"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

[Pages]

This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

oneplusone- how did your talk go last night?
Let us know how you are today?
I also know how it feels to have issues with MIL's. I think I posted on here a while back how I felt like I was drawn to Dh's family because I so desperately needed an alternative to my own. Needless to say I found his family incredibly controlling, and I have had to stand up to both FIL and MIL on seperate occassions. Im glad I did otherwise I think In would have been entirely taken over by them and so would my family have been.
As for DH, well he felt stuck in the middle, but like sakura I let him know in no uncertain term that me and ds had to come 1st with him- absolutely no exceptions....or I would leave.
It was a scary prospect but you do gain your strength at those times from your dc's. It seems when it is just us alone we do not give ourselves enough kudos as people to stand tall, then once we are mothers we find our innner strength.

Danae- Thankyou- I think Im in a good part of the spiral atm. I do think allowing myself to let go of the emotion (had a good old fashioned sob) helps.

Congratulations on your feelings over your capabilities as a mum. You need to be kinder to yourself on that score. Says me
I know I struggle with this myself. I feel it gets tougher as they grow. The more they test the boundaries the more there is a need to discipline or set boundaries but I constantly feel paralised by not being able to boundary set, because I am lacking confidence in my own instincts as a mother, and I am currently (this has come about recently) afraid to instil any form of dsicipline at all.

Its like Ive had a template and partially used it, but now I have had to wipe the whole template and start from scratch. I guess Im trying to eradicate any sense of my mother in my parenting.

I had the same messages instilled as you did, when ds was a baby my mother was Breathing down my neck. Hissing about me spoiling him if i went to pick him up, or that I was 'overfeeding him' if I tried to breastfeed him outside of her 4 hourly stipulations!

Its funny but I got comments from everyone about what a content baby he was, and I never once gave myself credit. Id say 'yes' aren't I lucky he's got a lovely nature. It took Dh to point out 'No' he's content because he knows he is loved and you respect and respond to his needs.
Like you say though Danae, we don't have confidence at our core...hard for us to take credit for anything isnt it! Currently ds has taken to sobbing when he has to go t nursery 2 days a week. Our routine has changed as I am now on mat leave. Immediately I think, I know what am I doing wrong have I damaged his confidence?? I feel a lot of anger towards my mother, for failing to allow me to have a basic sense of self all children deserve to have!

Pages- The pictures...my my.. did our mothers go to the same school of Baldrick! lol.
Your mother too is cunning as a fox.
' Oh I was such a bad mother, was I Pages... but just look what a good nurturing mummy I was...see I have photographic eveidence, right here!

I was thinking about pictures myself recently before reading your post and I could only think of 1 single photo which had me and my mother in it together. In the picture I am sat on her lap, about 3 years old and I am pulling a face and look like all I want to do is wriggle off again! it was taken by a photographer so no doubt my mother was trying to pull off perfect mummy pose and I wasn't buying any of it.

When I don't speak to her, she runs after my riends and tells them i'm not speaking to her. She throws a scene, crying, etc. She is a drama queen. when I was 20, she kicked me in the stomach and i landed on the floor. I grabbed my bag and left. She then called all of my friends, (sobbing loudly) and asked them why i didn't want to talk to her. They felt sorry for her and were on her side. If they had seen my stomach, they would have believed me.

I don't know how to get her off of me legally. She's such a sneaky cow, I'm afraid even if I did it might backfire.

at this point I don't want anything to do with her. I am trying to find some counseling (if possible online and free). I feel miserable right now and already have a rough time with life in general here.

Hi. Just wanted to let you know how my talk with DH went last night. It was surreal. I basically told him exactly what i thought of his mum and all the nasty, vindictive, hurtful things she had said to me. I didn't mince my words at all, i told it exactly like it was. I even told him that as far as i was concerned his mum was toxic in the same way as my parents. I fully expected him to not even let me finish and to totally defend his mum and brush all my feelings aside just as he has been doing all these years.

But, instead, (this is the surreal bit) he actually agreed with me that she had been hurtful and nasty by her comments, that she ought to apologise to me and that he would speak to her and get her to apologise for something she said to me on christmas day that really upset me.

Smithfield i also told him that in future his loyalties should lie 110% with me and not with his mum or anyone else and if, even once, he lets me down, our marriage is over. And, like you smithfield, this whole process in relation to my parents has given me so much internal strength and confidence that i simply did not have before and because of that i feel I can split with DH and that i will not only survive but thrive on my own with the DC's. And me feeling like that would have been unthinkable only a year ago.

Something has shifted in my relationship with DH. A year ago i know he wouldn't have tolerated me criticising his mum in the way i did last night, but yesterday he simply agreed with everything i asked of him. However, i know him too well and i have no expections until he actually follows through in what he says. It's all too easy for him to say he will stand up to his mum if she says anything nasty to me in the future whilst sitting at home on the sofa with me. I know the real test for him will come when it actually happens and i know it will as my MIL has a vicious tongue (after all it's poison that runs through her veins) and sooner or later she will say something nasty and then we'll see what DH does. It's MIL's birthday coming up and I'm going to make it clear to DH that there are no exceptions to my rule; if MIL says something nasty to me on her birthday i will still expect him to pick her up on it and for her to apologise to me.

I still have a few things i want to discuss with DH and i really want to ask him why all of sudden he is willing to stand up for me when until now he has always sided with his mum.

Like you smithfield i feel my parents bear so much responsibilty for the fact that only now, after all these years do i feel able to stand up for myself and tell people that i will not be treated like i was worth nothing, that my feelings are important, and that i deserve to be treated with respect. I suddenly have self esteem, self confidence, self respect and i didn't even know i was lacking all these things all this time. And what a difference they make! I feel so much better today, and it is thanks to all of you for validating my feelings and supporting me. Thank you.

Go oneplusone! That's what I say anyway . Why is dh willing to stand up for you now? Probably because he can sense something within you has shifted.
Before DH I was in a dreadful relationship, and my partner then (cant even bare to entitle him DP!) literally walke 'ALL OVER' me, but I have to take responsibility here because I let him.
Yes I would explode, berate him, have 'talks' where I would say if this continues it will be over. He never took any notice because I wasnt serious and he knew it. Paralysed by insecurities I was never going to leave him (although eventually I did, but it took everything in me).
If however I'd had conviction behind any of my words back then Im sure he would have sensed it, instead he sensed weakness and an inability to follow through. It put him in a position of power.
Im not comparing this experience with your in any way, because trust me, the man I speak of eas really quite vile and can not be compared with your dh.
What I am saying is he knows you mean it, because you actually do!
Way to go oneplusone, this shows how far you have come.

sabaidii- No wonder you are having a bad time generally, all your energy is being sapped by this woman. She is sabotaging your life at every opportunity.

I think counselling is going to be a great support for you. Also there are plenty of books that might help support you too.
Let me know if you want some suggestions.

Im sure one of the others will be along soon to help with some advice, but for my part I think you should see this as a turning point, Take a deep breath and say no more.

If your friends listen to this woman and take her side (and I know this dilemma as my mother has done this with my own family)
then I think you have to question their friendship. Their loyalties should lie with you. Im sure she can be very convincing but I think I would be a tad uneasy if one of my friends mother's called me and tried to manipulate in this way. I would certainly want to hear my friends side of things first.
But this is all part of the process, by standing up to her you will begin to see you are worth more, and that if it comes to it and your friends choose your mother's word over yours, you will have no choice but let those friends go as you 'deserve' their loyalty. Sabaidii dont expect amy less! If these people wont give it to you there are plenty of others that will!
Keep posting

sakura- re my last post to sabaidii- You see your words are truly sinking in aren't they!

smithfield and sakura, when you confronted your MIL's, how did you do it? I mean in terms of was it face to face, or by letter, was your DH present?

My DH has said he will speak to his mother about the nasty things she has said to me but for some reason i just don't trust him and i think i'd rather confront her myself. I'm just wondering how i should go about it. Should i arrange a meeting with just me and her, although i want DH to be present so she can see he supports me and so he can see for himself her toxic parent type reaction to me. (I am sure she will react in a typical toxic parent way).

I don't know why i don't trust DH, but at the end of the day he is 'tied' to his mother and i'm sure he will somehow try to 'spare' her feelings when talking to her on my behalf, whereas i have no interest in thinking about her feelings, only my own, so i guess 'I' will be my best advocate. He is willing to bring up the nasty comment she made to me on christmas day but thinks it's pointless to drag up all the other things she has said over the past 5 or 6 years. From my POV that means she has 'got away' with nearly all of her bitchy, malicious and vindictive comments towards me and I don't think i can allow that. I deserve an apology for each and every time she has said something to hurt/upset/belittle/humiliate me and nothing less will do.

Methinks it's time for another conversation with DH.

Having a crap evening. I m so angry and uspet by what she did yesterday, i just spent 2 hours crying and I don't feel any better. I feel so angry at her attitude toward me. Why does she keep doing this? Why when I tell her its hurting me does she just keep on and pretend she hasn't done anything. I lost a colleague yesterday because f her. It was a person that I liked a lot and who had been very kind to me. I sent an email to both my mother and my colleague saying that I didn't appreciate what was happening and what had been said. I have changed my email address today and I'm refusing to look at the former address. I wrote to my mother last night and told her i was chnging emails and that I would not be contacting her. She probably wrote something nasty back, so I'm trying to think of other things. I know she is going to find something nasty to do though, she always does. I wrote to a counselor, and am hoping they answer shortly.

I have a very tough job and I'm looking for a new one at the moment. If she wasn't in the picture, I might have been able to stick things out but I just can't manage. I'm even more upset because I love my job. She has no respect for the hard work I've done though. Same thing, when I was at school and came top of the class, she called me stupid and said I didn't deserve to be the top of the class and that I was making it up. I scored the highest score in the school on the state math exam (was educated in America for some years) and she had the nerve to tell everyone I m stupid at maths. I can't stand the woman. I don't understand why she does this.

Hi sabaidii, sorry to hear you're going through a difficult and upsetting time. Have you read any of the many books on the subject of abusive families? If not i would highly recommmend that you try and get hold of a couple. Toxic Parents by Susan Forward is excellent and so is Divorcing A Parent by Beverely Engel. Understanding what is going on is half the battle IMHO. x

Sabaidii, could she be jealous of you? I agree she sounds rather disturbed. You did the right thing changing your email address and NOT looking at the old one. You don't need anymore of her personal attacks on you. Sorry about your collegue too, my mother never interfered that directly in my life. Get as angry as you want, you have every right to. Especially when she hurts you more by denying what she has done and the impact on you personally and professionally. I think that is what angered me most, the denials and the 'how could you hurt us this way'. I think they sleepwalked through my childhood if they missed the hurt on my face!! Is there anything else you can do to stop her attacks for now? Change your home phone number? Your mobile number? Get someone to check your mail for you? Or if you see something from her (if she does not disguise her handwriting) to just put it away or burn it? You need to work on protecting yourself and keeping yourself safe. Glad to see your contacting a councellor. Once you shut down most avenues to you, hopefully you should feel more in control and stronger. Really sorry about your business though. Is there any chance of staying? Any way you can make things better at work? Perhaps talk to your collegues? Sorry if you have mentioned this, just been skimming through. Anyway, keep venting on here, your not by yourself with this lots of experience and advice and support to be had!

Pages, your mother must have been speaking to mine!! With that memorial I got, I also recieved about 6/7 A4 pages of lots of photos scanned on...naturally all 'happy' ones. Do you think they have a 'How to act as a Toxic Parent' manual?

"Your little child may try to say there were no/or few happy times. The response to this could be to send as many pictures as you can find with vaguely happy family scenes on them. Even better if your little one is actually smiling."

Its also 'see! I have photographic evidence we were a happy family, even if the poses only lasted all of 2 seconds for the photo to be taken'. Wouldn't it be good to have the 'after' photos/video evidence!

Oneplusone... you go girl!! Well done you!! What sprug to my mind was 'actions speak louder than words'. Hope your dh does support you...I also would be interested in the sudden turn around!

Smithfield - glad your doing okay how long is it now? 3 weeks?

Danae - isn't it great when they just bugger off and leave you behind! Other mothers complain they are not needed, I just celebrate inside! Well done you. You have a securely attached dd!! And you did it despite how low you were last year because of your own childhood. Perhaps you could mentally tell your mother 'I told you so'...

Sakura, ditto bullies/me me me people. Honestly, I look back and wonder how I put up with them...years of training I suppose...

Ally, LOL at the Toxic Parent's Handbook. I did in fact think of your mother and the memorial as soon as I opened the envelope. It's nice to have each other and our shared experiences as our new frame of reference, isn't it? Sakura, good idea, I may just do that! Like you say, they are taskmasters at hidden messages and subtexts (translate as being two-faced?)

I have had a really busy couple of weeks at work so still have to catch up, sorry Smithfield, 1plus1 and new posters for not acknowledging you... Smithfield and TMSB, when are you both due?

Yes not forgetting TMSB being due...you've been quiet for a few days...hope ms is not demanding your attention at this time.

Yes its good to have each other! When I recieve something, first thought is 'must tell them...' as in all you ladies! Glad you were able to think of my little present from my mother... sorry, should not grin. But soooo melodramatic. Which is probably why she was in amateur dramatics...

Like the idea of 'a new frame of reference'

And now for my profound thought of the day (possibly year even )

Thinking of you Sabaidii for this...as well as everyone else.

My day to day anger towards my family is gone.

Why?

Because I have accepted the fact that they will not change.

The will never be the family I want and need.

I accept the fact I will not get the acknowledgement and apology that would heal so much inside.

I accept that they will never put me first.

I accept they will continue to insist on trying to provoke me to contact them, so they can go back to the 'good old family days' where I was the scapegoat.

The anger I held was the hope that this time my family would put me first. When you accept that this is not going to happen, the anger seems to dissapate.

The anger was also their painful denial of my reality of living in their family. To be told that black is white is frustrating, to be told that you were never bullied and to never get an acknowledgement or apology for it is bound to provoke anger based on my hurt. So I accept that I will never get that acknowledgement or apology. I stop hoping. I accept things as they are.

I have not grieved as in cried. I suspect I did that over many years. Possibly (not sure on that one!) but I now feel detached from them emotionally as well as physically now.

When I recieve items from them I can choose what to do with them. I can legitimately choose to ignore it and throw it away/burn it. I can choose to open it. And I can choose to 'practice detachment'. What would reacting angrily achieve? Will it help me? Will more imaginary midnight conversations/rows with my family change anything? No I'll just be bloody tired in the morning and no further forward! And their work is done.

The frustration for me came when I felt helpless in the face of their constant cards/parcels/postcards/bin bags. But I was not helpless. I can put a box on the letterbox and get my dh to open all mail. I can take out a restraint order from the courts. I can burn it. I can take control of the relationship I have with them and chose not to participate/detach by being dominated by people who have so little respect for me and my boundries. Family or not, my boundries are who I am. Take it or leave it. Compromise is not an option. (got to add 'alsta la vista baby' there)

Of course I am two years down the line and can spout all this off its a long grey road but there is a rainbow at the end...but you have to work hard to get there. Its worth the pot of gold at the end. Ahhh...see I'm a softie afterall tbh not sure I'm at the pot of gold yet...but ACCEPTANCE is very important. Actually I could have saved a lot of time putting that at the beginning but now I've written all this I'm buggered if I'm going to delete it. It can be like Confusious says...'if woman has patience to read long war and peace book, she shall recieve wisdom in the end'.

And here endeth the lesson.

Well hope it helps someone. Maybe. Or just helped me writing it down. Feel like a saint now. Just been deified and had divine inspiration.

Take it or leave it Sabaidii (don't mean that aggressively!), breaking away from family is hard and feels so complicated by 'old' family rules ie don't abandon mum. But this is about you now. Not your mother. And kicking you in the ribs was really the tip of the iceberg. Guess there was much more to your relationship that that kick.

Signing off now. My dh is forgetting what I look like.

Hello all,

It is fun knowing what is going on, I am on the verge of a good giggle!

Sabaidii, my Middle Sister makes for a light interlude. Our parents have passed on and she perceives herself matriarch and has been using me (and my family) for Narcissistic supply. I am setting boundaries and have not cut her out completely yet, even though I've received professional encouragement to do so.

My Aunt "J" passed away on/about Jan 8. This aunt was married to my father's youngest brother (second wife) and she was a snooty one, never, ever wanting to be part of this family. For example, she would never be in family photos unless my uncle physically dragged her to be in it. (My uncle passed on last July.) I always thought Aunt "J" was the poster girl for why my father never remarried. She made it clear on several occasions she doesn't want anything to do with us.
So we just were not close, no feelings for her at all - or, ummm...no positive ones anyway. She passes on, I get a call from my cousin's wife at ten at night saying the funeral would be a 2pm the next day; she just wanted us to know-knew we probably couldn't come. And right, I didn't.

I called Middle Sister at 10:10pm to let her know (cousin didn't say if she called her or not). Middle Sister goes to bed at 9:30 sharp because of her new job hours start at 7:00am (she acts like she is the only one that has to get up early-even while complaining about the traffic, lol). I say sorry I woke you --"Oh, no you didn't wake me." I tell her about our aunt and she says a little sarcastically, "well, I guess we (she presumes "we"!) won't be going". So I say no, I'm not. This is MS who shamed and judged Oldest Sister for not attending Uncle's funeral. MS is a stickler for attending funerals, no matter what (being single, no children it is easy for her to 'drop everything' and go and can not imagine why someone else couldn't do the same).

Middle Sister starts into sympathy chat that 'she's with Uncle in heaven now, its for the best, etc' and I said simply, "MS, I just don't have feelings for her." Then she asks if I wouldn't mind sending flowers since she couldn't / shouldn't do it from work (even though she does have a home computer and isn't that a 24/7 kind of thing? )
OK, I say. The next morning, I completely forget about it until about 10 in the morning. I pull up the obit on line and it said "in lieu of flowers, donate to x or y charity".

So Hey! I made an executive decision! Yes, me! Now that I exist and feel and have my own brain... I decided to not send flowers! Yes, shocking, indeed!

Middle Sister calls me up from her important job to check up on me, to see if I sent the flowers. I said, "well, MS, the obit said "in lieu of..." so I thought it'd be best to do that instead". And she was a little quiet after that-control-control-and quietly agreed and did not go into anything of the sort that 'I said I was going to send flowers, so why didn't I keep my word?!' or anything.
She did say she "resisted the urge to hop in the car and just show up to see the look on their faces". Sincere feelings for aunt, MS? Anyway, that she didn't shows some sign of encouragement to me, on some level, I don't really know what though .

She hasn't called me since and since I'm 8 months pg (due 26 Feb), one would think loving sister would call more often (like Oldest Sister-who happily donated to charity).

Anyway, I'm giggly today because today is my birthday. I'm 46 . I had expected her to call to ask me what I wanted for my birthday, so she could get me something else. At which time I was going to tell her that I didn't want birthday presents any more , after all, I'm 46- just send a card. (I did tell OS this, brain-washed equity between sisters-for which I apologized to OS this morning realizing it was a mistake.) (I told OS that I wanted to say the same thing to MS, but MS hadn't called -and I'm certainly not going to call her...OS said-"so she hasn't called you-you are being punished.)

So the sun is setting on this day and nothing from the usually grandiose, over generous Middle Sister, no phone call, no flowers, nada, nada. No superior gift that I could never thank her enough for (or ever reciprocate) keeping me in her debt. Oh...I am being so punished for not sending the flowers. I am being punished for not being the one to call her, (instead I'm waiting (dreading) for her to call me). She would think...I would expect her to call me on my birthday. Well, I am in a mind to not pick up when/if she does.

Glee Club! La, La, La!

sabaidii,
I think its a really good first step that you changed your e-mail address. Is there any way you can keep going at your job? I feel so sad at the thought you might have to give it up on account of her. AFter all, the reason your mother hates the fact you enjoy your job and have friends is because a) it takes your attention away from her- narcissists believe the world revolves around them, and are confused by something shows them otherwise, b) friends and a job represent your independance i.e they are things you have done and achieved without your mothers and they represent you, sabaidii, as a separate person to your mother. Narcissistic people (like your mother) think that they are the source of other people's happiness, so your mother is indeed jealous of other things in your life.
Its so very sad because mothers should be the ones to encourage their children-a normal mother would be pleased and happy that their child is doing so well in the world. And you are doing so well, despite your mother!!
I think you may have to lose your friends. I mean that in the best possible way because you do really deserve and need friends who care about you. As ally said, try a quiz:

Your friend's mother calls you to slag off your friend. Do you:

a) Believe what this woman is saying and hold it against your friend, or

b) Call your friend at the first chance you get to inform her of the fact her mother seems to be calling people and running her down

Your friends aren't bad, but narcissistic people can be very convincing. Many people on here have lost siblings because their mother did everything they could to sabotage their relationship with them. Many of our mothers started going more crazy than usual when we were doing something in their lives that had nothing to do with them, where we had the chance to be happy; a wedding, a pregnancy, or in your case, a great job.
REalising that your mother is trying to destroy your happiness is one of the hardest things to come to terms with. BUT as ally said, you have choices. You don't need to be in contact with her. You don't need to answer questions about her. If a friend tells you that your mother has contacted them, you say
"I'm afraid my mother is ill"
Thats what I told people when they asked why on earth my mother wasn't at my wedding. An its true! A mentally healthy person wouldn't be doing things like this, so they must be ill!

oneplusone- FANTASTIC that you brought up the issue with your husband. IT was interesting about something "shifting" in your relationship with your husband. I can say the same thing happened to me. I personally got him to do the dirty work for me. I'd just had DD and I had no fight left in me. He did dress it up, I'm sure, but I got what I wanted, and that was for her to stay away and leave me alone. He told me she had cried when he told her I was upset about her behaviour at the birth. He expected me to forgive all when I heard this, but knowing the toxic person handbook as well as I do , I knew this was merely a manipulative ploy to get him to feel sorry for her. True enough a week or two later, I got a message from DH saying his mother had thought things through and that she was ready to start again. Yeah, right, I said. Things will never be the same again and my boundaries still stand.

ally-thank you for the thought of the day. I still have to remind myself of those things. I, like you, grieved throughout much of my adolescence and childhood, so even though I did experience the "precipice/abyss" feeling when I cut contact, I cried into it and let it wash all over me, because the feeling was kind of familiar. ITs so true about realising you're not helpless and its a shocking realisation, because all our childhood we never had proper choices and were taught to believe that our fate hung on the moods of the adults in our lives.

My parents are finally getting divorced. I wonder if this has something to do with me cutting them out. As though me not being in contact with my mother has meant that something has shifted in their relationship- the toxicity couldn't be released through me anymore because I had blocked it. I was no longer screaming and angry and drinking and self-harming as a result of their hurtful comments, so all of that nasty energy must have gone somewhere else. I believe it has partly fallen onto my brothers and I am trying to deal with that in my own way. Anyway, I got a letter from my dad yesterday - a pity letter, about how he has to sell the house. I didn't even flinch. Years ago, I would have been on the phone to him as his personal, free therapist. I'd have talked him through it, supported him. That is what he wanted and expected by the letter he sent. BUT when I was getting married and had nobody to turn to and my mother was trying to destroy my wedding, I called him in tears begging for support against her and the bastard shouted at me down the phone for not co-operating. He was so scared of my mother that he chose her over me. Well, something changed in me that day. The stupid man -he should have realised that the worm will turn! So now I'm going to let him sort out his own problems. Like my mother when she wrote me a letter saying how she was going through a divorce ON HER OWN (underlined) i.e without my therapy sessions that she expected. I mean, how can both of them continue without my therapy sessions, and how dare I withhold support from them!!! And yet I live in a foreign country in a tiny flat and am raising DD ON MY OWN, with no help at all and I'VE got an evil MIL down the road and a husband who is wrapped up in his mother's innocence and it wouldn't ever cross my mind to call my parents for a chat about how hard it is!

TMSB- It sounds like your middle sister maybbe sensing the change in you. I think it was really good for you to flex your muscles like you did. But try not to worry too much about her reactions. If you can look in the mirror and know in your heart that the reasons why you'Ve done something are okay, then it doesn't matter what your sister thinks.

Hi. I'm still in two minds over what to do about MIL. If DH talks to her i'm sure his main concern will be to try and save her feelings as much as possible which i'm not happy about as his main concern should be my feelings which have been hurt by his mother. But if I talk to her i might go too far the other way and irretrievably damage our relationship which i don't want to do for DD's sake. I don't want to 'divorce' MIL like i've divorced my parents as the hurt is just not deep enough to warrant it ( i guess only your parents can hurt you the most deeply).

I'm also quite angry and upset at DH. Although he has accepted that she has been nasty to me he still seems to be putting her first especially by not wanting to drag up all the many nasty things she has said to me over the past 5 years. It's funny that her nastiness only seemed to start after I had DD. Maybe she's jealous as i know she always wanted a girl and she had 2 boys. Sounds very childish but she is in fact very childish at times. I always get the feeling that she's jealous of my and DH's house which is a bit bigger than hers and she has always, in a subtle way, tried to criticise our house and the area in which we live.

I'm actually beginning to think she's mentally disturbed and in fact that would explain a lot of her behaviour which i have found extremely weird over the years just by observing her and listening to her. I know DH mentally switches off when his mum is around as she does go on a lot so a lot of stuff i've noticed has probably passed him by. One thing i found very funny was that FIL admitted that one of the greatest blessings he's had as he has got older has been to lose his hearing. Now, he never said so but I am SURE that is because it means he can no longer hear MIL moaning and bitching on all the time! Luckily FIL is the dearest, sweetest, kindest most aware person i have ever met and he has not a toxic bone in his body. I have the greatest affection and respect for him, just such a shame he is married to MIL.

Hi Sakura,
It is hard with a little one with no help (I do hope your dh helps when he can). I don't know if you plan to have more dc, if so- be careful to not have them too close together as that is very, very hard. Mine are 16 months apart and it took me 13 years to want another one, lol.

Thanks for your observation about MS and your validation that narcissists can be very convincing is so true. To further their own agenda, the appearance they project is sooo 'nice' and 'sincere' but that niceness and sincerity is on a different level than what is commonly understood. It is hard to keep that in mind sometimes, and others can not bring themselves to believe that the other level even exists.

But MS has crossed a threshold-no, she has long been across...it is the change in me-(you are right ) that now knows about it , for one-been kept stupid for so long ; and I know I can not trust her. I still feel I want to qualify that: can't trust her emotionally; can't trust her intellectually; can't trust her opinions, advice, gifts, what she says to my dd. But no, I believe it is across the board, I just can't trust her period. I can not, I will not flip/flop across THAT threshold.

My current playback reel is: "No, MS. No. Not this time, MS. Maybe some other time. No."

She did call last evening. And I picked up and played a brief round of 'happy hockey sticks'. I can tell when she has been around her friends-she had a regular supper club dinner. They were probably asking how I was doing because she talks about me/my dc so much (they know I'm pg and one of her club members is pg too). And she probably couldn't answer honestly because she wasn't calling me-so to be the perfect honest person, she finally got around to asking. I gave one word answers "fine"..."everything is fine" and told her the dc's plans for the weekend. (But I did not tell her dh would be flying out of the airport 15 min drive from her house for his travel this week. She would have insisted on assisting him in drop off and pick up. Dh said- do not tell her).
She said she hadn't mailed my birthday gift yet and I put in my line mentioned earlier and she protested-something like-"oh no, of course I need (or have to have) a gift on my birthday". I am at the point of not really listening to her, so my recall isn't quite as sharp.

Glee club is a bit deflated. I also had the thought that she'd hold a grudge since last weekend was the cut off date for her precious dog to not come back to our pet free home.
So yes, she knows she can not push me too far. Too bad she already has, and the worm has definitely turned (no flip/flopping either).

Ds is home from school today-end of exam week - and I am being pestered to ping-pong. I hope to post again soon to respond to your situations.

Oneplusone,
jeezeee! I just lost a long post to you .
Regarding mil-I think it best to detach. Your dh mentally switching off is a clue that he is already on this strategy. And you probably don't want to hear this, but I think you should defer to his opinion and let the past go. Not because he told you to, but because it can be part of your strategy-especially to stay in 'grown up mode'. It will also give you credibility as a team (you are together) and he may be more willing to defer to your requests regarding the present and future-which are more important. You may request less contact with mil because her behavior may 'rub off'. This may sound ridiculous on the surface, but mil's anger is making you angry. It may be part of the reason dh married you-you are not like his mother (and, I think, this is why my MS is single-because she reminds men of their mother!).

What I think you should try (easier said than done, and it'll take a while) is to divorce mil in your mind, but not necessarily in body or action. Don't have a big confrontation, just change how you will respond to her now, in the present, and in the future. Asking her for an apology, letting her know you want an apology, would just be giving her more fuel for the fire. I'm guessing, but I think the last thing on earth she'd ever do is apologize to you (especially since that is what you want, your 'terms'). Mil (mils in general) have years of hatred/anger built up in themselves and with all this experience...you will not win. Dils do not win. Therefore it is best to not engage in the argument/negative circumstance in the first place.

This is hard, I know, because you've been insulted and offended and that is outrageous and you are very angry. {hugs} But I really think you need to compartmentalize it, and not let it affect you anymore. Drop the anger. She is winning when you are mad-and she knows it-and that is why she keeps doing it. You are her narcissistic supply-her ego food. (Wizard of Oz and other Narcissists book or Sam Vaknin website -thanks ?Sakura?) Study up-learn the traps and manipulations so you can shrug and not take the bait.

Do not let her make you mad any more. Yes, you can choose to not get angry. (book: Anger Management: 6 critical steps to a calmer life) That will make her livid! But you are not responsible for her reaction to your refusal to participate in negative and uncivil behavior. Be preoccupied with 'a lot on your mind' and only half listen to her. (Another cue from our dhs, )

She wants to get to you through your marriage, but dh is already tunning her out so she can't do much more than scratch the surface unless you let her.
She wants to get to you through your dd, but you are the mother and your decisions rule. No one will reasonably question that. Give non committal 'ummm-hmmm' -'you'll think about it' answers, then do what you already decided in the first place-you have dh's support.
She wants to get to you through yourself...because she knows you will take things personally. This- you should try to change. From the toxic parents book- reactions come from emotions while responses come from the brain. It is a big difference-react or respond. Be less emotional around mil and more intelligent-don't get drawn in. You do not need her approval or validation for anything. Nope, nothing. Really, you don't. And you do not need for her to like you either. You are not her child (not that biological children need their parents to like them either...what this thread is about), she does not have parental control over you, not even by proxy through your dh. You may feel like an outsider, but you will be safe from her predatory anger in that context. Small price to pay.

Not knowing your mil or you very well, I can't say if this is the best strategy for you or not-I also don't know how often you have to see her. I hope some of this can help you.

oneplusone,
In letting go of the past insults...it isn't really letting it go, it is using it to justify your present course. Her past treatment of you proves your decision to not put up with it anymore is justified.

Perhaps mil will apologize and change, but if she is NPD, the change will only signify a new cycle or a new strategy of manipulation. Such as MS giving me compliments: MS in the position of authority to analyze and evaluate me like an employee review, and me-oh so happy to get a gold star! keeping me in child mode. I have quite a bit of self-humiliation for falling for that one (for a long time too ).

It may be, that on each visit, your mil will give you a few tester insults to see if she can ego feed on you at that time or not. My mil does this.

Ally90
I am really glad your day to day anger is gone. I realize I have day to day anger for MS and I am getting kind of tired of thinking about it/her tbh.

She has worn me out. I am even worn out thinking about it.

I have some of my own "letting it go" to do, oneplusone . And I do believe my mind will honestly be preoccupied - with new baby.

Move on, blank page. I am going to buy a new journal tomorrow and MS will never be mentioned in it. And the old journal...I shouldn't toss it because I probably will need a reminder in the future or dd will. It is my token shield-my knowledge of my truth and her truth for that matter.

Smithfield- I hope you are doing well and are able to sleep.

Earlybird- How are you? Have you been able to stay healthy during this difficult time? {hugs} I still don't know how to offer help for you...I do want to say don't let your sisters' opinions influence you in what you need to do for yourself. They probably have absolutely no understanding for your context or perspective or pain. I will check your other thread...

Hi there,

I have three weeks left.. Feel incredibly unprepared!
On the whole I am feeling well. Dare I say relaxed!
I have cut back on the reading, as I think I need to give my mind a break although of course invariably I am still constantly turning things over.
I was pleased to hear from middle db.
So she hadnt got to him after all !(not for want of trying no doubt).
Middle Db actually said;

'mother is doing my head in!'

He never says this! that's my line . It seems she has 'increased' her contact with him, and seems to relentlessly be bringing new issues to his door. Cooker not working, too cold in the house, taxman after her!
The good thing is I normally feel like rescuing at this point ( as in rescuing my db) but I just allowed him to give me the basic facts and left it at that.
At least our relationship is still intact which has made me very happy.

sabaidi- Im sorry your mother is sabotaging your life like this.
She doesn't stop when you tell her how much it is hurting you, because she 'is' toxic and so to her your feelings, wants and needs dont come into the eqaution.
It is 'all' about 'her' Im afraid. It most likely always will be. You need to take care of yourself. I think changing your email address was the right thing to do. Great start. You need to shield yourself from this woman and to do that she has to be starved of information about you.
hugs. Keep posting.

oneplusone- I think toomany has echoed what I was intending to post to you. Its funny but I think your posts stirred soemthing up in me and I ended up having a whole therapy session on my MIL! It was a really good session so I have you to thank for that
It was about being able to trust my instincts (finding my sense of self) and setting boundaries. My mil doesn't ever insult me, and my issues with her are more around my ds. MIL 'was' looking after him for 4 days a week 9I work full-time).
I began to feel undermined by her and that boundaries were becoming blurred. It sounds far fetched but I almost felt as though she thought 'she' was ds' mother and was trying to push me out. It began to affect my relationship with ds as well and caused me a lot of anxiety and stress. It was 'SO' subtle though oneplusone I could barely put my finger on what was happening. I had trouble, due to my lack of confidence in trusting my oen instincts.
UNTIL she slipped up and did something very obvious.
I then drew up some boundaries. I did it in the way toomany described. I did it with actions not with words. I moved ds to a nursery close to home, upped him to two days and negotiated a day working from home. So I reduced ds' time with MIL to two days. I also made it clear with DH our weekends were 'family' time and I would not be spending it with MIL, as she got to see ds in the week anyway.
She seemed to respond to these new boundaries and so I have left it at this and it works. But if I felt threatened again I would re-think.
I did have a verbal confrontation with her, but I was forced into that by her, it was over the incident I mentioned above, and Im not sure what it achieved really. Also I did at the time ask DH to intervene, but he was way too softly softly (like you suspect dh would be)
I think to confront people like this verbally tbh can be futile. To have a win/win confrontation you need a level of honesty from both sides, as MIL's of this nature often have their own agendas or maybe have little insight into their own agendas how can they be honest?
I think you have to think, 'what do 'I' want as an outcome from this and act accordingly.
As toomany says draw a line under the past and start today with resolve as to how you will tackle her from now. Sorry if Ive not been much help with this!
Also (hoping not to upset or offend you with this) But is there 'any' chance the anger you are feeling toward her atm is not projected from the anger you are currently feeling from your own mother? Its just a thought and something to explore maybe??

Toomany- Just wanted to say, not long to go eh! No, Im not sleeping too well atm. I dont suppose you are either. Mother nature can be a pain at times right!
Think you have come on leaps and bounds with MS. You are incredibly resilient and coragious, keep going.
I am waiting for the day when I read a post from you saying...' and then I told MS to shove her expensive gift.' But politely of course but with such assertiveness and dogged determination ahe actually did. She cant punish you anymore than she already has toomany!

Ally- great to see your anger has disapeared and yes I think the key is letting go of the dream that they will one day turn into the perfect family. This illusion keeps your expectations high and morale low, because its an expectation that is never ever met.
I used to snap a lot at dh, and that has dissipated so I hope Im on the right track. I have to give myself so 'hormonal' leeway at the moment of course

Sakura- It is very tough bringing a lo up on your own. It does make you stronger though knowing you 'can' do it and that you are doing a great job.
Your post about your dad was so reminiscent of my dad. When the split happened between my parents, I 'suddenly' started getting phonecalls from my father. Regular, long phonecalls. He'd barely spoken to me over the phone in years! And yes I too became 'his' therapist.
When we first came back to the uk things were dreadful financially for a time. My father barely acknowledged any of my difficulties, instead he would just download about 'his own' financial problems invoked by the divorce!

Sorry ladies have to unload.

Thought i was doing really well - have started to put down some boundaries with toxic parents.

But at the moment I am going through a real crossroads in my life with both boys now at school and I am trying to make decisions about where I go next. Being a SAHM is a looked on down role in my over achieving, critical, intellectual family. And I find myself unable to make decisions (a pattern of my life) and even thinking about it makes me shut down and withdraw from my friends and family.

Have been making real breakthroughs with my kids and husband - but just realised that my nearly 7 year old son is starting to show the signs of becoming my therapist (just as I was to my mum) with me offloading on him.

DH has his own issues to deal with, also coming from an extremetly dysfunctional family and our relationship of over ten years is dysfunctional. Me, not seeing value in myself having very low requirements in relationships and DH although being a kind and good man has been taking the piss for so long its hard to change. He wants to support me but doesn't know how to.

He has just been told that he is getting a promotion at work and that has started his own demons.

Anyway on Friday he is going on a hoffman residential course to deal with his issues. I was originally going to do the course but we decided that his need was greater than mine at the moment(especially as he is the bread winner and his issues affect his work). We are working towards the same goal so I think we are going to be alright.

I thought that I was doing well and was going to be able to work through things on my own. But its not so much my parents at the moment as we hardly ever see them, its the damage that their subliminal messages have done to my emotional health. I feel angry but mostly just sad and want to lock myself away and have a good bawl. I can't bawl infront of DH because he cannot handle it at the moment.

The book - if you had controlling parents which I was reading last night has just done me in.

Hi kaz-

Sorry your feeling a bit deflated atm.
Just remember you are going in the right direction, but as many have said on here...sometimes its a case of one step forward then two back. At least that's how it may feel.

Try and focus on the good stuff, the progress, the breakthroughs, in other words let yourself off the hook.

I think its a positive that you are starting to look at 'you' and 'your' family and how you interact as a unit. Before you may have spent all your energy and insight on your interactions with your parents. Thats how I feel at the moment. Like suddenly I have mental space to look at 'my' family unit I am creating here. Im able to forget about them and their issues, and am for the first time free from them projecting those issues on to me.

'I find myself unable to make decisions (a pattern of my life) and even thinking about it makes me shut down and withdraw from my friends and family'

Ditto- and I dont have the answer to this Kaz, but somewhere on this journey Im sure we will tackle it and get to grips with it. I cant 'entirely' relate to what Im about to say on an emotional level yet, BUT (deep breath) I think the key is we have to believe we are 'enough', without adding any other trappings, such as career, money, looks. Does that make sense? Doesn't mean we shouldnt have aspirations but a starting point should be that we like and are happy with ourselves just the way we are.

With regards to dh at least he is acknowleding his issues and is willing to act, by going on the course. That means a whole lot.

Sorry if Im not much help. But just wanted to reply and say Im here if you want to doenload some more. And have a cyber hug.

BTW have read that book, was there anything specific that made you feel bad?
Some books just do that. I can think of a couple that set me off too!

Thanks Smithfield.

I was thinking about my parents earlier and how they like to take the boys off on extended holidays. I was psyching myself for a fight over their desired week long summer holiday with the boys.

Then I suddendly thought what am I afraid of, by the time the boys turn 18 they will be in their mid/late 70's and just two old people who love their grandchildren. My mum has spent her life bitching about her MIL and it is only now that MIL is 90 and in a residential home she realises that the game is over. I used to think it was rather pathetic, I don't want to do that to my kids. They are entitled to a relationship with their grandparents and who am I to take that away from them. My parents love the boys and will take good care of them and at the end of the day that is all that matters. The only person I am hurting is myself to give my parents so much power over me.

I suppose Smithfield the book got to me, as before I was thinking of the process as an intellectual exercise and using the lessons in the way I was bringing up my kids. But last night my pain really surfaced and I was that little lonely quiet girl with no friends

What you said about trappings off success makes total sense. There is no reason why we should be keeping up with my over achieving family. We are about to sell one of our cars as we have some debts to try and make a dent in them and are actively trying to downsize our lifestyle. I want to be happy doing what we are doing, I don't want to feel pushed to spend money that we don't have. After all that just puts me further into my parents power. But its tough to change patterns of achievement and material values when your whole family has been climbing the greasy pole as long as you were alive.