Fed up of constant power struggle and bickering?

[mummyrocks1]

How do DH and I solve this? We seen to never see eye to eye on anything and I feel very worn down by it all. I find him petty, immature and lazy.

Our arguments are so petty its ridiculous but he can't seem to stop or help himself. Egs we have a rare night out. I drive and he needs to give a running commentary on my driving, I am too close, watch out, shouldn't have changed lane etc. why did I park there, I should park there, too far away etc. I admit I argue back all it becomes a petty argument. But I have asked him a million times to just shut up about it. He might not agree with my driving but just keep quiet. He can't so in the end I get angry and ask him if that was worth it ruining our night out over it? By the time we are there I feel any time we spend together we argue and don't want to spend time with him.

Today I thought I must try and be more chilled and not answer back. So over dinner I say to dc we need to look online for some simmer shorts for a 4 week holiday we have coming up. I don't think the 3/4 pairs is enough. DH interrupted saying he does think it's enough. I didn't answer trying to not retaliate. He raises his voice looking at me and says yes! I gently disagree. He shouts that he's got enough shorts, his opinion doesn't count etc. I say is this really worth arguing about in front of the dcs? I sort everything to do with the dcs and think he's wrong. He continues to argue.

This is the kind of arguments we have everyday. I am tired of it and don't want this for the next 40 years, we are early 40s. I know it's ultimately not about the shorts it's because he feels I take over all decisions, I don't follow what he wants. I don't think this is the case. The trouble is when you disagree on so much down to how many bloody pairs of shorts dc has then someone's point of view has to be followed. It's so exhausting. I don't see how we can solve this but I ve had enough.

At the very least they are witnessing 2 unhappy people bickering.

Do you think kids don't see what's happening right in front of them?

At worst they are witnessing abuse. You are scared of continuing down the road you are on incase you see your marriage in a different light. I can promise, by their teens (maybe before) they will see your marriage in exactly that light. They will think its normal for a relationship and possibly end up in similar relationships.

They certainly won't have many fond memories of you and your husband together.

Christ. I am shaking. I didn't think it was abusive. He's only really raised his voice and shouted aggressively once. That was recently. Otherwise it's just bickering. He does say passive aggressive and inappropriate things in front of them though about me.

Once in front of the dcs that is. His behaviour to me has escalated.

Should she not have told me that after one 1-1 sesssion? Are counsellors not meant to say that? I feel she realised she made a mistake.
Her words were. That is gaslighting, that is domestic abusive. Then she said, I am not saying he is abusive but that is that behaviour. Then she said you are exposing the kids to it. Then I said you haven't heard his side, I am sure he will say things. She agreed but said normally one partner is more dominate but it doesn't seem to be me from what she's getting.

Should she have said this?

Sorting if I am not making sense. I think I am panicking. I am shaking.

OP, honestly, you sound so much like my SIL. Right down to the family dynamic (I believe PIL have a LOT to answer for in terms of setting SIL up to be in an abusive marriage).

The problem is that even if you're not perfect - and you probably aren't - that doesn't excuse things. In the perfect world, at some point, you'd calmly sit down and say something like, 'right, let's agree a sensible split in responsibilities."

But that won't work. Because even if he agrees to something, he'll not do it and then tell you that he didn't agree (gaslighting). Or he'll complain he only agreed because you forced him to. And you'll go back to being the bad guy.

I think the only answer is if he is threatening divorce or whatever is to take him up on it.

But I'm willing to put money on it that he'll backtrack at that point. And that getting him out is going to be really really hard. I'm sorry you're going through this.

Op, I was going to suggest a book, Patricia Evans, the verbally abusive relationship. It helped me understand the dynamics of arguments.

In a healthy relationship partners negotiate the decisions that need to be made, often along the traditional male & female roles but not exclusively. Over time a couple work out each others strengths or weaknesses and because there is respect a natural consensus is reached. He might make more of the meals suggestions as better as cooking but you handle the finances as have more interest in that area. There is genuine playing to each other strengths so that there is a true partnership.

However in a toxic relationship each decision is seen as win/lose, usually by the toxic partner...so this isn't about shorts (as you say) it's about him feeling you win. In his head he is counting score of who is more in control. If you win one debate he will double down to win the next...it's why it gets worse over time.

Ex had the concept (from his abusive childhood) of control or be controlled. When children come along is usually ramps up as they have to win control of the children. I only found out much later than Ex would take the dc aside and say "sorry for how your mum is acting". Had we stayed together I may have been alienated from my children.

Thankfully I left and we have a great relationship. Ex's desire to control is much more obvious from a distance.

It is very rare for people to change. Even with extensive counseling, Ex went but was not honest about his behaviour so it was it expensive indulgence.

We went to couples counseling and he walked out when gently challenged by the counsellor.

If you decide to leave, please plan in secret. Don't assume he will be amicable as those with control issues often become very vindictive when they realise you are leaving.

OP,
I can well imagine having it spelled out to you is shocking.

But your children will be equally ground down by it too.

I too believe your relationship is utterly doomed and VERY carefully planning a SAFE exit is wise.

Speaking to Women's aid and friends that will support you, would be wise.

My ex was like this. I once tried agreeing with him about everything. In your short scenario, I said things like 'oh ok, if you're happy with that amount it'll be fine' I was nice, not passive aggressive. What happened was he'd start an argument about something else, keep picking and picking at me until I disagreed, then he'd blame me. This showed me it was about power. Not that I didn't include him in decisions, or controlling him. It was about him controlling me, bullying me and belittling me and my opinions.

Oh, OP. Your shock and panic are palpable

If I had to guess, I would say that the therapist probably didn't want to label him as abusive for a few reasons; firstly she doesn't know enough about him and the relationship yet, secondly I think it is always better to label the behaviour rather than the person - if that makes sense? So in parenting we would tell a child that their behaviour is naughty not that the child himself is naughty.

She might have got a sense that it is overwhelming for you to be told that your husband is abusive (in general) and that it might be a bit less overwhelming if she helps you to identify specific behaviour of his that's abusive, which might eventually lead you to notice a pattern of abusive behaviour and conclude that he is in fact abusive (and not just someone who is stressed or messes up sometimes).

It probably feels awful right now but it is actually a good thing that she has identified the abuse. She might say that she is no longer able to offer joint therapy to you as a couple and might recommend individual therapy instead. That is what most of us would recommend, as couple's counselling is really not helpful when there is abuse in a relationship.

Be kind to yourself. And when you have the time and head space, read "Why does he do that?" by Lundy Bancroft.

I will also point out that therapists have a safeguarding responsibility so if she thinks that your children are at risk of harm she has to tell you that and encourage you to take action to protect them. I am not sure how serious the risk of harm has to be before she would report anything. This would probably be something to discuss with her (alone, obviously not with him present).

But maybe she IS always right?

Honestly, nobody is always right. Not the op, not her husband, not the therapist.

Op, I have been in your shoes. Constant bickering over meaningless subjects that left me confused. Him saying that I was always blaming him. Shouting that I don't listen ( which is why he's shouting). I am you.

Its not your fault. He is controlling you by manipulation. He is using the children against you. Deliberately.

I had my lightbulb moment last Christmas and my health imploded. I am slowly fighting my way back so I can start divorce this Christmas. He won't change..

Atm I stop the bickering by saying "Stop. I don't want to argue, esp over this" he replies "I'm not arguing" I reply "just stop" and I walk away for 5 minutes. It seems to be working. He still tries but it mostly seems to stop the first time I say the word stop.

Sorry you felt the need to type out a sarcastic reply to my post.

educate yourself on the effects of domestic abuse on kids. No matter if it’s never ‘in front of them’. I have ptsd and lifelong health problems from my mother inflicting her toxic sham of a marriage on me as a kid. That’s why your shit husband is of no concern to me, and why the thread should not be based on him.

No need for any more sarky replies.

No need for your horrible reply when someone is in a bad situation, literally crying and shaking wanting some support and that's your post. Read your post back and imagine yourself reading that in my situation. Imagine you said that to your daughter/friend/whoever who had just told you their situation. Have some empathy.

If you can't be supportive please don't post.

OP - I think that therapists will often focus on behaviour rather than labelling a person. So it's not odd that she is referring to abusive behaviour but is unwilling to specifically label him as abusive.

You've clearly got a lot to unpick here. It won't happen overnight. But keep going with the therapy and the thinking and the reading.

Thanks. She's only heard my side. H is yet to have his 1-1. I wonder if that will change her mind.

Do you think she would directly say to him in our couple sessions the behaviour is gaslighting/abusive? I think he needs to hear it from someone else. He doesn't acknowledge it.

I worry from their 1-1 he will persuade her it's all me. He's different to me. People take to him, he knows how to get people on side, give them what they want, he understands people. We see the same argument so differently like we have seen two different things. I worry he will persuade her to into supporting him.

H wanted us to go to marriage counseling, but only to fix my warped views, he told me that. He just saw it as another way to get at me.

I am not managing well today. Holding back tears for the dcs on the school run, cried when back to the car. My heads all over the place about splitting up. My Ds wouldn't cope, we think he has ADHD.

I am thinking about telling my sister. But I worry she will judge. I was seen as the difficult one in our family. H is loved my everyone, people just take to him. He gets people. Except me.

mummyrocks1, take some time to process your feelings and thoughts.

Speak to a good friend, if you feel they would be supportive, rather than family.

Use this forum if it helps - if you are at the stage of separating then there are lots of strands to process, including emotions and practicalities

Btw, Ex h was also the good guy but he maintained his image externally, with me he was very different. I found it difficult to explain to family (one sibling got it as she witnesses his flash of anger). A therapist who had experience of personality disorders made me aware of covert of vulnerable narcissism and this helped me understand what I was dealing with.

Don't rush anything as you need to let the emotions settle so that you can think through solutions, which could include separating. However I think most women want to try a few strategies, including counselling before finally throwing in the towel.

Life’s too short OP for living with someone who is a bickering meanie (even if they can’t help themselves). The effect on you and your children is to gradually grind you down into an emotional mess and if you stand up for yourself you will end up a supposed ‘screaming harpie’.

Life is short. The world can be a tough place (my experience). We don’t need anger and continuous conflict in our homes. I know you’re going “through it”now, but its temporary as things come to a head. Just be kind as you can to yourself now. I am sure you will find some peace soon.

PS if the parents just simply don’t get on - and it seems clear that you don’t eg the constant arguing and inability to agree on anything - then it’s definitely better if they live separately IMO.

DC siding with him means nothing. I was once standing between H and our DC because he was angry and shouting about something they'd supposedly done and when I very quietly told him what had really happened he started shouting at me instead, "don't you take that tone with me, don't you yell at me," and DC said "mummy why are you yelling at Daddy?". I wasn't yelling, I was too worried to yell, but I wasn't going to say nothing and let him go on shouting at our DC. I've always taken on the blame for everything wrong in our relationship, always convinced it's my fault.

OP, I hope your therapist is well trained enough to spot the lies and gaslighting and certainly her initial reaction to you is a sign that she has a good idea of wha is going on.

I think whatever happens you need to carry on with therapy and you need to unpick issues with your family. The fact that you think your family would take his side is a sign that you probably have all kinds of unresolved issues from childhood. Again, with SIL it's a similar pattern - one of the reasons she's struggled to disentangle herself from BIL is because she's spent 40 years being told SHE is the difficult one. And even when BIL's behaviour was appalling, her family had a tendency to not notice because, for example, she would shout and yell and that immediately put her into the "baddy" camp. It took me pointing out a few home truths about their double standards in terms of expectations of her vs expectations of him before they could even begin to see what was really happening.

"See? Nobody likes you, everyone thinks you're crazy and I'm an angel for putting up with it" sort of thing.

This, from @pixie5121 is pretty much word for word the kind of stuff BIL would say. Or, his other version was to say to her family (not me, he figured out pretty quickly I wasn't going to be sympathetic), "I try so hard and I love her so much but she makes everything so difficult." And they'd all agree....

I'd suggest talking to your friends. You might be surprised how many have sussed his behaviour and haven't felt able to discuss with you.