Kick him out or keep trying?

[cyclingmum21]

Been married for 13 years, together for 20. Have 2 kids, 15 & 16. Husband has been very grumpy and angry for no reason for last couple of years. Yesterday he told me to "F off and die." I asked him if he meant it and he said his life would be easier if I was dead. He has said he doesn't think he loves me anymore. He said we can just carry on living in the same house but separately for the sake of the kids.
Do I kick him out? What if he doesn't leave?

Get your legal advice and then tell him
there's the door, since he's so miserable and told you to foad.

Taking that space could be very helpful to you.

Got legal advice. Apparently I can ask him to leave but I can't force him to. And if he refuses to leave there's nothing I can do about it. Solicitor suggested that I ask him to go stay somewhere else to give us both some space. This sounds like a good idea but he could come back at anytime.

I really don't know what to do. I don't want to be with someone who speaks to me like that and I don't know if I can ever forgive him but I don't know it I'm ready to give up all hope.

Don’t get bogged down in your sunk costs. Make the break because it takes two to make a relationship work and he is patently not interested in doing so.

How can you forgive someone who's not sorry?

don't want my kids to be without a dad
But apparently, your kids being without a mum - not even a mum they would see occasionally, but a mum who has died - that's what he wants. That would make him happy.

Let that really sink in, OP. He would cheerfully wish his children the terrible pain of losing a parent, because it would make his life "easier".

Ask him to leave for a bit, at least it will give you some respite from dealing with his awful behaviour. Then get the ball rolling on divorce. He might choose to be difficult and try to live in the house until it's sold, but if you make sure you're not doing anything to facilitate his life - no cooking, laundry, admin for him - he might decide his life would be "easier" at his mums.

So he wants you to change but he won’t? I think I’d be making moves to get out of the relationship. Can’t be good for the dc seeing this.

@cyclingmum21

Got legal advice. Apparently I can ask him to leave but I can't force him to. And if he refuses to leave there's nothing I can do about it. Solicitor suggested that I ask him to go stay somewhere else to give us both some space. This sounds like a good idea but he could come back at anytime.

I really don't know what to do. I don't want to be with someone who speaks to me like that and I don't know if I can ever forgive him but I don't know it I'm ready to give up all hope.

What was the advice on if you divorce? Or did you only ask about making him leave the house?

What were your actual questions?

Because that sounds like the advice of someone who thinks you've had a bit of a tiff and are just trying to punish him, rather than end the relationship.

How did you find this solicitor in the end? What's their experience and expertise in?

I don't know it I'm ready to give up all hope

You mean you're scared and sad to face it? Because there is no hope (other than perhaps false hope you're creating internally) - he's already explicitly told you that.

He's not sorry, he has no intention of changing, and he's blaming you for his behaviour.

Genuinely, what would you be hoping for? Surely it's denial not hope you're holding onto?

Whether or not you "forgive" someone who's continuing to treat you like shit is somewhat irrelevant, no? It's going to keep happening regardless of how you feel.

Very experienced divorce solicitor who talked through everything. You're probably right that it's denial rather than hope.
And yes sad and scared too. Not scared to be on my own, more about how it affect the kids and all the stress of sorting everything out.

Those are understandable emotions - we all feel like that when something changes. They are temporary though, they wouldn't last forever.

You would only be sorting everything out one thing at a time - not all at once like you are contemplating all of it together now.

It will be manageable taken one step at a time and probably no more stressful than the situation you are already in.

As for your kids, yes they may have initial tough emotions just like you, but you will communicate clearly with them and support them as you always have - and they will be fine. They are 15 and 16, they will adjust fine.

It is a change to adjust to like moving house or moving school, it is not the end of human civilisation. Keep it in perspective when you feel overwhelmed.

The kids will be fine. So many people divorce these days so they're not going to feel like they're the only ones.
They'd rather be in a stable home without the tension and moodiness.
Being supportive and a rock to your children makes a difference.

If you feel you want to start the process, you can, and you can always stop it at any point if you want to later on.

He said we can just carry on living in the same house but separately for the sake of the kids.

Well isn't he the big man.
It hasn't even occurred to him that this is not his decision. Now he's said these awful things to you, it's up to you what happens next.

btw "for the sake of the kids" is self-serving bullshit.
What he means is he doesn't want the expense & upheaval of moving, or he wants you to continue as maid of all work (surprise us - he's an enlightened soul who does 50% of the household drudgery without even being asked?! - no, thought not), or he doesn't want to maintain a separate household he'd need to parent his kids solo in.

Why should you have to endure living with someone who speaks to you so foully?
What is your housing situation, & can you afford to put a new roof over you & DC's heads, or take over sole responsibility for this one?

@cyclingmum21

So tonight he asked if we could talk. He said he wanted things to be better, like they used to be. I asked him what his plan was to make things better. He said if I am more affectionate, happier and argue less about the small things. I stopped him and asked him what he was going to do to make things better. I didn't get an answer. No apology for what he said, no remorse, no sign that things are going to be different

What he wants is for him to continue exactly as he pleases, & for you to give him no push-back.

He's been a grumpy twat to you for 2 years, he has now said unforgivably hurtful things to you, doesn't see the need to apologise, & reckons you should just suck it up.

You don't have to tolerate this OP.
You can create a happier home for you & the DC.

He's not sorry, he has no intention of changing, and he's blaming you for his behaviour.
Exactly this. he told you to fuck off & die, & is now ordering you to be happier about it.

You say you are scared about the impact of divorce on the DC.
Stop it.
Them living with the toxic shit & toxic attitude their father gives off is far, far worse for them than their folks splitting up. They know more than you think, & it's already affecting them.
Take charge, & begin the process of divorcing your abusive H.
There is nothing to "come back" from. He expects to dish out whatever awful words he wants at you, & have you be "happier" about it & not make a fuss about "small things" - like being told to fuck off & die?

He's just told you that he expects to continue abusing you, & that you should lie down & keep taking it. With a happy face on.

Sorry, the kids will have noticed the atmosphere.
I couldn't live with someone who spoke to me like that.

He's backtracking because he has realised what he said massively crossed the line and you're on the verge of kicking him out. That's all it is.

If you can't force him to leave but you can tell him is over and divorce him. This will involve the house being sold. Then you move on afresh just you and DC. You don't have t stay living with him forever. You shouldn't. Forgiving him wouldn't be healthy it would be making yourself a doormat and letting him know it's ok to verbally abuse you.

You're not responsible for his happiness. Bet you'd be a whole lot happier if you weren't living with a grumpy angry man. He's the cause of your unhappiness yet it's for you to fix the problem by acting happier? Bet you'd be more affectionate if he wasn't treating you like shit! He doesn't get to be grumpy and angry for no reason then expect affection from you. I'll bet by "affection" he means "sex" anyway. The way he's treating you, he doesn't even like you! But yeh, you're there, so he'll have sex with you 🙄 . Far easier for him than splitting up and looking for a new partner. As for arguing less about the small things, who says they're small, him? Maybe they're big things to you. Is it things like him pulling his weight with house chores and treating you with respect?

He'll be off as soon as the youngest turns 18. Someone who puts up and shuts up, has sex with him when he wants, doesn't answer back no matter what disrespectful crap he comes out with, keeps house and runs round after him, no child maintenance for him to pay and no solo parenting for him. Yeh of course he wants to stay, suits him just fine for now.

Kick him out.

Thanks for all the messages. Considering none of you know him, you have described him so well which makes me think that his abusive behaviour is not unique.
For the last few weeks he has done nothing around the house. Today he has clearly decided to make an effort by doing some chores.
Last weekend he took the key for his car off me and told me I can't use it anymore and today he said I could use his car if I wanted. Feel like he's messing with my head.

We would have to sell the house. I can't afford it on my own. That doesn't bother me.

Making that final decision is the tough bit.

Feel like he's messing with my head.

Because he is. It's deliberate. He's gone too far and now he's trying to pacify you. He's gone on his best behaviour until you decide you love him again, then he'll go back to being shit, until you're on the verge of leaving him again then the good behaviour makes a reappearance. Every time he goes back to being shit, it'll be a little worse than the last time as he pushes the boundaries of what you'll tolerate. So you learn to tolerate more and more as time goes on. It's the cycle of abuse and there's nothing unique about it.

Considering none of you know him, you have described him so well which makes me think that his abusive behaviour is not unique.

Good insight OP.
Abusive behaviour follows a clearly observable pattern - so much so that experts working in the field, & survivors who have wised up to it, refer to it as "The Script."
You can learn about it here, this book is kinda a bible round these parts ;) - www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

See @WildPoinsettia's post - he is using the 'Idealise / Devalue / Discard' cycle of abuse, & his housework & car-permission is part of that cycle.

The final decision is tough, but it is only one of a series of steps you will be taking as you manoeuvre yourself & DC out of the hellish situation of having to live with him. Viewed from here, it feels like a mammoth task: but keep purposefully thinking of how a new life will feel, keep posting here, & you will find that one small step at a time eventually gets you to where you need & deserve to be - free of abuse.

you have described him so well which makes me think that his abusive behaviour is not unique

Yes. A lot of women who go on the Freedom Programme course express shock that a book and course has basically been written describing their partner.

Feel like he's messing with my head

Also spot on. Also textbook abusive behaviour. The only thing he is making an effort with is to control you, which is what abuse is about.

Making that final decision is the tough bit.

It is tough and it brings tough emotions.

But you are in control of it and when you are ready to make that decision you are also tough enough to survive it.

We had another talk. I asked him where we go from here. He suggested taking a break but staying in same house. I explained to him that won't work as I need space to think and get some clarity. He agreed that he also feels anxious when either of us walks in the room. He still thinks there's nothing wrong with him. He compared his outburst (telling me to F off or die) as the same as me saying he was insular. He agreed I did nothing wrong to warrant his outburst but says everyone loses it now and then. He tried to make it sound like we have both been equally bad. Eventually I asked him to consider going somewhere else for a while to give us both some space. He said he's worried he'll like it on his own and not want to come back. He wants me to tell the kids I've told him to go. I said that was ok as I know the kids will understand. I mentioned him saying he doesn't know if he loves me anymore. He said he doesn't love me as much as he used to.
Now to wait and see if he does anything about it.

He's attempting to manipulate you. This in particular was fairly predictable:

He said he's worried he'll like it on his own and not want to come back. He wants me to tell the kids I've told him to go.

I think your response to that was good. Takes all the power away from him. Just be careful to draw a line between acknowledging you asked him to leave (very reasonable) and taking the blame for the whole situation because that's not true.

What is your plan if/when he does nothing? He doesn't sound like he plans to, he's working you and trying to get you to back down and beg him to stay.

I don't have a plan if he does nothing. I could ask a close friend to talk to him. Other than that, I don't know.

He's saying he has nowhere to go. He's spoken to his step mum but didn't ask if he could stay there. He says she would have offered if it was an option. He's saying I could go instead of him renting somewhere as it will cost a lot of money. I can't bear the thought of leaving the kids even if it is only temporary. What do I do??

Don't go.

Suggest he find an air b&b or short term rental somewhere, to test things out. He may then be more inclined to find someone to stay with. Maybe there's a friend or colleague who would like a short term lodger.

Get the house valued and look at your mutual finances to see what the situation is. What would two small places cost, for example.

See if there is a sensible, fair way to proceed.