school and do a lot of sport. I think you really need to pick your battles and frankly I CBA arguing about chores. I know the things they enjoy doing (e.g.DD1 loves putting the shopping away, DD2 loves cooking) so I ask for help with those jobs and ask them randomly to help with other things which they sometimes approach enthusiastically and sometimes do a half arsed job. Eventually everything will be done properly as they get older but at this age it's more important to keep the communication channels open than having them being obedient and doing everything I say. I don't expect DH to do everything I tell him to do either, growing up and being an adult is about having some agency over doing the boring stuff.

We have no phones after 10pm during the week, no phones at meal times, and hide the phones in the morning at weekends so they have some phone free time (they are both OK with this and do I let them have them if they are arranging to go out with their friends so they don't miss out). We encourage them to monitor app useage and set their own limits for that and have had chats about bullying on the phone and how to deal with it and how not to do it.

I have a 14yo DD who does a lot of sport outside school. Here are my thoughts: I agree with the above posters about natural consequences. If she doesn't get her kit ready or put her uniform in the wash, it doesn't get done!

On top of that, I think a few clearly specified chores can work well. So rather than asking her to load the dishwasher just when she was looking forward to FaceTiming her friend, have a rule that she always loads it on Mondays and Wednesdays (or whatever). Link it to pocket money or privileges if you like.

Re phone use, my main rules are that the phone does not appear at mealtimes and she goes to sleep at a sensible time. Otherwise she's on it a lot! But I used to spend hours on the phone to my best friend at this age (back then it was a landline obviously) so I think that's normal.

Re books, I like Lisa Damour's Untangled. One of the things she says is that teens who have good supportive friendships and relationships in real life also tend to use their phone sensibly, because they don't need to use their online presence to replace the real thing. This made me feel a bit more relaxed about trusting my own teen (who has lovely friends and has never to my knowledge done anything silly on social media), although of course we still need to keep an eye on them.

Good luck OP!

I agree, @JaninaDuszejko . Very good advice. That was our approach, and our children are adults now, well adjusted and we're still all friends! It doesn't work to be too inflexible.

reach It is not socialising with her actual friends though is it, training is not the same as teen socialising at all. No doubt the other girls will be going out for bubble tea, shopping together, watching films, going to the beach or having a BBQ and sleepovers and parties. They will be sharing many memories together and bonding that your dd will not be a part of. Which is why she is experiencing FOMO. Your dds are missing out on a lot if they are training all week and have competitions all weekend, and have no time to join in and have fun.

When do they have time to decompress and see friends? Have fun?

It sounds like an utter slog at 14 with the relentless pressure of school work as well. Unless they are truly at national level then rather pointless too as they most likely to stop once they go to university.

Some feedback:

• do you ask the same thing of your son?
• you sound a bit stressed/anxious yourself and way too involved...Do you have other interests in your life (work/hobbies) or are just always focussed on your kids.

Your kid is doing well at school and has some outside interests. All very positive.

You can't police every minute of her life and you should give her some free time and a bit of trust without your scrutinising everything she does.

To me it just sounds like a usual teenager and you are blowing things out of proportions.

Do you do nice things with her? Have good conversations/debates without pointing out what she needs to do? I had to look at myself when my daughter was a teenager-even now at 23 she says I can’t help the lecture. I agree with previous people who said to let her fail-maybe suggest to her she runs her own life with washing etc. she then needs to deal with the effect of not doing it. Take a step back. Phones are a nuisance - but I remember my parents nagging because I was constantly reading or out with friends. You do come through the other side-I had issues with shoplifting, bombing out for A levels etc-but now have delightful 23 yr old. My take is don’t obsess with phones and see if she can organise her life without you stepping in.

Sounds normal.
You can choose your interactions with her.
If you want it all to be 'do this, don't do this' then that's your choice.
I choose to leave my daughter to learn from natural consequences about packing stuff and washing uniforms. It isn't dangerous to leave her to it, with a dirty uniform once (the only time it will happen, I imagine!)
I also choose not to bother enforcing chores if my kids have a really heavy week. I actually work less hours than they do (homework/school/part time job). Again, that's my choice.
I choose to spend my time with them in different ways.

I made the mistake of nagging endlessly when one of mine couldn't be bothered to bring her laundry downstairs, but one day I just stopped doing any washing that wasn't downstairs by the wm on a Friday evening, and she still didn't do it, so she washes her own clothes now instead. Make it her decision if she wants her clothes washed for her or not.

I think you are right to worry about Snapchat tbh! If other parents aren't bothered that's down to them. But if you want to spot check/ monitor it then go ahead and don't be apologetic about it. You are paying the phone bill.

With the phone we had daily time trackers which they had to show us randomly and keep at a reasonable level during term time (you need to decide as a family what you think is a reasonable number of hours a day). If they still wanted a phone contract they had to comply with the "reasonable" hours we all set. We adjusted the hours as they got older and weren't too ruthless about it as it's better if they learn to self regulate. (Keep in mind that teens use phones to maintain friendships, listen to music, as dictionaries & calculators, as alarm clocks (although we had the usual kind!) and calendars, to play games, when my generation had all of those items in stand alone form.) On school/work nights the phones went in phone lock boxes from Amazon and were left downstairs overnight (and that applied to whole family). Different now they are over eighteen obviously!

For weekly chores, I eased off over exam periods but for the rest of the time, we expected them both to empty the dw when they came in from school while having their snack and walk and feed the dogs in the evening on a rota three days a week each, and join in family bed making on a Sunday. Not a lot of chores. Again, don't get drawn in to arguments. If they don't do them, they don't get the earned part of their allowance. We made half of their allowance not contingent on chores and half earned. Again, no arguments, make it their decision if they want the earned half.

As for general backchat and hating everything and being rude to you, I would honestly say, step back, walk away, don't engage and do not let arguments get in the way of your relationship. I made the mistake of getting in to a negative spiral of disagreements with one of mine and it doesn't help anything. Half the time they don't realise they are being rude and you have to wait until their frontal cortex joins up with their limbic system (at about 24 years of age) for them to get full self awareness. It's good to use humour to defuse tense situations.

Ultimately, it's the quality of their relationship with you, and your closeness, which will largely determine whether they go completely off the rails or not when they are older and you no longer have the same control over them. And your relationship is the most important thing for their self esteem above everything else. Above all, they need to feel that they are loved for themselves unconditionally even when they are being brattish. Actually when they are being the most brattish is probably when they need love the most.

Tell her often that you love her as the teen default mode seems to be to think everyone is against them. And show her you love her in small practical ways like picking up her favourite snack, taking her out for a 'grownup' coffee or lunch, going to the cinema together etc.

So basically treat her like you would a grown up version of a toddler; eg engage with the good and ignore the bad. Physically leave the room if you have to. I have left the house on occasion! Keep the lines of communication going and let it know you are available at any time if they want to talk or have a problem or need help, but make it clear you will not engage with them while they speak to you like rubbish. Always keep calm and give yourself time to think. Don't be pressured in to making decisions quickly about a party or an overnight stay. Tell them you will "think about it and get back to them". If it gets really bad, just calmly tell them that you won't be spoken to like that and withdraw.

I always take bolshiness and "superiority" as an indication that they are ready for more responsibility (a bit like when an infant outgrows their high chair and starts protesting and arching their back it's an indication it's time to sit at the table in a proper chair). So try giving your dd some tasks that stretch her a bit, make her a bit uncertain, involving a journey or a "mission" of some kind, where she has to solve a problem outside of her comfort zone. The DofE award scheme is good for that. Encourages a bit of humility and appreciation and an awareness that they don't know everything yet! If your DD is competitive, give her a challenge.

Read 'Untangled' by Lisa Damour which is often recommended here on the teen girl threads. Your daughter's behaviour is telling you something. She is starting to split herself off from you in order to become a fully formed adult in her own right. This is a normal process but it's hard on them and on us.

Go with the process and step back a bit and don't get involved in the minutiae whole supporting from the sidelines. Be busy with your own life and projects. Model common sense, cheerfulness, self care, resolving problems in a calm reasonable way, model enjoying yourself and getting the balance of hard work and leisure right. She may not be talking to you but she will be watching.

Get some support for yourself if you need it. Don't allow yourself (as I did) to be mentally worn down by the emotional ups and downs of your teen. Step back a bit. They need you to be solid and strong while they are all over the place!

Start each day afresh. Don't let arguments run over in to the next day or spoil a birthday or outing or holiday. Refresh and start again.

And just hang in there! It can be a bit hellish but she will come out the other side I promise! (Both of mine are starting to "come back" now although we still have our moments!) Good luck and sorry for the long essay! Thanks to one of mine being "quite challenging" this is my specialist subject ATM. And I made a hell of a lot of mistakes I wish I hadn't first time around.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and replies, especially those with kids who also do a lot of sport - it's reassuring to know I'm not alone, and I think it's difficult for parents of kids who don't do as much to understand it's the kids choice to participate and that they enjoy it.

Describing it as gruelling and exhausting is your perception because you wouldn't want to do that; if I told my daughter she needs to give up her sport because it's too tiring she'd be heartbroken and angry, she has actual friends from it and does see it as social time too.

I never ask her to do any chores when she gets home, just unloading the dishwasher a couple of times a week before school, which I didn't think was unreasonable, but maybe I'll stop asking her to avoid that row.

I think this behaviour is fairly common in teens, regardless of whether they are involved in an activity that takes up a lot of their time out of school. They don't like being told what to do - their instincts make them want to rebel - it's all part of the process of detaching from parents and becoming independent grown ups (eventually).

Use phone controls and things like money, lifts etc to get the chores done. So, I'll give you a lift but make sure x is done first. Much easier and less stressful than constant nagging. Remember they don't care if the dishwasher is empty or the bathroom is clean. Only whether their favourite clothes are available to be worn or food is in the cupboard.

Maybe you are underestimating the academic demands op.
Children that are very sporty - I have one - need some guidance and help to slow down and manage their time/energy levels. They will always want to do more, but as parents the onus is on to make sure she is getting enough rest and downtime.

If she can't stack a dishwasher in the morning, I would suggest she is already doing way too much. It is not an unreasonable request, but given her schedule she may be too exhausted in the morning to do it.
I think of those moments as warning lights on the dashboard
Burning out just before her GCSEs is not ideal - trust me.

Swimming is not a career for life - so I would refocus on her school work anyway.
She will need good enough grades to a do a degree even if she wants to be a sports teacher etc.

Massive sympathy from me as I'm going through hell with my DD13 almost 14.

But if my DD was enjoying/training for a sport and showing great commitment to that and at the same time keeping up with her school work I'd take that as a massive win.

They are all obsessed with their phones. My battle at the moment is taking it off of her at 9:30pm so that she gets to bed at a decent time. If we let her keep her phone she will be up at midnight. I don't allow Snapchat but insta seems to be the main messaging system they use at her school.

Yesterday morning I told her she could only have her phone back once she had got up, had breakfast , showered , dressed , tidied and cleaned her room ( for the first time in months!) and done the daily half term homework tasks on her school iPad ( tasks take 45 mins max)

She only managed all of that by 5pm because she was being so deliberately lazy and trying to prove taking her phone away won't make a difference.

I'd be much more laid back if she was achieving as much with her time as your DD is.

I hope things get better for you as mine and DDs relationship is in tatters right now and I wouldn't wish this on anyone.

Also I've been though the empty the dishwasher arguments with my DS at that age too. In the end I could see the arguments were destroying our relationship. I gave up and decided that all that really mattered was that his mental health , keeping up with school work, not rude to us , and having an active social life ( for the sake of his good mental health)

He is now 16 and an absolute delight to have around , doing well at school and keeping up a paper round and a weekend job but would still rather die than have to unload the dishwasher!