Is it gaslighting if it's not on purpose?

[MerryMarigold]

For years 'D'h has made me feel like I'm going mad as he'll deny he's said certain things, usually in the heat of a row, or accused me of things such as losing a key when later he'll find it somewhere he put it (this type of thing happens quite a lot). It does make me feel like I'm going mad, and at times I wonder if he's emotionally abusive, but I think he just
does it because he's too insecure to admit he's done or said certain things (or forgotten, as in the case of the key), or because he genuinely believes in that moment in time that he didn't say something or mean something which I believe he did say or mean. I mean it's not intentionally to manipulate me, but it does really get to me to the point I often feel like I wish we could record conversations because what I remember and what he remembers can be so different. We've been married for 18 years and it's really got to me over the years, increasingly so I think. I don't think he does it on purpose but is it still abuse or just really bad communication?

My ex was exactly the same, denied things he'd previously said and accused me of burning a cake he'd cooked! Definitely gaslighting.

Had to laugh at the cake, sorry! 😂

Regardless of whether or not it is intentional, if he cannot ever conceive of a situation where it might have been due to a failing on his part and his natural default is to blame you, you have a problem. You are held in contempt. Hard to row back from there, sounds like this relationship ran its course a while back.

If it’s not intentional, then it’s a mixture of poor memory plus poor communication skills. That doesn’t make it acceptable to adapt to a bad memory by accusing your partner or other relatives of losing or misplacing things, or dismissing their recall of certain events. Many people get defensive like this out of fear of being gaslighted themselves. So they cling to belief their memory is correct.

I think your DH needs to face the fact he has a poor memory and be willing to trust that you would not gaslight him into thinking something happened which did not happen? If you both have poor memories, well then it should be something to laugh about rather than have a row.

Then take steps to adapt to poor memory. We have locator tags on things that we can see on an app on our phone. They’re little RFI tags that you can add to a key ring, or slip in a purse or coat. Can even attach one to a pet collar. We also have a communal calendar and weekly menu in the kitchen so we can constantly remind ourselves who is doing what, when and cooking what and when.

Oh my god this happens in my family ALL THE TIME! If something gets lost I get blamed for “tidying it away” - to the point where I question myself ridiculously. I don’t know if it’s gaslighting but it’s really annoying and you have my sympathy!

Does it matter? His behaviour is making you unhappy. He’s aware of this and not making attempts to address said behaviour. I’m not sure it matters if said behaviour said behaviour is technically gaslighting or not - it’s impact on you is the same.

Of course it matters if behaviour is intentional or not. What a stupid thing to say. You’re not going to flush a marriage of 18yrs down the shitter due to a common aging related issue such as failing memory.

This sounds more like one of those dynamics that develop over time as memory gets less sharp and the couple are ill prepared to face its reality, communicate well about it and then adapt to it. We can’t all be twenty something year olds for ever you know.

if he cannot ever conceive of a situation where it might have been due to a failing on his part and his natural default is to blame you, you have a problem.

I think this is it more often than memory but I don't think it's because he holds me in contempt but that he is too insecure to admit the failing. Interestingly, DS1 is similar and it drives dh insane! DS2 is very confident and has no problem admitting he's wrong. I guess what I'm saying is that though it's not intentionally abusive, the effect of gaslighting is the same in that it makes you question your sanity. I often think I'm going mad until there's something 'proveable' in that it was written down or recorded by date etc and realise I was right about something he's denied, so I was probably right about other things which I couldn't prove but led me to question myself.

Hold on, so which is it?

Poor memory?
Or being insecure and not wanting to admit he’s wrong. (Which has nothing to do with memory)

The two are completely different.

I think it's more insecurity as mentioned above and in my OP as this has been going on since we first got married. Sometimes memory such as keys but even then that can be your mind saying "It can't be me..." and therefore forgetting.

Well in that case you’re looking at two scenarios.

It’s completely subconscious because it’s such ingrained behaviour/ thinking patterns (although many experts would argue that even when this sort of thinking is Ingrained it is very conscious).

Or he knows exactly what he’s doing and constantly seeks to shift blame/ responsibility elsewhere.

Both (whether conscious or not) are gaslighting in my book. The minute anyone takes an event/ events and changes the facts and presents their reality as facts? It’s gaslighting.

It’s a core hallmark of narcissists/ abusers.

Is there any other odd behaviours or outside of this is he quite thoughtful/ considerate/ empathetic?

I'm having to think hard about those! So the answer is not a definite 'no, not at all'. I'd say 'quite' rather than 'very'.

@sassbott

Hold on, so which is it?

Poor memory?
Or being insecure and not wanting to admit he’s wrong. (Which has nothing to do with memory)

The two are completely different.

It can be both you know. Poor memory and being denial about it and thus insecure about whether your partner is gaslighting you so you stick to your guns even though your memory is what has failed, but you can’t see that because you’re in denial.

It is also worth pointing out that everyone remembers the same events differently. You see this all the time in eye witness accounts of murders or accidents. Every witness will remember it slightly differently.

So even with perfect memories it is entirely possible for a couple to remember events that happened or things said between them differently. So some allowance should be made in both sides to simply acknowledge that the other “doesn’t remember it quite like that”

You don't need to give it your problem a specific label for it to be legitimate.

"Gaslighting" is a term that describes a particular type of psychological manipulation and it is intentional.

The problem you have might not be gaslighting per se - as you describe it it's your husband's stubbornness and insecurity, and poor methods of argument and disagreement. The effect this has on you is still the same, it's still a problem, it's still something he needs to address, and if he doesn't then it's still something you can walk away from.

Does he ever misremember so that he thinks he's to blame and not you?

Merry - I must admit I do this myself

My DH and I share a car and generally keep both keys in a dish in the kitchen (although if DH has his in his pocket he may end up putting it in his coins bowl by the bed). We have an allocated one each (one is scratched so you can tell them apart)

I'm forever leaving mine in a bag, by the shelf at front door, in my coat pocket - and then being sure when it's not in the dish when I next need it that DH must have got it and taken my key. He never has - I always end up realising it was me who has mislaid it and find it in my pocket, etc.

But I really hope I'm not gaslighting - I'm just forgetful and always misplacing my blooming keys.

But I do tend to say, "oh no, found them, sorry about that" to DH - so that may be the difference. Some people are never very good at saying sorry.

Have you spoken to him about it?

It doesn't matter if it was intentional or not. My last partner was abusive in a large part because he couldn't bear feeling any shame at all so he projected it all on to me. I don't think it was intentional but he saw the consequences for me, I told him how upset it made me and he continued to do it. Once you've called someone out on their behaviour and they fail to make accomodations or own their behaviour it's as good as deliberate.

So what does he do after he figure out that it was his fault? Does he say sorry or something like that?

Did you try not to get caught with this his thing? For example if he is accusing you in lost key, if you would say "no, i didnt" and finish conversation there, what would he do?

Also if he is saying some things and then saying it never happen, try to record your conversation if you will be arguing and you'll see))

And I dont think that its an issue of bad memory. If that would be the case, he would be forgetting everything and he would know that. So it wouldnt be like "you've lost the key!", it would be "I dont remember where I left the key, did you see it?".

Of course it's intentional. He's choosing to do it in the heat of a row, to prove you wrong or bad. That's a blatantly deliberate, manipulative intent.

I think what you might mean (correct me if I'm misinterpreting you!) is that it's not strategic. It's not part of a well-honed plan to achieve world, or marital, domination, or to squash your soul into nothingness.

A lightbulb moment I experienced here on MN was the realisation that almost all abuse (and crime and most bad behaviour) is not strategic, tactical, coherent, or planned at all. It is just a lot of inadequate, sometimes damaged people, lashing out.

A person who cannot remember would say 'I can't remember'. A person who misremembers, or makes a mistake, would say sorry.

Also, an apology by itself isn't worth much, Some gesture of recompense is usually required. Someone merely acknowledging that they behaved badly earlier is just stating a fact. You were there too, you already knew that fact. What is required is a sincere apology - one that indicates that they care how you feel and are not just going through the motions - and some offer of recompense.

I can say from experience that 'I'll try not to do it again' is pure, lazy, self-absorbed, don't actually give a shit about the impact on you, only on my chances of keeping you, shite. That kind of shit turns you into their mother and them into an ickle child, trying its best to learn to behave nicely. Bleurghhh.

@CorsicaDreaming If you often do this and know you often do this, then why do you keep assuming it’s your DH’s fault?

Does he do it to others OP, or just to you? How is the rest of your life together and specifically your relationship?

[quote Sweetlikejollof]@CorsicaDreaming If you often do this and know you often do this, then why do you keep assuming it’s your DH’s fault?[/quote]

That is a question I often ask myself...

You are excusing him. Of course it's on purpose.

He might not know that what he is doing is crazy-making gaslighting, but he knows he lies/misremembers to avoid responsibility at your expense. Which is a crappy thing to do.

Tbh I suspect a lot of abusive behaviours are not recognised by the perpetrators, they simply see it as a way of life that works for them. Which is why their denials have us doubting ourselves.