When is an affair the real thing?

[Mummywifey]

I ask because I have been lurking on here for a long time…looking for answers/similar stories to the situation I find myself in.

What I notice is that without exception (that I have seen so far) is that affairs are referred to “mistakes”, dismissed as fantasy, passed off as love bombing and always doomed to fail long term.

I know that in real life some people do meet new partners while married or in relationships and go on to have happy futures together.

So when is an affair not a mistake? Or in what situation may it be accepted as a happy ending?.

I’m not questioning the fact that affairs are morally wrong - the deception and lying are wrong and unkind. In some marriages I am sure one or both partners are unhappy and only gain the courage to leave when someone else gives them the hope. But is it a tiny proportion of affairs that end up being true love or…..?

Really only pondering the subject and don’t wish to be bashed for it…would just be interested to hear varying perspectives.

I actually got therapy to try to understand why I was having strong attractions to other people which made me face up to the fact that my exH was emotionally and sexually abusive - at that point I wanted my marriage to work and believed the issue lay with me, I was not expecting divorce to be the outcome.
I truly believe the attractions were my subconscious trying to get me out of a damaging situation.

@AdamRyan would you mind sharing what it was that your partner did which you didn’t realise was abusive? I’m trying to work out if this is going on in my own relationship.

My exh and his OW both had a good time during the affair. I had a terrible time, lost 10kg, went on ADs as he was gaslighting me, playing mind games and making me think I was horrible. Our dd guessed before me and started collecting evidence. Our son needed therapy. He'd been sleeping with us both unprotected so I had to get tested for STDs.

They broke up after 4 years. His love may have been genuine, but his claim that he wanted a child with her was not. If they'd stayed together, in love, would that have justified my exh's treatment of me and his children? Hardly. When I suspected my exh was interested in the OW I told him that if he wanted to break up I would go along with it; I was just asking him to do things the right way round. He could have had his new gf, without an affair and all the mind games and lies it required.

So does that mean his affair was a mistake? Our marriage didn't work out either, does that mean it was a mistake too? Less genuine? Is a relationship only genuine or successful if it lasts until one or both of you dies? Life is more complicated than that.

Now, I'm sorry I won't have the life I expected. I won't live in the house I thought I'd live in; my home is much smaller, no space for visitors. I won't be with the person I shared all the important moments in my life with. No reminiscing about old times or sharing family jokes together. But since we broke up, I have discovered what a really thoughtful, attentive, considerate partner is like; I had no idea. I've experienced things and grown as a person in unexpected, positive ways.

What should I do to work out if the affair was a bad or good thing for him or me? Excel spreadsheet?

MIL cheated on FIL numerous times throughout their marriage. They lived in a small village so everyone at the local pub knew about it and a couple had told FIL but he believed MIL when she said it was nonsense, for some reason… Anyway her last affair was with his best friend of all people. DH caught them in the act (horrific I know) and told FIL who still wanted to believe MIL when she denied it. Unbelievable really.

Anyway they did divorce and MIL was with the best friend for ten years until he suddenly ended things last year. It’s really shaken MIL, they were engaged and she was planning their big wedding. She just hasn’t taken it well at all and is struggling because she’s always been in a LTR her whole adult life (met FIL when she was about 17) so it’s her first time single. She’s acting a bit crazy tbh, started burlesque dancing which is just pure cringe at her age and she’s been doing online dating but making sure everyone knows about it including DH and I (the details are just embarrassing tbh). She’s also taking her ex to court claiming she has dibs on his house because she’d paid some of the bills. It’s all rather embarrassing and we feel very sorry for her.

FIL, on the other hand, has been with his partner for around 9 years now and they’re very happy. Think he had the last laugh really.

Error. Its awkward because it sounds so ridiculous in hindsight but I was in huge denial trying to keep my marriage together. So:

1. coerced/pressured/pestered me for sex all the time
2. persuaded me his use of webcams was because I was too vanilla/prudish to give him what he needed sexually and I didn't mind porn so he genuinely didn't realise I'd think it was cheating
3. wouldn't do the things I wanted to have fun sex for me (e.g. said at the outset he didn't enjoy woman on top - so we never did it so I had little control over stuff if that makes sense)
4. would only let me make decisions about stuff he didn't care about - anything he disagreed about ended up either nothing happened or he got his way
5. very sporadically exploded into calling me names like cunt and telling me he hated me, then claimed I pushed him into it (this happened just a handful of times but clearly is abusive)
6. told me I was useless at more and more stuff in the house so I wasn't "allowed" to do it (shopping, laundry, washing up)
7. minimised/ignored if I was ill
8. spent loads of our savings on porn while gaslighting me if I asked questions - telling me had imagined our account was healthier than it was, he would never do that blah blah. He'd cleverly got sole access to a lot of joint savings over the years.

But this was all against a backdrop of day to day him acting like my best friend, we genuinely enjoyed spending time together, he was very very hands on with kids, so I thought all the stuff above was just the normal negatives in a marriage and tried to work through it. It was literally the "one drop of shit in a delicious dinner" analogy they post about on the relationships board.

Oh, also I had no privacy at all and thought that was normal.

Even now I think maybe it wasn't that bad.

Am now with the man who sparked the therapy (as I was so attracted to him) and there is nothing of that in the relationship and I'm deeply deeply in love with him. Was not an affair but I'm not proud of being attracted to him while with exH.

The judgemental types on MN will never acknowledge the fact that affairs can lead to happy relationships. There is also the blanket belief that the wife is left devastated and lonely when in my experience that isn’t the case. Lots of marriages are already in serious trouble by the time an affair happens. Why is it always portrayed as the poor innocent wife left alone? Both the wife and husband are equally responsible for the marriage working and it is natural for some couples to grow apart over time. As others have said it’s more common for people to find a new relationship before leaving a bad one especially when there are DC or shared finances. I know plenty of couples who started as affairs who are still happy together years later and plenty of betrayed spouses who were glad to be rid of their ex and are now happy in new relationships.

@Baws

And they all lived happily ever after

The end.

[quote ZaphodDent]@BetsyBrush

I wrote a really good reply, and then lost it. Doh.

I don’t mean to make excuses. It's on me. I'm at fault.

The only thing I will add, by way of comment rather than excuse, for those lucky enough never to have experienced severe limerence (or a huge crush, call it what you will) is that some of the symptoms can be awful. I experienced incessant intrusive thoughts about the OW, multiple times a minute, all day long, for many months, to the point where I broke down on my own one morning in the shower and cried and screamed in frustration.

I've been hesitant to call it a MH issue, because that really does sound like a cop-out, but I've never experienced anything like it. I don't know if I'm an outlier, or if others can relate to that, but the way your mind can obsess about an OW or OM is horrific. And that's not a choice to think like that, I would have scrubbed my brain out with bleach if I had thought it would stop the obsessive thinking. Getting a WhatsApp from her would give me a shot of relief. Ridiculous to say it now.

My big mistake was letting it start in the first place, avoiding the warning signs, being flattered, enjoying the sensations. Once it starts it's flipping hard to stop it.[/quote]
I have been in this situation but wouldn't describe it as limerence and I certainly agree with your last paragraph.

@Onthedunes

Yes they are actually! Sorry if that doesn’t fit your stereotype!

@Baws

I don't really care about stereotypes.

I agree many affairs end up being full time relationships.
It doesn't alter the fact that it's not the best way to start a relationship.

Surely no one would dispute that.

And your reckoning that many wives are happy to lose the ex is just wishful thinking or what you believe due to your own circumstances.

Affairs cause pain, for wives, children, grandchildren and extended families, homes are blown apart, but if you wish to believe everybody comes out of them equally happy then you are sadly mistaken.

Remember it can happen to anyone, no one is immune, that goes for wonderful second relationships that started as affairs aswell.

You say that you don’t agree with stereotypes but then go on to list several! 🙄😂
You sound bitter. I was the one who was cheated by the way so not speaking as an OW. Your stereotypes don’t reflect the situation in my family or anyone I know.

In fact I will go as far to say where there has been an affair there will be a trail of destruction somewhere.

@Baws

You say that you don’t agree with stereotypes but then go on to list several! 🙄😂 You sound bitter. I was the one who was cheated by the way so not speaking as an OW. Your stereotypes don’t reflect the situation in my family or anyone I know.

You always attack the person speaking Baws, don't you?

Ok, you sound patronising and ignorant.

@ZaphodDent I read all your posts with interest. You describe almost exactly what I witnessed my husband experiencing and what he now articulates to me. Once he chose to be hooked he was hooked but he is very clear that he gave himself permission to do it and that came from selfishness and entitlement. I suspect many many more partners involved in these sorts of affairs have experienced the same level of almost ‘addiction’ and the same realisations as the chemical brain highs wear off.

Generally, I have wondered about the validity when comparing cheating in a long term cohabiting relationship when ‘dating’ TO an AFFAIR when one or both cheats are married with children.

I know my experience of both as a betrayed was strikingly different. Cheated on by long term cohabiting ex-boyfriends, who then went onto relationships with these people, not nice, but got over it, pretty damn fast. Both boyfriends married these women BUT the marriages ended. Left me sad but mainly was bloody relieved to get rid of them.

The affair I experienced as a betrayed was entirely different. It was far reaching. It involved and hurt and damaged my children, family, extended family and my husband himself (a narrative rarely discussed). It caused me PTSD and anxiety.

Of course we know there are some happy relationships born of affairs. Of course we know the reasons/EXCUSES behind affairs are varied. But cheating is always wrong and there is no doubt of the devastation to families when it comes to AFFAIRS in the truest sense of the word which I thought this thread was about.

As I’ve said before, statistically relationships born of affairs are very likely to fail. That’s not conjecture, that’s a statistical fact. What is fascinating affair psychologists and neuroscience is why that is. And it’s finding more and more that it isn’t on the marriage but on the people cheating.

Affairs cause pain, for wives, children, grandchildren and extended families, homes are blown apart, but if you wish to believe everybody comes out of them equally happy then you are sadly mistaken.
Isn't that true of many marriage break downs, regardless of the cause?
Why are affairs singled out for specific censure when marriages end for all sorts of reasons, usually not particularly noble and involving a breaking of trust by one partner? 50% of marriages end in divorce

As I’ve said before, statistically relationships born of affairs are very likely to fail. That’s not conjecture, that’s a statistical fact

The problem with statements like that is that researchers are relying on self reporting by the participants of the research sample. In the U.K. apparently 22% of men and 14% of women admit to infidelity. The figure for older women rises to 20% also. So these are just the people who admit infidelity to a researcher. Does it seem likely some people don’t admit it? Is it likely that some couples won’t mention how they got together in the first place. I would assume any figure in these studies are under represented and there are couples around now who don’t discuss the origins of their relationship.

@AdamRyan
Affairs are a uniquely painful experience for the betrayed person but also for the children and extended family, and in many cases also eventually for the person who perhaps also loses their family through having had the affair.

The pain, grief and sense of loss is acute, for all those times when life and the relationship was presumed to be one way, but now needs to be reframed and processed as having been totally different. There are several deeply disturbing emotions for all to process, and children in particular can suffer awfully from having to be exposed to and deal with the visceral reality of one or other of their parents' sexual betrayal. This is often accompanied by the affair parent having changed their family behaviour - perhaps been less present, prioritised the affair over family time, spent money on the affair partner, been distant or worse towards the other parent. And although people try to hide their feelings, it's very likely the children will also have had to see the pain and distress of their betrayed parent.

It is like letting off a bomb in the heart of everyone's safe world. It is a true nightmare, and life is not only never the same again, but even the life they thought they'd had is destroyed. Just trashed.

A couple falling out of love is not nearly as bad, usually.

@Divebar2021

As I’ve said before, statistically relationships born of affairs are very likely to fail. That’s not conjecture, that’s a statistical fact

The problem with statements like that is that researchers are relying on self reporting by the participants of the research sample. In the U.K. apparently 22% of men and 14% of women admit to infidelity. The figure for older women rises to 20% also. So these are just the people who admit infidelity to a researcher. Does it seem likely some people don’t admit it? Is it likely that some couples won’t mention how they got together in the first place. I would assume any figure in these studies are under represented and there are couples around now who don’t discuss the origins of their relationship.

Absolutely but if you actually look at the statistics around longevity of relationships after an affair it’s not just low, it’s DIRE, below 5% DIRE! You can argue a few couples keeping quiet about the origins and are a success but you could also argue that many couples who get together on the back of an affair and fail would keep quiet too because of shame (possibly more likely). So the percentage could be lower than the 3-4% documented!

@Aphrodite31 totally agree! I honestly believe that unless you’ve experienced infidelity (in what the betrayed considers) a happy settled marriage you will never understand the fall out. It’s just not comparable to an amicable marriage break down. Or even one where one party isn’t wanting the breakdown but has seen it coming.

@AdamRyan

Affairs cause pain, for wives, children, grandchildren and extended families, homes are blown apart, but if you wish to believe everybody comes out of them equally happy then you are sadly mistaken. Isn't that true of many marriage break downs, regardless of the cause? Why are affairs singled out for specific censure when marriages end for all sorts of reasons, usually not particularly noble and involving a breaking of trust by one partner? 50% of marriages end in divorce

One reason can be that it causes the person to question the whole of their previous marriage life - by question I mean sitting with a piece of paper covering years and listing holidays and events and asking what why etc . Rather different from a " we have grown apart "scenario .

@Onthedunes

‘And your reckoning that many wives are happy to lose the ex is just wishful thinking or what you believe due to your own circumstances.’

I said that in my experience most people have happily moved on. I don’t understand why someone would still be bitter years later.

Affairs cause pain, for wives, children, grandchildren and extended families, homes are blown apart, but if you wish to believe everybody comes out of them equally happy then you are sadly mistaken.

This is the most ridiculous sweeping generalisation I have read on this post so far. I am assuming that you suggest people just stay in miserable marriages in case their future grandchildren might get a bit upset that their grandparents don’t live together anymore?

Remember it can happen to anyone, no one is immune, that goes for wonderful second relationships that started as affairs aswell.

I think after 20/30 years my friends and family members I referred to have the same chance as any other relationship. I’ll be sure to pass on your warning that they need to be careful that the affair they had 20 years ago means that they could split up any day. 🙄😂

I attack posters and sound ignorant and patronising??

You were the one who tagged me and started attacking my views just because I disagreed with your sweeping generalisations! I really hope you’re not this bitter and unpleasant in real life whenever someone disagrees with you.

I suspect "we have grown apart" is a rather uncommon reason for divorce, even though its what many people say. In fact I usually think the partner who feels grown apart is tempted by, if not having, an affair.

I meant peoples marriages fail for things like gambling addiction, hidden debt, alcoholism, porn use, abuse. All these things also damage trust and leave the "victim" feeling they didn't know the person that they married. I think its weird that when it's affairs the marriage is "blown apart" and it's seen as the worst thing ever. In other types of betrayal the wronged party is often asked to justify why they left, alongside dealing with the trauma the behaviour caused

Marriage breakdowns are painful for the people involved and their loved ones regardless of the cause.

@Baws

The judgemental types on MN will never acknowledge the fact that affairs can lead to happy relationships. There is also the blanket belief that the wife is left devastated and lonely when in my experience that isn’t the case. Lots of marriages are already in serious trouble by the time an affair happens. Why is it always portrayed as the poor innocent wife left alone? Both the wife and husband are equally responsible for the marriage working and it is natural for some couples to grow apart over time. As others have said it’s more common for people to find a new relationship before leaving a bad one especially when there are DC or shared finances. I know plenty of couples who started as affairs who are still happy together years later and plenty of betrayed spouses who were glad to be rid of their ex and are now happy in new relationships.

It may be common for people to find a new relationship before leaving a bad one, but by doing it that way round the new relationship is forever tarnished - it's not pure, like when two unattached people meet and start a relationship in good faith.

Ex affair partners who get together may be happy after the event but there must surely be that 'thing' niggling in the background forever?

It wouldn't do for me. I'd feel somehow 'lesser' as a person if I entered into a relationship with someone who was already attached.

@AdamRyan

I suspect "we have grown apart" is a rather uncommon reason for divorce, even though its what many people say. In fact I usually think the partner who feels grown apart is tempted by, if not having, an affair.

I meant peoples marriages fail for things like gambling addiction, hidden debt, alcoholism, porn use, abuse. All these things also damage trust and leave the "victim" feeling they didn't know the person that they married. I think its weird that when it's affairs the marriage is "blown apart" and it's seen as the worst thing ever. In other types of betrayal the wronged party is often asked to justify why they left, alongside dealing with the trauma the behaviour caused

Marriage breakdowns are painful for the people involved and their loved ones regardless of the cause.

I think it's because infidelity is a direct breach of the marriage contract (forsaking all others) but the others are less well defined.

My friend was married and had an affair. Her wife couldn't divorce her on the grounds of adultery though because piv hadn't taken place. Their divorce isn't finalised yet and her estranged wife has since met a man and had a child with him. Technically, she is the only one who can be accused of adultery!

There isn't anything specifically in the marriage contract that talks about alcoholism or debt and technically these would be permissable under 'for better or worse' and the wronged party needs to justify why they aren't honouring that part of the contract.