"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

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This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

Finally caught up properly after 3 hours or thereabouts... I am afraid I didn't have time to make notes this time, there have been so many useful and interesting insights..

TMSB, liked the clunky suit of armour analogy, I think I am going to have to take mine off at work and wear something more appropriate!

And well done to you, Oneplusone, Smithfield and everyone who is making a stand in some way. Smithfield, do you have a BT phone? They do caller ID, I find it invaluable and rarely pick up the phone at all actually unless I know who is calling and actually want to speak to them at that moment. Getting very excited for you...

Danae - lovely hearing about your relationship with your DD, that's how I feel about DS1 he's perfect in my eyes.

Oneplus - Please do CAT me if you want re the counsellor. From what you said I may not be too far away. I think it does help to have someone processing all these emotions with you and holding your hand along the way.

NAB, Ican't think of anyone on this thread so far who has been in care, but as I think Ally said, we all feel alone in RL with our situation and I think each of our histories is unique, yet we are all finding common ground in the lack of respect for us and our boundaries that you describe from your MIL and BM. I acn relate to a lot of what you say, and even though my mother was present and claimed to be a loving mother I am astounded that she ie spent so much energy on making sure I ate nutritous food or learned to play the piano, and yet seemed to have so little concern as to my emotional health.

Mampam and Sabaidii - your mothers sound like classic borderline personality candidates and I would strongly recommend the book "I Hate you dont leave me: Understanding Borderline Personality" - can never remember the author but that should be enough to find it on Amazon.

Avenap, how awful. But, the most scary thing is, ECT is still carried out today in certain conditions. I have always been astounded by the thought of it - it seems so barbaric and infringing on a persons human rights.

Sakura, I wonder why you feel this fear that you are suddenly going to "change"? I doubt that anyone with your insight could become the sort of person your mother is. It sounds like a childhood fear - maybe you attributed your mother's behaviour to some external force? I know PND can have far reaching affects, like the menopause, but isn't it more likely that the person who has suche an extreme reaction has some underlying problem - and also as we have all said, the fact that we have enough insight to question our parenting and whether it is good enough is an indicator that we are not going to turn into our mothers...

Sorry if I have not acknowledged anyone, there are just so many of us on here now it is a job keeping up.

Smithfield, why not just be the bad daughter, don't forget it's the only way off the drama triangle...

SMithfield- yes exactly- I need one parent . Just don't think I'm ready to go through this again with my dad, and besides, his place is a rendez vous spot for my brothers and one of them lives with him. I need my brothers to see my DD- she's 1 now, and they are crazy about her even though they only saw her briefly at 3 months.

Pages- you are brave to have pushed out of your comfort zone- it is something I have never been able to do. I can handle "passive" things like teaching, or writing, but I would have loved to have been involved in business, or something that you need a backbone for. You have not let your step dad win and become a meek mouse. Hope it sorts itself out for you at work- you're a braver woman than me.

Regarding my father, I think I possibly could remain in "adult" if I met him outside in a cafe somewhere- def can't be alone with him, for his own safety! But nothing will change-for him to admit anything would mean a complete overhaul of his life, including his childhood. He has a slight misogynistic streak and I've analyzed it and connected it to the way his mother treats him. His father was a raging drunk- I was about 9 when he died. One piece of the jigsaw that my child's brain kept with me until now was something my father and his mother said about the funeral:
"There were lots of people there, weren't there"
"Oooh, yes, he was very highly thought of"
"Yes, everybody came"

As an 9 year old, I couldn't have understood the significance of this, but my brain stored it for the future--they needed lots of people to have been at the funeral to keep up the show that my drunkard (violent?) grandfather was a normal guy. Look- he was a good family man because see how many people came to the funeral!
No silent, humble grief at losing someone they both loved- nope, my father and grandmother were preoccupied with who had shown up. Who cares? So what if no-one else came? DOes it matter?- only if you are living a lie that the man was a nice guy, I suppose.
So, yeah, there is no way my father is ever going to delve into his childhood- he has so much at stake. I asked him last time if his father had been violent, and he said he didn't know by way of brushing me off.

Am having problems with DH too at the moment (sorry for whining!). He has issues (of course- MIL is his mother) but is completely unwilling to face them. I have issues and perhaps borderline traits- we had an argument tonight and he was saying my version of reality didn't exist and it hit a nerve because thats what my father would do. I just couldn'T accept that "my reality" wasn't real and he wouldn't let it go. I just needed a hug and for him to say "I see where you're coming from" I feel as though if I was in a relationship with a "normal" guy, my healing process would be quicker, but because I'm in a relationship with someone who may have even bigger issues than me and is not dealing with them, it makes my healing process very difficult ( I had my realisation at the time of my wedding, so I was attracted to DH when I was way down in a pit)

Just saw the last few posts. Yes smithfield, the only way out of the triangle is to be the persecutor- whatever you do won't be good enough so its quite liberating. Be good-get bad reaction. So might as well do as you like and get the same reaction (okay, maybe a slightly worse but either way you won't get unconditional love)

Pages, I feel like I might change because I'm not sure at all about how sane or unhinged I am! Like when I have an argument with DH, I'm constantly wondering if its because I have been permanently damaged in the past and perhaps if I wasn't like this- would we even be having this argument now and that maybe I am mad after all! HOw can I tell?
But on the other hand I think, no, I've always blamed myself for problems, so maybe this time it is acutally someone elses fault (like when it was MIL's fault- she really was being bad but I couldn't tell if it was me or if it was her who was in the wrong. Writing down her behaviour on mumsnet helped me see that she was barking.)
SO this kind of thing makes me a little nervous about which way I could go in the future.

Hi again

Do you find that when certain things happen with your children, or they say something or look a certain way, that you find yourself thinking they are having the same thoughts you had as a child? This is what I find the hardest to manage as they are not me, having my life.

Nab, I think we all do that. It's just tuning in to them and having empathy. You obviously recognise that they are individuals with their own personality, though.

Sakura, sorry you are going through a bad time with DH. If you heard some of the rows that I have had with DH over the years you would all think that I am totally unhinged, and he quite irratinal and unreasonable at times too. And I know that many of the problems have been because of our pasts, mine in particular. But that doesn't mean that both DH and I aren't normal rational people as well. Maybe you should see the problem less as either yours or DH's fault but a product of both of your personalities (and pasts) and an opportunity to grow and learn from it? That's how I treat all conflict in my life these days, even if I am like a crazy woman at times!

How do I stop doing it and treat the kids normally? I am sure I handle some things wrongly because of my experience and also I feel like any instincts have been lost along the way as I am so scared of doing the wrong thing and giving them a crap childhood.

I think one of the important skills that we learn are not to take things to seriously, if we muck up (which we all do) is to let ourselves off and not to spend ages over analysing it and just get on with the next challenge.

Nab- What Kaz is saying is key. I think a lot of us on here tend to be very hard on ourselves in every aspect of our lives.
Work, children, relationships.
It's because of the guilt and shame that we had lumped on us as kids. I.e whatever issues our parents had we took the blame for those issues not them.
So for example in your case your mother abandoned you, and as a child ,(even if on a subconcious level of which you are unaware)
you would have believed it was your fault.
As kids we 'need' to do this to survive, because the prospect of our parents being as bad as they actually are would probably destroy us.
As adults its not such a great tool because effectively it leaves us feeling guilt and shame at not being to get things right.
But we are human and we cant get 'everything' right.
Try and focus on the good/positive things you do for your children. YOU ARE a good mother, you just need to remind yourself of that fact.

My stock phrase at the moment is "I am about to lose my temper" - said in a slightly louder voice. It lets them know I am serious and they need to comply but somehow it isn't actually losing my temper and reminds me that I have a choice. Often if that doesn't work I have the emotional strength to walk away as opposed to just shouting at them

TBH I must be weird as I have never felt it was my fault any of the things that happened to me. I know it was the adults who couldn't/wouldn't step up and do the right thing. I certainly can't be blamed for being a girl and not a boy!

It is my birthday tmw. No doubt my F won't remember and my M will be self pitying all day.

Nab- happy birthday for tommorrow. Isnt it funny how our mothers find the times that are supposed to be special to 'us' to times of self pity for them!

I think that can only be a good thing that you dont carry that blame. Do you feel you 'did' have some positive adults in your life. Is there anyone in particular that had a good influence/impact on you?

Kaz- Im finding I am so much more patient with ds recently, and am starting to feel really connected with him in a way I've not felt before.

Its difficult to explain but I think, (without realising it) Ive been a bit distant I find or have found it difficult to get down and play on his level.
Recently that seems to be changing and I find myself just in the moment and really just enjoying him and his company.
It was quite a difficult realisation for me to have actually as again I think have I caused an issue for him, did he feel an emotional distance. But I will be a worse mum again foe trawling through all that.
I think I just have to let it go and revel in our new stronger bond.
Im sure there will be plenty more realisations to come to feel guilty about also

We do all tend to blame ourselves by default- I think this is also generally a very female way of coping with problems. What smithfield says is true- that we need to be lighter on ourselves (easier said than done, of course), but I am trying to do this. If I let DD watch TV all morning while I mumsnet I try not to be filled with self-loathing. If I don't clean up all day, I ignore the voice in my head telling me I'm a sloven. The same with regard to parenting- I think any mother who questions herself is a great mum, I really do. But we need to balance that out with the fact that we are not completely responsible for neither our children's happiness, nor our parents' happiness. But regarding our children, I think the main thing is just a willingness to say sorry if we've been wrong and to keep our tempers under control, and to take stock of how we're doing every now and then.

sakura- So true.

I also read some really useful stuff recently and the overall message was about 'giving a child voice'.

Its letting them show/teach you 'who' they are.

I suppose that's the opposite of what our parents would have done. They imposed themselves/their beliefs/fears/wants desires on to us. So, in effect, they bacame our voices whilst our own voices were silenced. That's why it's often their voices we carry round inside our heads now.

And sakura, just wondered if you'd made any decisions yet regarding your father?
How are things now with DH?

DH came back on saturday from an eight day intensive theraupatic process called the hoffman process.
www.hoffmaninstitute.co.uk

I was going to do it myself but because of my termination they thought that I should wait 6 months before doing it. DH became interested and we decided that he would really benefit as he had lots of blockages related to his childhood.

It is a very surreal experience, he has come back the same man but different. He is calmer, more communicative, more tactile, more loving and better with the boys and me. When once being around him was not always a good experience I find his company easy.

As he explained to me he was a dependent, needy and suffocated people. Of course every dependent needs a faciliator - I have always had relationships where I was "saving" the other person. Now DH has gone off and is no longer dependent on me, it totally changes the dynamic of our relationship. I feel that I am no longer good enough and will have to become a different person to be good enough for the new DH.

The plan is that later this year I will do the process, now I feel a bit scared of getting rid of all the negative patterns and thoughts as they almost define the person that I am.

Hi All,
By way of introduction, here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/7/474319?ts=1202739374712 is the thread I started last week, in case the link doesn't work (I've not done it before) its in relationships headed "Should I have no further contact with my mum".

I don't think this issue is going to go away and can see me needing the support of like-minded folk who have been through similar situations themselves and will hopefully be able to help me - goodness knows I think I'll need it

Hi Mikafan - just read your thread and welcome to the toxic parents thread. Like you I didn't feel that it was that bad.

I can't think of anyone positive I have ever had in my life until I met my hubby.

Thanks kaz33. I suppose what we go through just becomes the norm. It wasn't until I saw my MIL with my DH's DS that I saw what a mother/daughter relationship could be like and although I've only been married for 3 years my MIL is more of a mother to me than my mum ever has or will be

I just want to be fixed. I want to someday feel like I'm not faking it. To be really happy and mean it. To know that she has no hold over me ever. To stop feeling pity for her. To say 'no'. To love her and like her at the same time. To hear 'sorry' and know she means it. To hear 'sorry' and know that 'but I'm a recovering alcoholic' is not the next sentence. To stand up for myself, my partner and my child without being afraid. To let go of guilt that is not mine. To believe that as a child I couldn't have been responsible for what happened or how things worked out. I search in my head for the little girl I was. I want to find her and tell her it's ok, not to be afraid, not to be worried. I want to stop feeling like I caused my mother to be the way she was because I was bold, I was a child. I want to stop feeling selfish and ungrateful because really it wasn't as bad as some peoples childhoods. I want to stop answering her calls and pandering to her because I don't want to fall out or have her come over and start shouting. I want her to stop asking me accusingly if somethings wrong when all I can mutter is 'no, I'm just tired' because any mention that she was in any way accountable for her actions would lead to all out war. I want to be the thirty year old woman that I am and not the scared child that I feel...

...but most of all I want to be less like her, that's terrifying.

Sorry for butting in. I'll be buying 'Toxic Parents'.

Best wishes to you all.

bloody mums have got a lot to answer for

Welcome abroller and Mikafan. You are not butting in at all abroller. I think Toxic parents will help.

Sorry to hijack this thread. I did post earlier but it became too long for me to follow it. I think I would like work through the issues I have with my mother. It's too long to post here but I was wondering if anyone could recommend any good self help books? I have read "Toxic Parents", Susan Forward, which did help alot but I would like one for emotional, physical neglect? I just want to work through my anger and "get over it".

Abroller- Hi, your post reflected a lot of how I feel too. Its a shame but half the battle is realising some of the things you 'would like to happen' aren't going to because it would mean your mum changing. The rest however is within your grasp I promise.
Please keep posting if you feel up to it. It really does help to get your thoughts out.

Jerryernie- I read your first post and you mentioned you think your mother may have a personality disorder.
Here is a good link for you to start. It lists personality disorders and you may be able to identify a type with your mother and then start your reading around that. That's what I did and found it very useful. A lot of mothers appear to fall into the borderline or narcistic category. Mines the later so I can recommend many books in that area, whilst others can help with books on borderline.
I find it can help if you share your story on here too. Firstly its quite cathartic (suprsingly so) but also it allows others to feedback. But of course you dont have to do that. Use the board whichever way 'you' need to.

Ally- have ordered caller ID through BT so thanks for that.

Sakura- have a lovely trip, if you haven't already gone!

Pages- How are you doing? I had a look too on that reparenting website, it has got some really good stuff on there.
Let us know how you are doing.

Toomany- hope your ok? Hope you are not quiet because you are queue jumping

OOPs- hello Mikafan! Glad you made it over ((((hug))))- How are you feeling at the moment? Strong or guilts creeping in? Try and remember feeling guilty is normal, And OK.