Dating confusion!

[RoseSays]

I'm OLD - just very slowly as I've been married before and prefer being single!

I'd like some advice / insight if that's ok?

The last couple of guys I've been on a couple of dates with both called me 'independent'.

Now that's actually exactly how I would describe myself, and proudly so, but I got the impression they thought it was a negative?

I'm dating white collar, metropolitan type guys, mid - 40s, divorced with children.

I had been married for a long time, but no children. I do not spend my time solo-kayaking across the Atlantic, I work, eat, sleep, repeat like everyone else I know.

I've taken a step back and allowed them to pay for most of the dates (they earn more than me) but I offer and I'm more than happy to go Dutch/me pay.
I drive myself to the dates because often they are half-way plus I don't want to drink too much, or give them my address (I've only been on a couple of dates with each of them).

I don't think they are potentially abusive guys, I do hope I know by now the rest flags.

The first guy finished with me (he wasn't feeling it - I was secretly really really gutted) but it's only now I'm dating the next guy and he's said the same thing which is why I'm wondering as especially we've only spend a brief amount of time together.

I dress fashionably rather than sexily, but I'm very 'feminine' looking and 'pretty' so I do try and balance that out by not showing flesh or figure hugging clothes. I don't know why I feel this is important to state - but there it is. Both guys fancied me, so I don't think they mean that independent = unfeminine.

I wonder if they mean emotionally unavailable?

I had one man tell me an independent woman would be quick to walk away or break up over something minor because the woman doesn't "need" the man enough in order to stay and try to work things out (or tolerate bad behavior on his part).

I don't need a man in any way shape or form, but have noticed when I do "need" a man for physical protection, workplace related protection, advice, help, guidance or anything totally non-romantic related, I notice these men perk up and are feeling very good about themselves. I would imagine that carries over with dating.

"I don't need a man in any way shape or form, but have noticed when I do "need" a man for physical protection, workplace related protection, advice, help, guidance or anything totally non-romantic related, I notice these men perk up and are feeling very good about themselves. I would imagine that carries over with dating."

Yes, I've noticed this at work, they are not impressed with my wit or intelligent(ish) conversation - but when I need some help or ask advice they are all over me!

@Otterhound

Old can be brutal. Thing is there are mountains of shit men on old so the ones that are better than average looking, can write a decent profile, don't sent dick picks or try to get into your knickers after the 1st text and who are generally easy to converse with are going to get a lot of interest.

Which means they might just have met someone they had more chemistry with.

You can only be yourself and hope you meet someone who likes you as much as you like them. This might take a little time!

He was a 'catch' - which is why I'm so gutted, he's the most interesting guy I've met in a couple of years of on-off Covid times dating 🤪

He deleted the app after our second date which made me but re-joined a couple of weeks after breaking it off with me. I don't think he's a player type - but yes it's definitely possible.

Just wish I could forget about him and give this next guy a fair chance

A certain type of man likes women to be a bit uncertain, a bit confused and vulnerable.
They can then be the smart one, and be in control. Albeit (possibly) subconsciously.

Then there's a certain type of man who is secure in himself who will love what you have to offer, can follow (if you are smarter in certain areas) and lead if he is.

I use smart here as a catch all for wise/savvy/quality traits.

You say they are not abusers, probably they are not, but it's the low end of that scale. Still seeking dominance.

I think you just haven't been well matched.
Ideally, I'm independent + you are independent and in time we can depend on each other for certain things at certain times.

I'm a man and agree with a few other posters who have said it may come down to their own insecurity.

If I meet a woman who is very independent and seems to have everything together I'd question what I could bring to her life. I'd find it laughable if someone suggested that the woman in question might think my genuine self would be a bonus in her life. Due to this I would be looking at tangible benefits I could bring (finances, wisdom, mentor role, connections etc) and if there wasn't any to be found I'd pull back

@Lpc3 - that's interesting from a man's point of view. Wouldn't most women you date be independent and not necessarily looking for those things you stated?

When dating my main priority is to find a man I have chemistry with that I get along with and have shared interests with him.

@adviceall not necessarily. They would be independent of course but I still think a lot of women look favourably on those traits in a man.

I just wanted to reinforce the point that it probably isn't anything to do with you but some of the men you've been on dates with.

@Lpc3 - wisdom yes but women who are Independant don't need a man's finances or for him to be a mentor. Sounds a bit patronizing.

@Lpc3

I'm a man and agree with a few other posters who have said it may come down to their own insecurity.

If I meet a woman who is very independent and seems to have everything together I'd question what I could bring to her life. I'd find it laughable if someone suggested that the woman in question might think my genuine self would be a bonus in her life. Due to this I would be looking at tangible benefits I could bring (finances, wisdom, mentor role, connections etc) and if there wasn't any to be found I'd pull back

I'm looking for: Fun - new experiences together that a new person in your life brings Laughter Good sex Companionship Friendship Ultimately love if that's possible

None of that is me needing a man, just what I'd like. Nothing to do with me being dependent on a man, but if he can put up a shed or de-ice my car in the morning then fantastic because I'd like to do things for them too.
I can put up a shed and de-ice my own car, but nothing better than having a partner in life (when all is good)

Can't you offer those things above @Lpc3 without me simpering and pretending I'm helpless? To me that means I'm choosing to be with you, rather than I need a mate to survive so I'll just grab the nearest best option I can?

@RoseSays I'm not sure if I can but plenty of men out there will be able to. I'm full of self doubt and lack confidence - a lot of men are. That was all I was pointing to. I'm effectively saying it was probably them who had the issue not you.

Due to this I would be looking at tangible benefits I could bring (finances, wisdom, mentor role, connections etc) and if there wasn't any to be found I'd pull back are you looking for a gf or a new member of stuff? That's not meant as harshly as it sounds but I'd assume you're looking for a helpless girl you can make into a decent woman with your wisdom and mentorship 🙄🙄

I do think @RoseSays some guys can struggle feeling like you only WANT them not NEED you. Relationship before DH split with me because he was too insecure about not being exciting to fit into my life (🙄 not a stealth brag. I had a couple of jobs, some volunteering stuff, I was v clear I had time for him) so when I went on first date with DH (OLD) I literally told him on the first date "look I do all this but I want a relationship. I will make time to make a relationship work. That is my priority atm". Thankfully he never felt he had to compete with my life, only fit alongside it

@SleepingStandingUp No it's more if you offer something tangible it's concrete. You might have a very low opinion of yourself but at least if you offer something it gives you a bit more confidence in the relationship.

I don't want to derail OPs thread too much - I was just agreeing with some other posters that the men she dated may have been insecure and it's their comments aren't a reflection on her.

They do say 'independent' with a twinkle in their eye, they seem impressed, but I still get the impression it's a negative.

Yes. Well what they mean is that whilst it's impressive, it's not what they're looking for in a partner. In fact I think few men want a genuine partner. In fact this comment from a PP rather sums up the problem Due to this I would be looking at tangible benefits I could bring (finances, wisdom, mentor role, connections etc) and if there wasn't any to be found I'd pull back. Men will often want someone they perceive as slightly lesser in some way, someone not quite as far along as they are. Why else look to be in a 'mentor' role?

What my DP realised he brings to the mix is love, support, companionship and a genuine partnership. I don't need a mentor, or financial help or any connections. I've got those, thanks. What I do benefit from is my DP's kind, laid back nature. He loves my independence but also knows that if I'm having a hard time I want a shoulder to cry on. And equally I'm there for him. And it's far more flattering if someone independent wants you than it is if someone needy and weak does.

[quote Lpc3]@RoseSays I'm not sure if I can but plenty of men out there will be able to. I'm full of self doubt and lack confidence - a lot of men are. That was all I was pointing to. I'm effectively saying it was probably them who had the issue not you.[/quote]
@Lpc3

Thanks for your answer, believe me I'm full of self-doubt and lack confidence in some areas of my life.

For example I've got a crappy wage packet compared to lots of people (better than the national average - but not so much in the SE where I am) because I pursued a creative career, which hasn't exactly taken me to the highest height which I hoped it would.

I think it's really important to be able to be vulnerable and communicate these fears and insecurities with a significant other, its the most important thing for me actually in a relationship. This is where I NEED someone to be able to support and care about me. I would do the same for them.

My insecurities don't stop me going out and enjoying life, and I couldn't be with someone who was 'stuck' in a way that prevented us moving forward and having fun at the same time.

I actually think I am an over-sharer on dates, guys may be impressed by my 'CV' and so I manage their assumptions about how wonderful my career/work is and the reality that it causes me as much pain as joy! But I have made peace with that, and I am still privileged to be able to do what I do.

I've also had a therapy in the past, and so used to talking about myself....I am an over-thinker and I do muse aloud to be honest I think I must come across as fairly random on dates, but I am just faceted and maybe thats a bit over-whelming?

multi faceted

Well maybe that's it then - it's the over-sharing on the initial dates. Dating 101 for Women says let the man talk on the first date.

Why would a man know anything about your CV on the first date anyway? Leave a little mystery. It's interesting to have a cool job, but even more so not to mention it.

Dating 101 for Women says let the man talk on the first date.

No, that's Dating 1951 . I mean it's basic manners to let someone get a word in edgeways. But let them talk as in let them hold forth for the entire date whilst you sit there, nod and smile, as if their every word contains an infinite pearl of wisdom? Fuck that for a game of soldiers.

Yeah, sorry @BringOnTheOtherWorlders, I'm not going to sit there and say not very much or just eat/drink and smile.
I'm mid-forties. Grown-ups want conversation on dates - not just eyeing each other up. As I've read on here, cock is abundant, so I assume pussy is too....I'm looking for more than just that.

Of course I'm aiming for a 50/50 conversation which flows - it always does - partly because its pretty easy to establish if guys are chatty types via the messaging beforehand, so its not that. I don't go out with guys who aren't able to have a two-way conversation.

In fact I would say the number one complaint I've heard from the guys I've dated about previous dates is that they will make the effort to talk with their dates, and the women are non-talkative and appear not interested in them....then are surprised when the guys aren't interested in seeing them again.

I prefer not to talk about myself actually (just when I get started I don't know when to stop!) so I don't dominate the conversation at all, it always flows nicely.

Jobs, most of the guys I've gone out with have interesting careers, and to be honest it's pretty hard to avoid a direct question about my work, and being creative and interested in the arts and culture is very much me and I couldn't really hide that even if I wanted to. My job isn't super amazing, but it's interesting. Same as the guys careers/jobs I've dated.

I think we all know I'm never going to know why first guy didn't want to carry on seeing me, but I'm finding this thread really informative and will help me deal with this rejection. Its the only time I've been rejected (face to face) via OLD so maybe I just need to get a thicker skin and stop over analysing it! He was so lovely though....

It's cool. I know people don't agree with me.

To me the only real goal of the 1st date is to have the option of a 2nd date. That's it.

I would want the man to ask me for the 2nd date and then it's on me to decide if I agree to a 2nd date or not.

The best way to get the 2nd date is to let them talk on the 1st date. While they are talking I can decide if this is someone I want to have a 2nd date with based on their ramblings.

I'm sure that works for you @BringOnTheOtherWorlders - you sound like you always get a second date offered/wanted.

I'm just saying I always get a second date offered/wanted too and I get to converse and joke etc at the same time.

I think if a man fancies you, you can basically do what the fuck you like and still get a second date.

If you want the truth then yes; men on the whole do have a need to feel needed. I'm 40 and I've been with a few guys and married now but gained quite a bit of understanding around this, it's just not well received in public so I'm just going to tell you to go and watch Elliot Scott on youtube. He will tell you the deal. He really helped me understand a few things when I was single 5 years ago.

You just contradicted yourself completely.

I'm looking for:
Fun - new experiences together that a new person in your life brings
Laughter
Good sex
Companionship
Friendship
Ultimately love if that's possible

But aren’t we all looking for those things, and everyone is going to be plagued by self doubt that they are not handsome/ rich / pretty/ sexy enough for anyone.

Also I don’t think this is really true either

The best way to get the 2nd date is to let them talk on the 1st date. While they are talking I can decide if this is someone I want to have a 2nd date with based on their ramblings.

If I took someone on a 1st date and didn’t say anything, I’d think they didn’t have anything worth hearing, so wouldn’t be a 2nd date.

All these dating strategies and tips from men on YouTube who look young enough to be my son lol.

Surely if the chemistry is mutual it's not that complicated. I think men like to sometimes help and do favors like give lifts - not sure if that counts as needing to feel needed.

I recommend the Female Dating Strategy (FDS) episode called where are the high value men? As well as being funny, I found it really informative. It touches on some of the issue in this thread.