"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

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This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

kaz- 'There is no reason why we should be keeping up with my over achieving family.'

I totally get where you are coming from with this. My parents are exactly the same. It is all about money with them. It totally got to me when we first got back from o/seas as we had nothing and struggled.

Your right I think it does keep you in their power. Ive only just recognised this.
You either rebel, and end up in debt...like me...then you go to them to bail you out so you are still in 'their' control. Or you comply to their view on life and work toward superficial goals. And yet they are your parents goals not your own....so you are still being controlled by them.

Me and dh have worked hard to be 'ok' financially, not well off, but self sufficient and thats fine with me now.

Im tired with the 'micro rat race' my parents set up between me,my siblings and them!
You sound like you are feeling a bit better?? I must head to bed now. But I will check in tommorrow.

A lot better thanks Smithfield - had coffee with a member of my extended family in which she had to acquaint me with her husbands 6 figure salary and how hard it is to find the right house - yawn, yawn.

I was very relaxed, didn't come away full of envy and greed. I thought you must be very insecure to broadcast this info all over a packed coffee shop - the couple next to me must have had a good laugh when we were gone. I wasn't actually particularly pushy, she just started spouting....

The other thing I have started to do is look for the controlling patterns in my families way of doing things. Even watching her with her little toddler, she was full of controlling statements - don't, that belongs to mummy etc...

Just wanted to say hi and that I have been thinking of you all. Just am not finding much time to come onto mnet lately. Hope to catch up soon with the last 100 or so posts...

Re the last couple of posts, I liked the analogy of the micro rat race. My younger brother is fiercely competitive and my mother has always seemed to encourage it. I think it's still something to do with reflected glory for her.

I had a thought today about the way society holds so much store by family and the whole blood is thicker than water stuff and I thought that it is because your family will ordinarily be the people that you can rely on to stick by you and be there for you come what may. But if your family aren't there for you and - worse - actively cause you pain and let you down, then really they are no better than the worst kind of friend, so breaking free and protecting yourself is the logical answer. Why do so many people find that hard to understand?

Also something to do with her pitting us all against each other too (Let's see which one of you can achieve the most and be the most worthy of my love).

In my family - wealth, career and social climbing have been the watch words of success...

So obviously you will never be as rich, as successful and well known as me - hence you have failed and I have succeeded and am better than you.

But increasingly I want to be judged on the quality of the relationships I am in.

Or even not judged at all, but appreciated for the unique, wonderful, loving, interesting person you are?

Hi
kaz33-and all-

I am a SAHM and I have felt the return-to-work question's stresses, too.
One of the foundational irritations for me is that stay at home moms are so taken for granted and that makes it a thankless 'job'. SAHM's are kind of diminished and dismissed by nearly everyone-except the dc it seems.
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And everyone here knows how I am of being diminished and dismissed- from any source!
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As adults though, we want validation from other adults in stead of being 'invisible' because we don't draw a paycheck. (I'm not going to go into my opinions on feminism or the needs of others to have to work for survival or chauvinistic traditions of the male establishment.)
It is hard to see the crucial value of what we do though-giving the next generation the best start possible so our civilization can continue (I won't go political either). (I don't think I stated that in the most eloquent way, but I think you can see what I mean.)
There is a lot of pressure from many directions to make us second guess ourselves about our decision to stay at home, or stay at home long term, or stay at home permanently. They pish-posh our day in day out, micro-incremental contributions because the long term future is simply never considered, it seems. They just won't be bothered to take the time to THINK about it. It is so narrow minded from an instant gratification me-me-me mindset that seems to have a grip across all levels of society (as here in USA-or can I make a sweeping generalization and say it is the disease of greed-which may know no boundaries?)

So family /sibling competition for a bank balance or material accumulations to define success or earn a parent's love...pathetic [shaking head in disgust emoticon].
We know in our hearts the most important success is having and raising the next generation to be feeling, functional, independent citizens.

TMSB climbs down from the Corner Crier Block to go fold some laundry. What a world.

And if you question it - you get my child is very happy, well rounded human being who can discourse on a wide range of subjects and is polite and well behaved. A bit of a performing monkey perchance.

I want to shriek at my relatives wife, do you really think that it is a good idea to leave your 10 month old baby 4 days a week when you don't need the money, you haven't been out of work long and in any event are only staying here temporarily until you go somewhere else, get another job and then have to go through all the settling in again. Just because having a baby is boring and demanding. That isn't a anti work rant because I realise that some people have to work and am not against childcare per se. But for god sakes it so shortsighted. You are an intelligenet woman so why are people so blind to an obvious truth.

And these are the people who try and make me feel inadequate because I am a SAHM.

i struggle with this one on a daily basis.

I 'had' to work full-time when we got back from o/seas beacuse of our circumstances. We could not of anticipated just how difficult it would have been for dh to get work.

In the end Dh changed careers in order to work. We took a huge risk and thankfully it is beginning to pay off.

I feel proud that I supported my family through this change. I've literally kept my family fed, clothed and put a roof over our heads over the last couple of years.
BUT where would I rather have been.......at home with my son.

Now Im at home on mat leave ,I often feel a bit wistful of the time I missed out on with him, although I didnt go back til he was 18 months so I shouldnt complain. But suddenly he is 3 and the interim has passed in a flash.

So now I struggle with the next choice. Do I go back or not? Part time is not an option, so it has to be one or the other

The problem for me is the financial competition is instilled in me. I can fight it all I like but it looms over me like a monster. I dont want to be the failure of the family and yet logically I know Im not its just without financial/superficial trappings that is how I am percieved. I dont love my job, but it pays well and provides status symbols...car, travel. I wasted 15 years on a job that gave 'me' no personal satisfaction to maintain these things!
What really angers me is I have worked these last two years for everything I have now. we have done well. But my sister is 'given' everything I have worked for, for free by my parents. Why?
Am I a lesser person than her?

What I 'do' know is, that is how the competition is set up by them (my parents) In other words its set up so I will fail every time.

I often think about how my middle db sacrifices his wife's and ultimately his two sons' happiness in order to maintain his lifestyle.

She works 3 days a week and earns more than I do full time. But her wage pays for the status symbols they have accumualted. Deep down she would rather be at home too.

Im not saying being at home is for everyone. But I just wish I could give myself 'permission' to be who I really want to be....At home with dc's or in a job I love but which pays little...this is what I struggle with.

sorry just read my post and thought it might have come accross as a bit aggressive
Was just meant to be a bit of healthy anger directed at my lovely parents. Not you guys!

Smithfield - it doesn't come across as aggressive at all. Its odd that a lot of us, with toxic parents, are tormented by this whole career/money/success thing against bringing up our kids. Maybe because we missed out love and support when we were growing up we are more admanant that our should children get it.

kaz- I think that is it exactly. It is why I personally struggle with day-care. Because I cant bare the thought of ds 'not' getting his emotional needs met in any way.
And I know the distress and pain that causes a child. We all do.

ditto smithfield=
exactly kaz33
Thanks for understanding me.

And I also:
I sincerely did not, and do not, want to offend anyone who has no choice but to work and be away from their dc.

Had contact with Middle Sister-tell you about it later...more verification for me. And thank you Pages for your "Why on earth..." comment a few weeks ago- I am coming to accept that a complete cut of contact is the correct, best, accurate way to look out for myself. I can not give up the journal yet as so boldly declared earlier-it will take much more time to fully recover. Each contact brings a detox time-my journal is my emergi-shower-to document the additional verification of her NPD.

I hope all is 'quiet on the western front' Smithfield.
Thinking of you, earlybird.

Toomany- feel bad now- Hope you didnt think you offended me! You couldnt possibly do that

Toomany- feel bad now- Hope you didnt think you offended me! You couldnt possibly do that

I have always worked since my babies were small. I have always enjoyed working and staying home made me depressed. I think it is a personal choice and that no-one should be criticised for working, as long as the childcare is of a good quality. My mother has been critical of me for working because she stayed at home when we were small, so of course she must have done the right thing and I must be wrong. I don't think it works like that.

My children are already ten times more confident, happy and secure then I was at their age, and I honsetly don't believe they would be any more or less so if I had stayed at home. But SAHMs don't have to defend their position to me,either - I totally respect anyone who does such a demanding and worthwhile job.

Sorry Pages, I didn't really want to make this a thread about SAHM/Working mums. What i put was insensitive and you have responded very maturely. You have been a tremendous support throughtout this thread, with a mum like you they must be very kind caring kids

Pages- I have to ask did you struggle with any guilt at leaving them?
I have to say ask, because you seem to be so at peace with it all, whereas I struggle. Constantly.

I have to say that despite being forced into the role of breadwinner I 'had' begun to enjoy work and really get something out of it. Probably for the first time in many years. Maybe for once I'd thought about me and my own sense of ambition?.. Urm timing eh!

But I do feel guilt. I also think (in my case though) I have had the waters muddied by MIL. (grrrr) Its great that she has ds through the week, 'but' it is equally a constant source of anxiety to me. (a whole other rant)

Again my main problem is self doubt I guess. Im Finding it hard in all this to find my 'gut' feel and then sit with it...dooes that make sense?
Like you are able to have enough self knowledge to say 'I could not stay at home'. and the confidence to stick with that self knowledge. ...(even going against her majesty in so doing

I guess it is something I will have to build myself and it will only come in time.
Just wondered if you were self doubting and how you overcome it, obviously this can apply to any area of your life.

Thanks Kaz. I don't feel any need to be defensive because, Smithfield, no - I can honestly say I have never ever struggled with any guilt about leaving them, not even despite my mother's comments. I knew I would be a working mum before I had dc and that was always the plan.

I have occasional guilt that DS1's childcare wasn't very stable for the first year of his life, but that was mainly because his SN became apparent very quickly and (despite so-called inclusion)at least two childminders couldn't cope with him and told me so, and that he had to leave . That was very upsetting. But we then came across the most fabulous nursery ever, and both boys have been incredibly happy there for the past 3 years. We have always had to drag them away in the evening. It has been like having a loving extended family for them both and even though DS1 is now at school two of the nursery staff provide respite care for him from time to time, and he is extremely attached to them still, and they to him.

That is one of the reasons why I don't think gp's matter because they have both had loads of love from other adults who genuinely love them. All the women who run the place are genuinely maternal types and have even mothered me a bit in the process! (as mentioned on other posts).

And yet, both DC are also extremely attached to me and DH, and we have a good laugh together at weekends and I am always there to put them to bed at night and get up with them in the morning. I have tons of patience and I don't think I have ever raised my voice to either of them - probably because I get a break and get to do something I love during the week (as do they)as well as the intellectual stimulation I need. So everyone is happy. So, no guilt, no. It works well for us.

I have two good "mum" friends who I see regularly and two of us work and the other feels passionately about being a SAHM and I can't say this conversation has ever come up between us - we all respect each other's position and I think that is nice.

I think that life is too full of shoulds and shouldnts and there are always people ready to make you feel guilty for anything you do (or don't do) as a mum. Especially our NPD relatives...

Pages- Thanks for that.

I think that life is too full of shoulds and shouldnts and there are always people ready to make you feel guilty for anything you do (or don't do) as a mum. Especially our NPD relatives...

I think this is very key...for me at least. Which leads me nicely to this fab link. I found it really helpful.Here

Yes, wow Smithfield - that is fascinating, certainly helps me understand that my immediate and extended family are all playing those games. Certainly I have felt like the persecutor recently - which by the sounds of it is a positive role

How are you doing Smithfield?

Yes, I have come across Karpman's Drama Triangle before. I have often thought that no matter what position my mother is in at any given time, she always ends up back in victim with me as persecutor and my siblings as her rescuer. The only way is "off"!!

I am now just slowly starting to work my way through the last 5 pages and I apologise for my delayed reaction... am on page 25 and am very interested in what Sakura said about seeing "Good Mummy/Bad Mummy" as I am certain this is the way I rationalised the inconsistent care I received as a child.

And especially what you said, Smithfield, about problems at work - that was very interesting to me - are you able to explain in more depth what your counsellor said? I am going through a tough time at work ATM and despite the fact that I love what I do, my employers have been a bit tough on me and other employees in recent weeks and I have found myself wondering how much my self-esteem is bound up in approval from my employers - even though I don't feel I need it from my family any more.

The triangle was so interesting, especially the part about that if someone tries to leave the "persecutor-victim-rescuer" triangle (as we all have), the only way out is via the role of persecutor. Everyone tries desperately not to be labelled as the persecutor, not wanting to be "bad" and yet that is the only way out! Its not that you actually become a persecutor, but its that by asserting your own self and boundaries, other members see this as an assault, hence the "why is she doing this to me" pleading of my mother when I went ahead with my wedding without her "permission".

Pages, my self esteem is SO bound up in other people's approval that its unreal. But aCtually, my husband moreso than me TBH. He is painfully, acutely obsessed with how other people view him, and he is judgemental of others. Some of this is cultural, and of course some of it is because he was raised by MIL!! She, by the way, is obsessed with society status and ostentation and that tells me a lot about her.
I'm concerned with how I look physically, how I'm perceived by others, especially people I don't know. I have friends who are genuine, kind people- I would say, deep friendships, but even so, sometimes I find that want to look good in their eyes by dressing DD and myself in nice clothes (that I basically shouldn't be buying). My friends couldn't give a rats-arse how I look, and thats good, so why do I still feel this need. Its as though I, sakura, am not enough to offer someone. I have to be sakura+ other trappings. WEll I know the answer to that, but still...
and actually I think I'm getting worse since moving to Asia, because for ASians (without wanting to generalise too much), the external and the internal are very interwoven. SO if you look nice and wear nice things, people assume you are nice. There is much more ostentation here than there is in the UK. The first thing people do when they get a bit of money and a good job is to buy a flash car, a mercedes. Well in the UK, that is so obviously ostentatious that its almost a parody. ITs a warped and backward way to be, I have to be stronger here than I'd have to be at home to resist the "force"!!!

Hi Sakura, I thought that too about the persuctor position, as we all seem to have left our family in that position (even though we felt we had been treated badly, our mother's became the victims and our siblings/other family members rescued them and we became the bad guys). Nice to know that was the only way we could have done it!

My DH is also very like your DH, much more so than me. He is very concerned with "what the neighbours think" and I in fact don't care too much what people who don't know me think of me, but I seem very concerned with being thought of as a nice person by those that know me, and also valued by my employers. Maybe the latter is to do with me having had most positive attention and "love" from my mother for being a high achiever?

It's weird how my life keeps teaching me lessons. It's almost as if now I have learned not to seek approval from my mother and siblings I now am thrown the same problem to deal with at work. I have never worked anywhere for any length of time where I haven't been thought of extremely highly and have had stretches of working somewhere for a long period and being very company loyal, and on the link taht Smithfield gave us on page 25 (reparenting) that was one of the classic traits of a people pleaser. I even worry if one of the secretaries is grumpy with me. Why do I need to be liked so much?? Do you all like me? Waaaaaah!

Being left out and ganaged up on - having people against me has always been my big fear, because I guess it happened to me in my family. I would love to be one of these people who just acts the way I feel with people and doesn'care if they like me or not (I think VS said she had learned to be like that)

I think because I have really seen my mother and other family members for what they are they can't make me feel weak any more, but maybe falling out of favour with my employers is still a stumbling block for me (or is it normal to need to be respected and valued at work? Does anyone really want to work somewhere whereby if you said you were leaving you knew they were going to say "off you go then"?)