Another marriage one...

[Overandout1]

I know this board is filled with threads like this.

I know ultimately if he wanted to marry me, he would and the rest is just excuses. However here I am and I'm wondering how to approach the situation.

Been with my partner 5 years this summer. Lived together 3 years, have a nearly 3 year old DC and we each have an older child each from previous marriage. I'm 34 he is 51.

I know everyone will say marry before a child but obviously it's too late for that now. Our son was unplanned and at the time I fell pregnant we had only been together 14 months. Marriage hadn't been discussed at this point, however we were in love and decided to continue the pregnancy and move in together (we had discussed moving in).

Anyway here we are and almost been together 5 years.

We have both been divorced. My partner has many issues from his divorce. He is from a wealthy background and lost all his inheritance in his divorce (around 400k). His ex wife made things very difficult when divorcing, she stalked him, stopped him seeing his child for a year then later (at this point he was seeing child).claimed thousands extra in maintanance by saying he didn't see his child. She tried to get him struck off and threatened his elderly father and has MH issues. This has been told to me also by his friends and family and I've seen court reports. I want to make it clear I am NOT making assumptions about his ex, I'm explaining what I have heard from his side and how his divorce impacted him. I was not in the relationship and I have no opinioms of his ex wife, it usually takes 2 to end a marriage and I'm not saying he did no wrong, I wasn't there.
Anyway basically bad divorce.

When we have discussed marriage he has always said he has no issue with marrying me but can't go through another divorce and he would need to be 100% that we won't split (obviously this is not possible). We have had a hard time adjusting initially as we moved in together 2 weeks before I gave birth. My partner had been mostly single for 10 years post divorce and got used to being alone and he can be selfish. However it has caused issues.

We love one another, well I have no reason to think he doesn't love me. When things are good we are great but we can have issues at times.

I've made it clear in the past that I want to get married. He's said several times that he will one day propose, refers to me as his wife, made remarks about type of wedding etc. However, the last time I tried to discuss marriage he basically got angry with me and it ended up with him saying 'dont you realise how bad my divorce was'. He has also said in the past that when you have a child together he believes you don't do anything to break that family unit and that as I in the past had walked away from a marriage with a child, I was capable of doing it again.

I want to get married. Several reasons

• I love him
• want to feel he's committed to me
• I want the same surname as one of my children
• I want to officially be part of his family
• I don't want to be a partner forever
• I envisaged being married to the father of my child
• and the boring one...for practical and legal reasons. If he left or anything happened to him, I'd struggle whereas he has a lot of money behind him.

The issue is this. It's suddenly hit me that we have been together nearly 5 years and I've started to think that if he's not asked by now, he never will and for me, it's important. I'm starting to feel resentful and upset about it.

The issue- I don't know how to broach the conversation because when I last tried he got annoyed and basically said I'm giving him an ultimatum. I'm not even sure how to put it across without making it sound like an ultimatum. I basically said if he didn't love me enough to get married then I wasn't sure it was the right relationship for me. He was upset/angry I'd consider leaving when we have a child. Especially seen as we've both been divorced, so evidently marriage doesn't mean much! And has always said loving me has nothing to do with it. The conversation usually ends with him saying that he isn't against marrying me and one day, how8how long do I wait?

Does he have a point? Or do I accept he doesn't love me enough?

Doing a quick reply as I'm in bed.
Wholeheartedly, it's not the money. Obviously, I have the issue that I couldn't afford to live with him/any partner contributing as I've reduced my hours. The other issue is that there are a huge shortage of properties where Iive, so I would struggle to find somewhere to live.

I promise, we don't have a fancy lifestyle and he doesn't but me lots of things, that's not important anyway. I begged him not to him me anything for Xmas! We ar win a nice 4 bed house, but it's just a rented house. Our money is fairly separate. He isnt frivolous with money but isn't stingy.
He doesn't work many hours so isn't a huge earner. He has savings though and when his father passes, he will inherit very well.
For me, I think I have a need to be loved and looked after. Probably why I'm with a man 17 years older. Unfortunately he is very emotionally immature...or he's very emotionally aware and very clever at manipulating me.

Oh sweetheart, you've been sucked in by a narcissist.

He will always used the excuse not to marry you because you are 'crazy' because any time you raise the subject of marriage, he will immediately start treating you with contempt and disrespect and when you object to the contempt and disrespect, he will call you crazy.

You're not crazy. (His ex-wife is also highly likely not crazy despite the picture you've had painted to you.)

A 51-year-old man with a partner and two children and no will to cover them in the event of his unexpected death is being highly irresponsible. It's bullshit that "nobody does things like this" – actually MOST people do things exactly like that.

As brutal as it is to consider going it alone, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by shutting up and being quiet and trying to 'make things work' with him as he will always dangle what you want out of your reach because it's how he controls you.

Personally I would figure out how to scrape together enough money to leave and then get in touch with his 'crazy' ex-wife to expand your perspective.

I apologise about the typos, I promise I'm not illiterate. My phone has issues with Mumsnet. If I type fast, it misses letters and autocorrects.

HE IS NEVER GOING TO MARRY YOU.

If you are the OP with the part time doctor, he is stringing you along.

You aren’t crazy for wanting a fair provision for your child, and you aren’t unreasonable for wanting security in exchange for giving up earning potential to care for your joint child.

He is gaslighting you, and destroying your self-esteem. You aren’t crazy, mad, unstable, stupid. It suits him if you think you are.

If I were him I wouldn't get married again either.

Be careful that he’s not making you out to be crazy so he can try for custody,

He's definately fobbing you off and gaslighting you with half baked promises that he will marry you one day, or that his Dad will see you ok if something were to happen to him. It's an insult to you that he expects you to be ok with that and is not prepared to see it from your perspective all.

Wait until things have calmed down and write him a letter/email calmly stating your reasons for wanting marriage and/or at least a will leaving you and your child some security, so he can't overide your concerns with anger and insults about your mental state.

After all he has changed your financial status by wanting you to downgrade your hours, presumably to cover childcare and housekeeping duties, which has put you in a vulnerable position should something happen to him.

If nothing improves then get some advice on where you stand if you were to separate, as he has some responsibility for your current situation, as presumably you were able to support yourself ok before you met him and had his child, which is not the case now

@Overandout1

And I hate myself. I hate who I've become. Someone waiting round for a complete waste of space to say she is worthy of him. Then sitting here listening to him tell me I'm mental. He's made me like this. I knew as soon as I discussed marriage he would start raising his voice and arguing with me. He can then look at me and say 'see, how can we get married when we argue and look, now you're crying. See you're mentally unstable. I'm not marrying someone mentally unstbale'

He's never going to marry you. End of.

He keeps adding conditions he needs fulfilling in order for him to propose. Here he's saying now your behaviour has to be agreeable with him. Uhmmm.. are you a child? Big red flag. You are allowed to express your emotions when you're upset and he doesn't get to shame or punish you for that.

Second reason he won't marry you. He's getting all the practical benefits of marriage without the 'risk'. You said yourself you're acting like his wife without the marriage. This needs to stop today. If he wants to stay single, that's what he gets. Stop doing his laundry, chores and meals. Correct him publicly when he refers to you as his wife. Separate your money if you haven't already done this. Stop including him in your plans and just focus on you and your child. Even better, live separately if you can and start casually seeing other men. If he wants at that point to be involved in your life that's fine and he can but he knows the score.

Third reason he won't marry you. He should never punish you for his ex wife's actions. You deserve to be judged on your own merits. He's set impossibly high standard and basically wants a 100% guarantee you will never divorce which of course you can't provide so therefore marriage will never be an option.

I'm sick and tired of seeing smart, wonderful women bend fold chop and mould themselves for a man dangling an engagement ring in front of them like a carrot and using the promise of marriage as a stick to beat them with. It's so degrading. You don't have to break up with him. But do start living your own life OP I promise you'll start feeling better and that resentment you're feeling will fade.

do I think he's going to die and I'm coming across as wanting his money
This is more of the same stuff that I pointed out earlier. Very familiar to me as I recognise all of these manipulation tactics from when my exh was having an affair. He's not on your team, he is treating you like shit and apparently prepared to avoid his financial responsibility as a father. You need to make sure that you can support yourself alone, as you are in a precarious situation relying on him yourself, and you also need to look into how you can ensure he will pay for his child when you break up. Not by asking him what he's going to do; by finding out what your rights are and which authorities you will need to apply to. He could dump you tomorrow, so you need to get on with it.

"I on ehyjdred percent knew as soon as I mentioned marriage, he would start saying I'm mental.
He's basically given me a verbal list that he will marry me when I'm calm, less crazy, don't sulk and don't bring up anything that's happened previously."

This is really not good. A way of taking complete control of the situation, and giving you zero chance of reply because anything you say is that of a 'crazy' person. Which only increases the frustration and upset, making you look more emotional and therefore more 'crazy'. I've been there, when I was in a relationship with an older man - a QC - when I was 19 and he was 43. It will not change. I actually think it is partly generational - my father is the same. The only way to deal with men like that is by shutting down your emotions when you communicate with them - otherwise you give them a weakness to use against you. And they will.

Think hard about whether you truly want to marry this man. Put the financial security to one side for a moment, and ask yourself whether you want to be legally attached to him for the rest of your life. It's a long, painful life to be had if whenever you express that you have needs to be met, you are called crazy.

Financial security can be made for your child without marriage. Do it, focusing him on that aspect, the age difference, his child's future etc, Then if I were you, slowly extricate yourself from the situation. Not all men are like this. You are worth more.

No wife work.
Make sure he does 50% of childcare
Concentrate on earning!

Well at least you know where you stand. Or rather, don't stand!

This is a wake up call for you. He will never prioritise you, nor will he ever marry you.

Mind you, it sounds as though you are seeing the light and coming to the realisation that HE IS A WASTE OF TIME

Focus on you now. Make plans. You work. You are intelligent. You don't need him

@Overandout1

And I hate myself. I hate who I've become. Someone waiting round for a complete waste of space to say she is worthy of him. Then sitting here listening to him tell me I'm mental. He's made me like this. I knew as soon as I discussed marriage he would start raising his voice and arguing with me. He can then look at me and say 'see, how can we get married when we argue and look, now you're crying. See you're mentally unstable. I'm not marrying someone mentally unstbale'

For what it's worth and it seems you have been given a lot of feedback already, a man I thought respected me and was sane and at least average intelligence, spoke to me in EXACTLY the same way EVERY TIME I tried to discuss normal everyday important things. He turned it around to me being rude the way I was talking to him and that all he wanted was for me to be polite to him. He always thought he was the calm one and even he could not say I was emotional or anything because I never cried, it was simply starting a conversation about things every time, no raised voice, no criticism, nothing. That was when I realised he wasn't normal, was manipulating me and would never see that or change. I got rid.

Please leave this relationship. You are so young and have your whole life ahead of you. Your children deserve a happy mum and you deserve to be respected and loved. We all have private battles and sadly this relationship is utterly toxic for you. This is not you, you know that. Please get away and learn to reconnect to yourself. You will never regret it.

I'm upstairs working and he is downstairs with our son.

I've sent this (slightly changed as outing)...

' I've a meeting with my manager to discuss returning to work full time, which we can work around your hours. I have reduced my hours for childcare, if you leave or anything happens I'm vulnerable, at least if I'm working full time I'll be more financially secure, especially as we won't be marrying, we don't own property and there are no financial legal provisions in place. I need to start thinking about how I can look after myself and my children, especially as you seem unsure of our future. Maybe once I go back to work more hours we can also look at a more 50/50 house work division, especially as I'll be out of the house a lot more. I'm sure you understand.'

He'll be fuming. He will either get nasty, say ok (but not expect it to happen), or say if I want to work full time then I have to pay to put our son in nursery (he said this last time). It wouldn't benefit me to put him in nursery but I shall tell 'dp' that on my days to have our son, he will be with me. If he chooses to put him in nursery on his days with him, he can meet the costs.

Remember that you don't have to tell him all your plans.

Don’t back down! He has everything his own way and will fight for it. He’s keeping you at the level of a convenient house appliance that he also gets to have sex with. Keep going, raise yourself up, only you are your best friend.

If he says that childcare needs to be paid by you, then you tell him that if he wants to separate finances to that extent it makes sense for you to leave and live separately, and he can pay CMS for your son.

OP, you're doing the right thing.

You cannot rely on him financially as he won't marry you. so you're going to have to rely on yourself. You should tell him this if he brings anything up:

"DH, I cannot rely on you financially because you won't marry me and you won't discuss wills or other financial matters. If we split up or you died, I would be left with no way to support myself . I therefore need to rely on myself which means going back to work full time so I have more money and can develop my career." Repeat.

There is literally no argument against the above. If he tried to tell you you're crazy, I honestly think this is gaslighting behaviour because the above is completely logical.

The nursery needs to be split fairly between you. No questions. The child is an equal responsibility. I believe the family courts would consider this fair (along with any normal person).

Once you're back full time id just refuse to do half the household jobs. Do the things that will benefit you and the kids. Don't do things that benefit him. For example leave his washing and ironing. It's not your problem.

Save save save. So you can leave if you want to in future. Look at boosting your pension too.

Oh and if he decided he wants to marry you now, I'd say "no".

I think the will is the biggest red flag. He has literally nothing to lose by organizing it, it can be changed and he will be dead so why would he care if you benefit and his child is looked after. Why would he not at the very least want to give you that security, especially when it costs him nothing. The fact that he won't even organize that says a lot- does he want you insecure so you have to place nice and please him ?
It maybe understandable that he doesn't want to get married if he feels he was rinsed during his divorce but there is literally no conceivable reason i can think of why he wouldn't at least sort this.

Thank you all for the replies so far. I'm working at the moment, so haven't got time to reply to each individually but I promise I'm reading them all and 5aking everything on board.

I saw him typing a reply to my message but not read it yet. I've put the conversation on mute so I can't see it come through. It's pathetic but I know I can't discuss anything normally with him and I get anxious about his reply. Im literally having palpitations and have to mentally prepare myself because everything leads to an arguement.

I really don't understand the will. Basically around 6 months ago I said it would be sensible for us to both get life insurance as we have a child. He said it's a waste of money, he doesn't need me to take out life insurance as he is financially ok. When I explained my concerns he said he would change his will to ensure that I'd anything happened the money would go to myself and the children. I didn't ask, he said he would do it. His dad has his will and he said he would ask him the following week, the following week came and he promised to do it the following day, didn't happen so said he would do it in a few days when we next saw his dad and then he said he'd do it before his dad went abroad. It didn't happen and he said to me his dad knows his wishes anyway. I left it and last night mentioned it for the first time in 5 months. However he kept saying that it was suspicious me asking, I sound like I'm after his money, it's very weird and no-one else does this. I said it's not weird, reiterated the reasons and said he shouldn't really rely on his 89 year old father to be in charge of his affairs, as realistically his dad would pass first. He was pretty outraged and said he would sort it next week to shut me up.

It's not as if he showers me with gifts and we have a frivolous lifestyle. In fact, he's offered to buy me things in the past and I say no. I am not after his money but seen as he isn't poor, I think him ensuring that I'd anything happens his son and I can afford a roof over our heads isn't a big ask. Again I suggested if he's not doing a will, we can both take out life insurance, I even offered to pay for his! But he again said it's a waste of time, he'll sort the will, there's no rush, and I'm obviously insecure and have issues.

I remember this coming up in another thread a couple of years ago, and thinking (may even have written, or someone else did) that the thing is, if he is completely self-centred, what may happen to his partner and child after his death isn't going to bother him because he won't be there to see it, and if he didn't see it it didn't happen. If he gives it any thought at all it'll be a vague "they'll be fine". He just knows it's the right thing to say to mollify the little woman. Getting round to actually doing it isn't important. It's quite possible that although he does love them, it isn't what many of us would understand love to be; it's a purely selfish feeling that these people are nice to have around and he'll do whatever the minimum is to make sure they stay around. If they go he might even miss them. But caring about what happens to them, just not on the radar.

One also wonders at what point the ex-wife became unstable. Before or after she lived with him? Coincidence?

@Anniegetyourgun you may be right. I will say that he is a lot better than he used to be and clearly adores our son. His upbringing is very important to him and I can't imagine he would want him to suffer. I do partly think it is genuine laziness. In the sense that he will keep putting it off as he doesn't see himself dying any time soon and doesn't see a rush. My dad died at his age of a heart attack and life is not guaranteed.

With his ex wife, who knows! Apparently she wa depressed throughout the relationship, lazy, didn't do anything. He then left her after her affair. In honesty though, it's hardly surprising her mental health suffered.

His reply to my previous text...

"we could marry one day... if you reign in your anger and wild emotional swings long-term. Whether that'll take counseling or whatever first you need to except it's not normal. To me is obvious since I've seen patients with similar issues and refer or treat them. If you're so set on marriage you'd seek help re something that disrupts our relationship and is very hard for me to deal with. Long-term pessimism and weekly negative thoughts need dealing with"

So there you go.