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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

What is the behaviour called? Subtle undermining? It's not negging but similar.

101 replies

pastypirate · 27/12/2021 22:47

Trying to process dp behaviour. Relationship on its last legs.

Making a point of not commenting directly on my hair when I got it done. The dc pushed him and he said something purposely neutral. I was quite hurt as I was really pleased. I went back to blonde and imo my hairdresser did an amazing job. On its own not a big deal just trying to lay out some examples of a broader picture.

Making digs at things the dc and I like. This was constant in the last few months. An example is tv shows the dc and I have been enjoying together - dp was so mean about them we started just watching them when he wasn't there so it took ages with things like strictly. Another time I asked dp if he minded what we watched he said no. So I put on a diy show and he made digs until I switched it off and got a bit upset. This is always met with 'can't have an opinion???'

There was an event that one of the dc had been looking forward to for over 6 months. We went (just dc and me) and loved it. Dp asked me about it and I described a small part of it. He immediately critiqued it. I was again upset.

Another one I've thought of it's days out. Dp will agree to come when it's our choice but be subtly difficult and not really join in. When it's his choice it's a different story. To be fair the dc have had a good time on his choice days out.

He makes subtle digs about the music the dc and I like abs will try and undermine that but we ignore him but I know it's there.

More and more subtle and overt undermining all the bloody time. To the point where I'm actually a bit scared of him knowing about what I'm reading for example. He gets very frothy about feminist literature - no surprise there is there!! If I bring up and activism I've read about it's shot down immediately.

I find/found it very hard to challenge this as I'm v scared of there being an atmosphere in the house with the kids.

I'm ending this relationship but I need to understand this behaviour for my own sanity!

OP posts:
Justleaveitblankthen · 28/12/2021 07:59

This is a very interesting thread for me.
My own examples:
The material I read
The country I am from ( we lived abroad, he's european )
The religions here ( that our DS attended a school affiliated to one )
All of my sporty hobbies ( he would drive past as I was out running & get dd to ask if I wanted a lift home Hmm and completely ignore my running afterwards. Never referred to it. Ever! Same if I ever went to a friend's house or met up with them for a coffee.
The food I ate
The products I used
Make up
Swim wear
Clothing
The friends I had ( there was always something "suspicious" about them )
The time I went to sleep
The time I woke up
The fact I wrote a diary ( 15 years later it has proved a fascinating read Grin )

To be fair, he was like this about most other people too ( especially women ) and during all of this, we were no longer a couple but around each other for dd's sake.

Has he replaced the crockery he deliberately destroyed yet? Angry

Justleaveitblankthen · 28/12/2021 08:01

Emoji fail, sorry - I intended Angry face, not a grin of course!

daretodenim · 28/12/2021 08:02

I get why you want a name for it. I'm the same. Once it has a name, it can be categorised and filed in my head. Then dealt with at the time or later. A label means that what happened to me is an actual thing, it's not just me making it up or being over sensitive. Without a label it floats around and I can't quite deal with it.

user15364596354862 · 28/12/2021 08:03

It's just bog standard coercive control.

Whilst being able to identify his various tactics is useful none of them stand alone, and it's important to recognise they all go together as a pattern of coercive control. Always look at the wider pattern not the 'incidents' alone.

As he realises you're serious about ending the relationship he will work through a variety of tactics to try and regain control of you. Don't let him suck you back in.

Lilymossflower · 28/12/2021 08:51

I would say devaluation

pastypirate · 28/12/2021 10:46

@Lilymossflower

I would say devaluation
Yeh that's a good point. It just made me feel shit
OP posts:
pastypirate · 28/12/2021 10:47

@Justleaveitblankthen

This is a very interesting thread for me. My own examples: The material I read The country I am from ( we lived abroad, he's european ) The religions here ( that our DS attended a school affiliated to one ) All of my sporty hobbies ( he would drive past as I was out running & get dd to ask if I wanted a lift home Hmm and completely ignore my running afterwards. Never referred to it. Ever! Same if I ever went to a friend's house or met up with them for a coffee. The food I ate The products I used Make up Swim wear Clothing The friends I had ( there was always something "suspicious" about them ) The time I went to sleep The time I woke up The fact I wrote a diary ( 15 years later it has proved a fascinating read Grin )

To be fair, he was like this about most other people too ( especially women ) and during all of this, we were no longer a couple but around each other for dd's sake.

Has he replaced the crockery he deliberately destroyed yet? Angry

No of course not! He did the default 'it wasn't my fault I didn't know it's not fair you can't be cross with me' response. Then I panicked privately anytime he went near any other sentimental but delicate things. He's gaslighty af
OP posts:
pastypirate · 28/12/2021 10:48

@PicsInRed

He's emotionally abusing you, as he's afraid you're more than good enough to leave him and be happy alone with the kids.

I think you should prove him right.

FlowersFlowers

Thank you I agree
OP posts:
pastypirate · 28/12/2021 10:49

@HomeTheatreSystem

You are very fortunate you don't cohabit or are married to this sad excuse for a human being! He sounds like a dementor. Please don't turn yourself inside out trying to provide a rational explanation to him for why you're dumping him as he will simply disagree and challenge you to come up with something more. Just tell him he no longer makes you happy, you enjoy life much more without him there and that's all there is to it. He doesn't have to like your decision or agree with it but that's what you want and that's how it's going to be. He is jealous and what I would call a "small man". He feels diminished by you for some reason and has to nitpick at your choices in small ways to make himself feel better. It's death by a thousand tiny cuts: I think you'll feel like a huge weight has been lifted off your shoulders once he's gone. Good luck Flowers
It really was death by 1000 cuts
OP posts:
Resilience · 28/12/2021 11:11

Well done for getting out. My advice is don't engage further. If you're the sort of person who finds it hard to be 'harsh' to others, by all means send one last text saying it's over, you don't wish to discuss it any more, you wish him the best but will no longer answer any calls/messages - and then ignore completely. Block if you need to.

IME people like this cannot change. And on the very rare occasions they do, it usually follows years of therapy to understand their own behaviour. If he's prepared to put the effort in, a new partner may reap the rewards further down the line, but it is arrogant and selfish in the extreme to expect you to wait and unrealistic to expect change overnight (i.e. in time to 'save' your relationship). The truth is, if he was capable of having the level of insight to change his behaviour, you wouldn't be having these latest conversations with him in the first place. He's clearly not, so don't waste your time. All it does it suck the energy you could use for far greater benefit on yourself or your children. His problem = his time and effort required, not yours.

Don't waste too much time analysing it after either. You've given him enough headspace. You had the emotional intelligence and insight to recognise his behaviour was wrong and move on before combining your lives to the point where separation was a lot more tricky. You've done great. The problem is him not you and you don't need to fix anything in you.

Good luck. Flowers

EarthSight · 28/12/2021 11:20

@CheekyHobson

Sounds like a form of covert narcissism. It shows up as passive aggressiveness or superiority to cover up his own insecurities. I recognise it from my abusive ex.

I'd suggest a TV show to watch: "Bit lightweight, isn't it?"
I bought new sheets in a beautiful mustard colour. "They're certainly very bright." (He wanted to approve everything that was bought for the house so that it met his aesthetic standards)
I noted that my hair had started growing back after a period of unusual loss. "Well, your hair is thin naturally so I can't really tell the difference." (This from a bald man!)

He'd walk ahead of me and the kids when were were out. Wouldn't join in family dinner conversations but would get on his phone instead. "I'm not really into those sort of movies" (family movies). Couldn't be bothered with birthday parties or even present buying. ("I never know what you want, just buy something yourself from me.") Always gave the impression that he was above our petty interests and lowbrow tastes or would sometimes join in but make it clear through his lack of enthusiam that he considered it beneath him.

His problem was that the only thing he really enjoyed was feeling superior to other people, because secretly, most of the time he felt worse than everyone else.

@CheekyHobson Was it that unusual? Maybe you lost hair because of having to live with your husband.

If you were so lowbrow for him, why was he with you?? Sex? Someone to be sneery at?

billy1966 · 28/12/2021 11:24

He sounds like such an awful waster.

How many years have you been with him?

Such negativity around your children isn't healthy.

CurryLover55 · 28/12/2021 12:03

shedmistress your post rocks!

camperqueen54 · 28/12/2021 12:11

Gaslighting?

pastypirate · 28/12/2021 12:29

For what it's worth I started questioning all this when I read another mn post where the op thought her partner wished it could be just the two of them on their own forever. I realised dp would choose this in a heartbeat. He has made me feel isolated though he has never stopped me seeing friends etc just been so painfully shy and awkward it's made socialising really hard. The dc have friends over a lot and he has been subtly difficult and uncomfortable. I remember thinking once that if we lived together he might be quite vocal about visitors and the frequency. Well it's my house!

OP posts:
pastypirate · 28/12/2021 12:29

@billy1966

He sounds like such an awful waster.

How many years have you been with him?

Such negativity around your children isn't healthy.

You're right it's not. I told him once before I wouldn't tolerate an atmosphere around my dc and he did it again anyway.
OP posts:
pastypirate · 28/12/2021 12:31

I mentioned to him once that Jess Phillips reads out the names of all the women killed by men in Parliament once. I didn't know about that until recently. He had a mini tantrum ranting about what about all the male suicide. That comment is in my top 5 reasons for ending this.

OP posts:
billy1966 · 28/12/2021 14:53

Have you actually ended it or contemplating doing so?

He sounds like such a downer of a person.

How could you stomach having his critical presence coming to your home.

Sounds so weird that you would allow him in.

Has he a key?

Pinkbonbon · 28/12/2021 15:50

Funnily enough, I wouldnt have said gaslighting because that's more like trying to convince someone they are overreacting/crazy ect...

But when you think about it, making out that someone's taste is shit is going to make them start feeling that they aren't allowed to like the things they like. I agree with the above poster that it is devaluation. But I suppose you could argue there is gaslighting involved too.

It's funny that he asked 'do I not get an opinion' when I actual fact, at every opportunity he denies your right to have an opinion by making out that it is wrong or bad or....crazy....for not being the exact same opinion as his.

Pinkbonbon · 28/12/2021 15:53

@pastypirate

I mentioned to him once that Jess Phillips reads out the names of all the women killed by men in Parliament once. I didn't know about that until recently. He had a mini tantrum ranting about what about all the male suicide. That comment is in my top 5 reasons for ending this.
Ugh yeah, he doesn't like women.
pastypirate · 28/12/2021 16:11

I've just remembered the food comments.......

OP posts:
CheekyHobson · 28/12/2021 17:06

@EarthSight

Was it that unusual? Maybe you lost hair because of having to live with your husband.

Oh, I meant 'unusual' in the sense of 'more than the usual number of strands falling out' but no, you're right, it was to do with the stress of living with him. I also developed an autoimmune condition due to the stress (now in remission).

If you were so lowbrow for him, why was he with you?? Sex? Someone to be sneery at?

Whew, good question. Even the sex stopped eventually because it became awful and he refused to discuss it, making out (like always) that the problem was me.

When you've been told for years that you're the one causing problems, that you have unrealistic expectations of relationships and your partner, that you're impossible to please, that you're controlling – basically broken down through devaluation and criticism – you lose your sense of 'self' – who you really are.

It becomes hard to know if your internal feelings and thoughts that there's something terribly wrong with your partner are correct, or if in fact you're the person there's something terribly wrong with. It doesn't help that narcissists lie well and often. If you are basically an honest person, it can be really hard to wrap your head around the idea that someone you love is lying confidently, remorselessly and regularly to your face.

Again, the irony is that there's nothing lowbrow about my tastes and I'm actually more intelligent, educated and generally more culturally literate than my ex, but he had a few areas of very specific interest and considered anything outside of them to be 'poor taste'.

The real reason he was with me (I eventually came to realise and accept) was money (that I had earned and invested well, and the money I will eventually inherit), maintaining the appearance of being a well-rounded 'family man' and the fact that he liked the lifestyle that I lived (I cook well, my job means I'm quite well-connected, I like to have a clean house).

Again, ironically, narcissists covet what others have, but even if they manage to acquire what others have by proxy, it's not enough for them – they actually feel compelled to undermine those things.

So my ex hid his earnings from me and spent it on frivolous things while I put every cent I earned into our family account, he complained about how much I worked and demanded that I use my skills to bolster his own business ("It's our family business now") and he refused to do an equal amount of childcare, meaning that my own professional influence waned as I had less time for my own work and eventually our finances became quite tenuous.

He was very fussy about food, and catering to his tastes (he would comment or sulk if he didn't like something I made) meant that cooking, which I previously loved to do, became a massive chore, and while he would contribute to housework if specific chores were set for him and followed up on, he would always put in the minimum effort necessary and no more, and complain that he was being 'nagged' if he neglected to do anything, or I pointed out additional things that needed to be done (which he would never notice himself and do proactively).

Writing all this down in a block makes it seem like the behaviour was unmissable and extreme, but it all occurs as a slow drip-drip-drip over time (after an initial phase of extreme lovebombing, when the narcissist acts like the perfect man), so you don't really see it until after many years of gradual and subtle undermining as the 'perfect man' mask slowly slips away.

Eventually, if you're lucky, you wake up and realise that the life you are living is an incredibly long way away from the life you once had, the 'you' you once were, and even the life that your ex promised you that you would have together.

IsThePopeCatholic · 28/12/2021 17:32

I think he is displaying profound misogyny in all his behaviour.

pastypirate · 28/12/2021 17:38

My dc have just started watching friends the tv show. Dp would have been v sneers I'm glad he's not here.

OP posts:
ScabbyHorse · 28/12/2021 18:34

I'm glad you are all enjoying watching Friends without him there sneering at you. Who the hell does he think he is anyway?! I'm angry on your behalf.
I would call it emotional invalidation. It is very hard to pin down and impossible to prove.