"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

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This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

Yes, thats an important question. But I personally have made my peace with myself over whether I am being as bad as her. The reason is that throughout my childhood, so when I was a child, I always "forgave" horrendous behaviour because I wanted to be the better person of the two of us. I would wait and wait after she'd beaten me and eventually the rush of love for her would come and I'd feel forgiveness. I felt relief each time, because I felt that those feelings made me human, and not a block of ice. And that there was still some good inside me despite everything, so I behaved the better person until my marriage.
But, what had been happening was that that hatred and anger I should have been feeling had begun to simmer inside me and instead of confronting the object that was causing them, I started to turn it onto myself. Depression, cutting, binge-drinking, drug-taking, tattoos, destructive, abusive relationships, dangerous situations (put myself in VERY dangerous positions where I could have been raped). I just had no sense of self-preservation. I thought I was shit and treated myself as though I was.
And all along I was forgiving my mother for everything she had done (and was still doing)

Most of the time I felt I was going insane, like I was going to be carted off one day to the mental asylum. I just didn't know what the hell was wrong.
ANd now, since I've cut her out- I'm like a new person. So for me it was not a choice. I mean, I had a choice- her or me, but because I have DD, my conscience forces me to choose myself, because that is the only way I can give DD a halfway decent childhood. Let the poison back in again, and it will siphen its way into DD's life via me. Every day she knocks me for six with a spiteful letter or phone call is a day I have to spend curled up in bed instead of out in the sunshine with DD.
So I have made my peace with whether I am the better person or not. Maybe I'm not, but I really don't care anymore. I want to make damn sure I'm the better parent, and if cutting her out means there is a better possibility of me raising DD properly, then I think I'm doing the right thing.

Sakura- Thankyou for posting that- Your posts are so sobering. In more ways than one.
I hear your sense of self speaking when you write. That is so important beacuse a sense of self is something I have always been sorely lacking and from what you have written, so were you UNTIL you found the strength to stand up for yourself.

Your mother sounds like a monster tbh, and Im always so struck when I read your posts, because I can actually visualise the little girl you once were and how badly treated you were without reason or recourse.

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Danae- Thankyou for that. It seems like I just have to keep re-enforcing and re-enforcing, after all old habits die hard.
Your story reminded me of quite a similar one of my mother. She had fallen and smacked her head, and I took her to hospital. I Watched her bask in the attention. Then found out afterwards that her fall had been due to two whole bottles of wine, and a jolly good time had by all no doubt. No mention form her of any of that however as I sat anxiously by her side all day. Of course the lack of info on her part also meant she needed more medical attention and tests done because they were trying to fathom why she had fell in the first place!

Danae Im so pleased you have come to the conclusion you have. I relate to you on so many levels in the way our mothers interact with us, and the way we interact with ourselves. My mother would always go on about ds's speech amongst many other things. Anything to keep my anxiety up and my self esteem low!
I was thinking of you the other day because I was wondering if you had read 'Trapped in the mirror' (elan golomb). Not over the top great on solution/resolution, but my goodness what an amazing insight into growing up with NPD mothers and how that impacts on us as we are now. Would highly recommend it!

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Danae- just xposted- Yes I so relate to the just feeling 'tired' of it.
I think what may be difficult for us at times is the abuse we had was (for the most part) quite subtle. I've always struggled with this. Yet when I had my last session I talked about some physical abuse, and realised it was actually the subtle stuff that was far more painful.
When I left for o/seas 8 years ago (my god kept thinking it was just six) At my leaving dinner I got quite drunk and said to my mum 'Why dont you like me?'. I Realise now she has always projected her own self hatred on to me. So suprise suprise, maybe I'm actually ok and likeable after all. What a strange concept!

Smithfield - my heart goes out to you, I know how much you must be suffering at the moment. Guilty as you want to be a "good daughter" and desperate to protect yourself and your unborn baby. Personally I have lost all rationality and control when it comes to my parents, thinking about seeing them makes me feel all panicky and weak. I assume you feel the same in which case you need to stay away as you know.

So far in my limited journey I have been practising a middle way - sure it has already been suggested but you could send her a card wishing her well and saying you don't want to put the baby under stress so will be in touch when your baby is born??

Hugs - when is the due date??

Hi kaz- Thanks for that. I do feel you have to follow your heart and if you can manage a middle road with your mother/parents, than that is a good thing. You have to make sure it works for you though!

I guess I feel atm that sending a card would alert her to the fact 'I know'. My knowing, Im guessing, was in fact her intention. I feel (as difficult as it is) that by sending her a card it would be like opening the door to her. Before I know it she would have pushed herself the whole way in. That doesnt mean I dont feel guilty for feeling this way though.

She is not silly, she knows something is amiss with us! I feel like Ive tried a middle road with her but I am still left with a 'mummy hangover' after any interaction. By that I mean as you say yourself, feelings of stress, anxiety, depression. Throw some hormones into the mix and this grows (for me) to binge eating, crying fits, and a lot of anger directed at DH, who in NO WAY deserves it .
A lot of this I had not even linked to my family, or specifically to my mum. Im so used I guess to 'acting out', and then re-enforcing low self worth by saying 'See what your like, what a bad person you are...'. Guess I was carrying out my mums work for her, while she wasnt close by.
Reading Sakuras post has really helped clarify things for me...the feelings of anger, resentment must go somewhere should we keep on forgiving.
I'm afraid I really have come to the end of the road with my mother and possibly my father too.
If this (her suspected illness) turns out to be serious, I will be there for her but on my terms and with boundaries attached.
As for anything else...like danae said the bank account is well and truly emptied.

kaz- btw- do you know what page your story is on wanted to refresh my 'baby brain'.

Hi, all, sorry have only skim read the recent posts, will be back later to read properly.

My feelings of grief and sadness yesterday today seem to have turned into anger and rage. I feel so angry at my mother and if it wasn't for the DC's and the fact that i don't want to spend the rest of my life in jail, i am actually minded to go round to my parents house and physically beat up my mum. Although of course that would give her the perfect opportunity to play her 'victim' role to the hilt. So i guess i won't do it. But i am very tempted.

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Smithfield - forgotten you weren't meant to know, stay well away.

Me, just the normal - long term emotional abuse by both parents, manipulation by money, highly critical and probably both NPD parents (trapped in a mutual appreciation society)

I think that I did the confrontation bit with both parents seperately last year, without having known what I was doing ie: as proscribed by toxic parents.

Things are a bit quiet at the moment, dad just blanked me and mum a bit more engaged. She just kept saying - what do you want from me, I said respect but what I really wanted to say was love, but felt a bit of prat to think it. But now I have more realisation.

So far I have said No a couple of times to them and told them what I wanted about the boys, at the moment there is a truce. And I don't think they really care, they don't want to be worried as long as we turn up at the requisite family events and get the pictures taken so we can pretend in the happy family myth.

Mostly I am trying to change in my behaviours with the boys and be a better parent. That has been the journey that I have really enjoyed. But there is still a lot left inside that I haven't dealt with. Read a couple of books and I think that I have to get angry not just resigned but not sure when I am going to do that as it seems such a big step.

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oneplusone- I think anger is good, but I obviously struggle a but with that one.Ive had a lot of turning it in on myself and turning it on to DH .
There is some good stuff in divorcing a parent on dealing with the anger I think?

KAz- Your family sound akin to mine. I used to wonder why I felt so damn bad every time I visited. Luckily my parents are now divorced (fairly recently) and I think this has made it easier, as there power has now been halved. I honestly dont know if I would have had the strength to face the two of them like this whilst still together.
So I feel for you with your parents still united in their NPD world.
I think you might find the book I mentioned to Danae useful, Trapped in The Mirror, Elan Golomb.
A lot of manipulation from my dad involved money (prob my mum too, but she did it through him).
This is how he now retains control of my siblings. I know we measure his love by money (and measure ourselves that way too). I finally realise I couldnt give a monkeys about the money anymore. I 'can' make it in this life without their financial bribary input. And I need to stop measuring myself this way too.
Is that something you find yourself doing as well Kaz? I really struggle with it.

I just lost a huge post before , but I'll try to re-type the jist of it.
I wanted to say what has just been said- that often the subtler abuse is more hurtful and painful than overt abuse.
SMithfield, monster is an interesting word to use because from a child's perspective, that is how it feels. I read that a child's brain splits an abusive parent into two entities, "Good Mother" and "Bad Mother". It can't make the connection that they are both the same person, because to admit that they person they rely on for love, comfort and safety is the same person as "Bad Mother", who causes them untolerable pain would be too devastating and possible suicide could follow. So to preserve the "organism" i.e the brain and body, the coping mechanism that comes into play is this split in the child's mind. SO I think its around this time that the child developes neuroses or may even start showing signs of a personality disorder. Sam Vaknin says that personality disorders are a kind of coping mechanism-- a way of helping the mind cope with its abnormal, abusive surroundings. SO for example, a person with NPD learned in childhood to detatch and not feel- thats why they are emotionally cold and unable to show empathy. If they felt at the time what they should have felt, they would have most certainly done something drastic to end it all, or even gone completely insane. So the personality disorders, depression etc are a way of helping the person to keep living and keep on going, perhaps as oneplusone said, to be stored in our brain for a future time, when we are ready and able to deal with the pain properly. I personally believe childhood experiences are connected to all kinds of mental disorders, including pschizophrenia (sp?)
This points us to the direction that our mothers were all most likely abused somehow in their childhoods to turn out the way they did. They didn't get their emotional needs met as a child, but we know that anyway, and it doesn't help us, because it brings up the guilt and pity again.
This is also probably why we found it so hard to finally admit that we weren't loved and that our mothers had been as abusive as they had, because that meant we had to fuse the two mothers together and admit that they were one and the same person. Thats why misogynists take out their anger at their mothers out on women in general, and Hitler took out his anger against his incredibly abusive father out on the Jews, STalin destroyed and pillaged Georgia more than any other country in the SU, and he himself was Georgian. Anything but admit where the true source of their pain came from.

Smithfield, guilt is normal. I felt a hell of a lot when I was pg and sent my mother the separation letter. I won't repeat what my dad said to me when my dd was only a few weeks old/week old (because I have some empathy/sensitivity!) but he indicated how much pain my mother was in by reminding me of something that happened years ago. And it was TOTALLY inappropriate to use that example at that time in my life. I think back now and think what an selfish unfeeling bastard. And manipulative! They will go to any extent to tell me about my mothers pain but do bugger all about mine. Oooh you were talking about anger!

Anyway, yes guilt, perfectly normal. My therapist did ask why I felt guilt. He reminded me my relationship with my mother was 50% her responsibility and 50% my responsibility (or it was in a book). Ask yourself if she felt guilty when she was abusing you as a small helpless loving child? This isn't about tit for tat though, as you know, this is about yourself and keeping yourself safe emotionally from her. The situation is NOT 100% your responsibility. And I would suggest you have serious thoughts about not nursing her if she is ill. I sound heartless, but she is the same person and you were not put on this earth to look after her. You have your ds, dp and dbaby and yourself to put first, you do not have the time nor the energy to spread it further (or maybe you do at the moment?!) to put your mother's needs first, again.

Gosh I'm strident today. You are doing a fantastic insightful loving (yourself and your dc and dh) courageous thing by taking yourself away from your mother. And this is a very tough time for you. A baby nearly ready to be born and your mother in for tests. Please do not lose focus. If you go to your mother, will you be doing the best you can for her or for you and your family? I really feel for you, illness and old age will come to all our parents one day and we will all have to go through what you are going through now (but probably not as fraught being so pg!). You do not know how long your mother has, 5 minutes or 40 years. But your focus is you and your family, not your mother.

Have I marshalled enough arguments yet? I'm going round in circles , logical arguments are not my strong point (repeating things obviously is... )

Hi to everyone else, and good luck with the anger/sadness oneplusone, its good to have feelings, and your post the other day made me well up re dd cold hands, so pleased for you.

Also, again please don't think that my problems are somehow worse than yours, Smithfield, because when I read about your mother at the birth of your baby, I wonder if my mother would have behaved as terribly as that. Maybe not, I think..., but then again, can't be sure!

Oneplusone, I know what you mean about the rage. I really thought I might hurt my father when I saw him last. He was just pushing all my buttons, winding me up, making me re-live my childhood. Then when I accused him (and her) of being abusive he told me "Sakura, thats so sad", as in 'thats so sad Sakura, that you are so fucked up that you remember your lovely childhood so wrongly' I swear, its not safe for him if I'm alone with him

Hi Sakura!

That's got me thinking 'good mother bad mother'. Does that also add up with the 'black and white' vision of the world I have? tho I am learning about grey too now... Shame bout the long post...I'm sure it was insightful as always. Tho we shall never know now

Sakura, i feel exactly the same, it's not safe for my mum if she comes near me as i feel i could literally beat her up. It was my middle sister's wedding last year and i didn't go because i didn't want to see my parents. My younger sister asked my i couldn't just go for my sister's sake and i said that if i went there would be a murder at the wedding which would have spoilt my sister's big day {shock]. At that time i was very angry at my dad, not it's my mum.

I have spent the afternoon punching the sofa which i know sounds mad but it really seemed to get the anger out. I remember the suggestions in Divorcing a Parent but a lot of them weren't practical for me, not with the DC's around and the neighbours next door. I feel like screaming obsceneties at my mum but there are no fields around here where i could do that!

I am actually surprised that i feel so mucb anger towards my mum, but i think now that it's just because she played her 'victim' role so well that she had me completely fooled until now.

It actually feels good to feel this anger and to know how i feel towards my mum. A lot of the time i haven't known how i feel about her so it's good to finally 'reach' my feelings about her.

I think all this time i have been turning the anger in onto myself and it has been causing my eczema. I never turned to drugs or alcohol or anything, i just stored it up inside me.

Like smithfield, a while ago i used to turn my anger onto DH sometimes and he didn't deserve it at all. I'm glad now i can direct it where it belongs, to the pathetic, cowardly, waste of space who has posed as my mother all my life.

Ally- Thanks I needed that. Needed the strident Ally force .

Like I said earlier I need this re-enforced.
As for the good mummy/bad mummy, yes I think you are right re black and white.
I saw a pyschologist whilst o/seas, but sadly only went the once. Looking back she was amazing. I was having problems at work and within one session she deducted this was all due to my seeing things in black and white due to my upbringing. Also that when in an authoritarian environment (like the one I was in at work) I would have something tantamount to a panic attack as it was so like the environment I had as a child.

RE ANGER- always thought I had great access to anger but now Im not so sure....WHY dont I feel angry about her standing over me whilst I was having contractions repeating 'aplogise' over and over again?
Ive cried a lot over the years, but never felt angry at them? Although I know I've acted out anger. Failing at everything I think was me being angry as a teen? But that wa hurting me not them.
Think part of me was conditioned to feel it wasnt safe to display anger at them cos I'd get it ten times worse. But then I 'do' display anger at my mum, verbally I get quite aggressive.
Haven't thought about it....why cant I feel.
like oneplusone and get really bloody mad?

Sakura- Thankyou. I do have an issue validating my abuse, but it also occurred to me that when I read your posts Im very moved and I actually visualy see you as you were the, as a little vulnerable girl.
Im wondering if thats me getting in touch with my feelings Hadnt thought but it's something to ponder.
I think of myself as very hard faced and prickly now, but as a child I was very soft and loving but I had lost sight of that somehow. Maybe when I read your posts I get back in touch with her then.
Also -I didnt realise how larger than life I have made my mum. I think maybe that I see 'her' also in your posts ....the big scary monster, dominating, bullying...suffocating.

Hi, this has moved so fast again and I haven't caught up properly, but just wanted to echo everything Sakura said( me too with teh dangerous situations, btw )and to remind you, Smithfield, that it is not your job to look after your mother. Let someone else do it.

I too still have feelings for my mother, I wouldn't want her to come to any harm, but I have come to quite a lot of harm by being part of that family and my job now is to protect myself and therefore my own family.

What I do have is a lot more realisation of my treatment of the boys.

This afternoon DS2 had a friend over and I thought that DS1 could go on the computer and DS2 could play with friend. Of course silly me, DS2 and friend wanted to watch DS1 on the computer. I told DS1 that he had to get off the computer, totally unfair and DS1 quite rightly hit out at me and screamed at me. I humilated DS1 all because things hadn't gone how I planned them. Very controlling and inflexible - just like my childhood.

But afterwards when I realised what I had done, my apology was heartfelt and I explained why I had done what I did. He listened to me intently.

I feel that I am on a personal journey and my parents can choose whether to come along for the ride but that from now onwards my rules pervade. Whether they can make the switch I am not sure, time will tell.

Sorry for hijacking this thread at the moment, but have to let of some steam now.
So....I don't know where we are now on the whole 'health scare scenario'. As far as Im aware she had the tests/op on monday.

Last night phone rang at 9pm. I let it ring out(sixth sense). 1471-number witheld. 5 mins later my mum rings DH's mobile (this time her number flashes up). We decide to ignore it.

This am 9am, phone rings. I let it ring out. 1471 - Its mum.

I ring DH and he says mum has rang him and left a message (the only place he can leave a message currently.)
The reason she has taken to ringing DH's mobile is that she was told by DH 'I' no longer have a mobile as Im now on Mat leave and phone goes back to company. I do still have phone but its restricted use, not going to tell her that though.

Her message is to announce 'SHE' needs to know wether she can come up this weekend or the following weekend. OH AND....that she has bought a new mobile for me, which she will bring!

Arrrrrg-

Is she REALLY this thick skinned?
OR
Is she being a bulldozer of a mother (nice term Atilla)

Yes I know what you are going to say...'I need to ask?' The woman has a 1st class degree from Cambridge FFS, she is anything but stupid. She IS baldrick!

I guess Ive never observed her behaviour from a detached position before like this! I always became too embroiled in it to witness it as it really is. Roll on therapy session tommorrow!

Please guys Help me stay in adult mode here.

I am definately in touch with my anger right now. Not quite at the beat up your mummy dearest stage ( oneplusone]. But definately at the 'back the F* of mother stage'.
AND- as I said earlier, where is the concern for her own health right now? Shouldnt she be more concerned with that. Does she intend that she has the results by the time she visits me???

Smithfield - you so do not need this. Not really sure what to say, you have a baby growing inside you and you need to be calm. Having mum there will not make you calm and her being around at the birth last time was a total disaster for you.

Well you know the answer is NO, but I do know how hard it is to say NO to a NPD who isn't used to it and how shit it makes you feel. Can DH just leave a text/message saying - no it isn't convenient and you want to leave it until after the birth as you needs loads of rest at the moment.

You have to think of yourself and your family now.