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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Is it gaslighting if it's not on purpose?

56 replies

MerryMarigold · 13/12/2021 19:16

For years 'D'h has made me feel like I'm going mad as he'll deny he's said certain things, usually in the heat of a row, or accused me of things such as losing a key when later he'll find it somewhere he put it (this type of thing happens quite a lot). It does make me feel like I'm going mad, and at times I wonder if he's emotionally abusive, but I think he just
does it because he's too insecure to admit he's done or said certain things (or forgotten, as in the case of the key), or because he genuinely believes in that moment in time that he didn't say something or mean something which I believe he did say or mean. I mean it's not intentionally to manipulate me, but it does really get to me to the point I often feel like I wish we could record conversations because what I remember and what he remembers can be so different. We've been married for 18 years and it's really got to me over the years, increasingly so I think. I don't think he does it on purpose but is it still abuse or just really bad communication?

OP posts:
CactusLemonSpice · 14/12/2021 11:05

Of course it counts. I don't know what it's like to be inside the mind of someone who gaslights people, but I doubt they all go, 'ooh I'll say it wasn't me that'll confuse her, make her doubt her own mind and she shall be in my thrall!!!' There is probably an element of denial or mental gymnastics to a lot of it.

IgneousRock · 14/12/2021 11:09

It may not be on purpose exactly, but it definitely sounds like more than just a poor memory. It demonstrates someone who is unwilling to ever admit that he's wrong or apologise. Which is not an attractive character trait!

lottiegarbanzo · 14/12/2021 11:11

Simply, his desire never to accept responsibility (blame as he may see it) for getting things a bit wrong, is more important to him than truth or your feelings. You are his emotional punchbag. He attacks you when he feels frustrated with himself and does not like that feeling.

lottiegarbanzo · 14/12/2021 11:20

My suggestion to him and to @CorsicaDreaming is to imagine that you live alone. You are responsible for everything in your household. Now how do you deal with things?

I actually find that if I think about being responsible for everything myself, I find myself feeling much calmer and more rational about doing and finding things. Whereas if there is another person in the household who could help with things, or be responsible, then it's very easy to project a whole lot of assumptions and frustration about them and our domestic set-up, onto any particular situation.

An example is, that if there's a big spider in the bath and I'm alone, I just deal with it, keep myself calm, think practically, remove it. If there's another adult in the house, I actually feel more scared, as part of some sort of performance of expected roles, or as part of a 'plea for help'. Both odd and interesting, I think!

CactusLemonSpice · 14/12/2021 11:24

@lottiegarbanzo

Simply, his desire never to accept responsibility (blame as he may see it) for getting things a bit wrong, is more important to him than truth or your feelings. You are his emotional punchbag. He attacks you when he feels frustrated with himself and does not like that feeling.
This.
RB68 · 14/12/2021 11:33

First couple of times forgivable, after that no as you are aware of the issue.

I have a husband like this though, the difference is that I don't believe him. My common phrases are
DO you want me to look with eyes that see?
Are you sure, has x fallen down the back
When do you last remember using it, what coat did you have on, what did you do after that etc

We work together too and he is terrible for not telling me important things - he feeds me a load of dross and rants about work related things but then will omit big things that are important - I call him out every time

e.g. not work related but we went to a lunch event yesterday and as we were upstairs getting ready I said to him, I am going to have to wear the uncomfortable shoes which is a nuisance, YOU WILL HAVE TO DROP ME AT THE DOOR AND GO AND PARK

that is the bit he just did not hear but I definitely said it as I knew he would wibble about it

We are driving their and he heads for the car park which is about 1/2 mile from the event. In normal circumstances with decent shoes on no issue, I say where are you going - he goes off on one. He went off on one as he knew he should be dropping me at the location and he forgot but rather than admit that he starts saying you didn't say blah blah blah. I just looked at him and he says - hmmm ok that makes sense but I swear you didn't say that. I just said, what you mean is you didn't hear that!

Minor thing but very frustrating and he is worse when he is nervous and I now after 20 yrs understand that but doesn't mean I will put up with his shit and it does sometimes make me more nervous or anxious about events I am nervous about. And it was a big event for me but I try not to let it spoil things for me

Sweetlikejollof · 14/12/2021 12:02

@RB68 I hope the event went well. Whatever else was going on, it’s incredibly thoughtless of him to go off on one before something that was a big deal for you…particularly over something so petty. I’m sorry, but your husband sounds like an arse.

Have you discussed the fact that he does this? What’s his response?

RB68 · 14/12/2021 12:10

Oh he an arse sometimes (aren't we all) and he will admit it, I know yesterday was about not really wanting to go to the event and he has this sabotaging thing he does. I have learnt to pull him up, point it out, and move on

Sweetlikejollof · 14/12/2021 13:15

@RB68 I’m not really talking about pulling him up at the time about specific incidents. What you’ve described is a pattern of behaviour. I’m asking if you’ve discussed the pattern of behaviour.

FrancescaContini · 14/12/2021 13:19

It’s either deliberate which means he’s abusive, or he can’t be bothered to remember what you’ve said, in which case he’s disrespectful.

Either way, he doesn’t sound like a good partner.

RB68 · 14/12/2021 13:20

yes thanks. Half the time he doesn't realise he is doing it but one look reminds him. It is learnt behaviour from his mother who was abused to the extreme in her childhood and I see that reflected so its known issues. We don't all have to be perfect, he tries hard not to and I see that it happens alot less these days and he sometimes even self corrects so he is prepared to back off and apologise. Please don't worry about it. I am what even he calls feisty about it all.

Sweetlikejollof · 14/12/2021 13:34

@RB68 I’m not saying that anyone has to be perfect. You’ve described a problematic pattern of behaviour and I’m asking if you’ve discussed the fact that he does this (not specific incidents, the overall pattern of behaviour and how it makes you feel) with him and how he’s responded.

If you currently don’t want to discuss the matter with me, then that’s fine.

seventyminutes · 14/12/2021 13:39

It certainly depends on whether he does it on purpose or not. However... it also matters whether he apologises or makes amends or not for making you feel bad etc when he's discovered.

I'm so so so bad with my memory to the point I will genuinely believe I haven't done something and think it must be the other person but when I'm proved it was my memory at fault I admit to it and make amends if I've offended or upset someone (if that even happens at all). If he's going around still keeping you down even after proof of blame on himself you have another issue there

lottiegarbanzo · 14/12/2021 14:00

Why don't people with bad memories adopt the phrase and concept 'I don't know' or 'I'm not sure, I can't quite remember' or 'well my memory's shocking but I'd imagined...' ?

Why would a person who knows their memory is bad, pretend to themselves that they know for certain what happened at some point in the past? Knowing and having a poor memory are opposing concepts.

Why wouldn't you, why don't you, adopt 'I don't know' and 'I'm not sure' to fill the gap between those concepts?

Why would you, why do you, adopt 'make up any old rubbish / insert other event / insert what you imagine might have happened / insert what you wish had happened, to fill a space, then adopt / believe this insertion yourself'? (How can you not be aware that you're making it up, or deliberately inserting it? Why would you choose to do that?).

Are you just nor very interested in truth? More in storytelling? Wish-fulfillment?

I really am curious, as I know a few people who do this habitually (all the time). That is, say, with shocked look upon face 'but I thought....' when what they mean is 'I really have no idea but had imagined / speculated / surmised that one possible explanation was...'

Basically, instead of acknowledging 'I don't know', or 'I'm assuming but I know I'm assuming, so could be wrong', they make shit up to fill gaps in their knowledge, then believe their own shit.

Why are these people's brains unable to accommodate uncertainty? Why are they not aware that they are merely hypothesising, to fill that uncertainty gap?

That's a different thing from deliberately lying to other people.

Sweetlikejollof · 14/12/2021 14:21

@lottiegarbanzo

Why don't people with bad memories adopt the phrase and concept 'I don't know' or 'I'm not sure, I can't quite remember' or 'well my memory's shocking but I'd imagined...' ?

Why would a person who knows their memory is bad, pretend to themselves that they know for certain what happened at some point in the past? Knowing and having a poor memory are opposing concepts.

Why wouldn't you, why don't you, adopt 'I don't know' and 'I'm not sure' to fill the gap between those concepts?

Why would you, why do you, adopt 'make up any old rubbish / insert other event / insert what you imagine might have happened / insert what you wish had happened, to fill a space, then adopt / believe this insertion yourself'? (How can you not be aware that you're making it up, or deliberately inserting it? Why would you choose to do that?).

Are you just nor very interested in truth? More in storytelling? Wish-fulfillment?

I really am curious, as I know a few people who do this habitually (all the time). That is, say, with shocked look upon face 'but I thought....' when what they mean is 'I really have no idea but had imagined / speculated / surmised that one possible explanation was...'

Basically, instead of acknowledging 'I don't know', or 'I'm assuming but I know I'm assuming, so could be wrong', they make shit up to fill gaps in their knowledge, then believe their own shit.

Why are these people's brains unable to accommodate uncertainty? Why are they not aware that they are merely hypothesising, to fill that uncertainty gap?

That's a different thing from deliberately lying to other people.

Basically what I’m wondering. I honestly don’t get it. It would be great if someone could explain the cognitive process here - particularly as it happens over and over again. I’m having some difficulty grasping such an inability to learn.
RB68 · 14/12/2021 15:18

@Sweetlikejollof this sort of change takes time its not a one and done situation. Yes we have discussed it, yes I challenge it, yes I feel safe to do so, yes he understands the impact but we are talking years of ingrained behaviour.

Sweetlikejollof · 14/12/2021 15:38

@RB68 I never said it was a one and done situation or that it didn’t take time. No mention was made of feeling safe and I specifically said that I wasn’t talking about challenging it.

I asked if you’d discussed it and what his response was, that’s literally all. It was a very straightforward question, and I don’t really understand your reaction. Or why you’re responding to things I haven’t asked or said (particularly those ‘yeses’).

Original poster
MerryMarigold · 14/12/2021 16:01

@Sweetlikejollof, it's a bit deeper when it's fine unconsciously. As a PP said it's "because he couldn't bear feeling any shame at all." This doesn't make it easier to live with, perhaps harder as I also have some compassion for the kind of life he had to make him this way. I think I need to be more like RB68 and call him out with more certainty. In terms of apologies, he will apologise in a slightly bemused way when I produce actual 'proof'. Otherwise it tends to be 'well that's your opinion vs. mine' which is frustrating. I don't feel safe at all in arguments or discussions as I don't know how he's going to twist things round/ deny etc.

OP posts:
lottiegarbanzo · 14/12/2021 16:07

The thing is, you're not his therapist and you're not his mum. You don't have a duty to look after him in the way they would / did. He's not your patient.

He is the man who has presented himself to you as a suitable, adult partner for you, another, equal adult.

He's not acting like one.

lottiegarbanzo · 14/12/2021 16:10

And, never feel sorry for anyone who has power over you. You can't afford it.

You really need a big discussion with him about the issue as a whole - and the unacceptability of his behaviour.

The point isn't for you to understand him better. It's for him to stop this shitty behaviour. And to start acting like a decent, supportive, loving, adult partner who loves and supports you.

lottiegarbanzo · 14/12/2021 17:38

Also, you're not obliged to argue with him. You could decline to do so.

humbugaboo · 14/12/2021 20:40

This is my husband and I absolutely detest living with him. He constantly lies about things and denies things and it’s due to being raised very very very poorly. And as sad as that is, it’s not my problem. I now no longer believe a single word that comes out of his mouth about anything, and I don’t even bother asking him questions because I can’t believe what he says e.g I can ask him to get me a specific cough medicine, he can bring home a different one and when I ask why he didn’t get the one I asked for, he will say I never said a specific one. This initially used to have me thinking I was crazy, then I started texting him everything so I had evidence and he would still lie, so then I knew it was him. You do not want to live with someone like this. Don’t trust a single word he says and have confidence in yourself!

Tal45 · 14/12/2021 20:57

Gas lighting, lying, never being to blame for anything - I agree with a pp that he's ticking boxes for narcissism there.

Original poster
MerryMarigold · 14/12/2021 21:06

@lottiegarbanzo

Also, you're not obliged to argue with him. You could decline to do so.
I love that. This is true.
OP posts:
IamGusFring · 14/12/2021 21:23

[quote RB68]@Sweetlikejollof this sort of change takes time its not a one and done situation. Yes we have discussed it, yes I challenge it, yes I feel safe to do so, yes he understands the impact but we are talking years of ingrained behaviour.[/quote]
I know exactly where you are coming from and I agree that it is very difficult when things are ingrained from childhood . My H was brought up by an abusive mother and his first port of call is an excuse or saying he wasn't going to do something or total frustration with the situation which can be a very simple thing . He spent years trying to pre empt and not get beatings for things he didn't do . He knows and feels it and tries to control it but the words spill out on many occasions . He will apologise profusely but I have only recently asked him to work harder on preventing this . It most certainly not an "inability to learn " and that just shows a person has no concept of what you are talking about . We can but try and forsee and prevent these incidents .