"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

[Pages]

This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

It was Attila, Ally. Definitely on this thread somewhere.

"Stretching the truth" is actually kinder than what I thought... again, don't want to diss ooohh get me too!)your mum Smithfield, but it IS a bit of a coincidence, isn't it?

Thanks Pages! (no one can say we're behind the times!).

Thanks Attila for typing this out

Oneplusone - my mother did the 'we're not young anymore' and 'at our time of life'...hang on...I think I can hear the violin being played.... as for khama...well you get what you give. If you want a good relationship with your children when they are adults you are their for them as children as good trusting respectful loving parents. Simple.

My mother also said that she felt my not being with her was like being 'tied to a post and flogged to death'. She was in amateur dramatics.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Obviously you have not confronted yet Smithfield, you have a bit on your plate (quite a bit by now I would imagine ) but some of this will still be of use. I certainly feel better for going through it again. And to talk about me again...I'll give my mothers responses because I think, even before I do it she ticked each box, which may also be helpful to you...I find it helps to hear other peoples experiences which help validate mine iyswim.

1. It never happened

Misinterpreted my examples of her behaviour (I gave three).

1. It was your fault.

I was dirty she even found someone with twins to ask and validate that some children are 'dirtier' than others. Thereby justifying her constant carping on about it and sneering behaviour. Ooo...still got a sore point there!

1. I said I was sorry.

Well she did apologise in general after her 9 page denial of my experience and chunter about hers. She's not made any further apologies.

1. We did the best we could.

Well they did have enough money when I was growing up so my mother turned it round about how bad their childhood's were compared to mine. In fact 3 pages of A4 as I recall.

1. Look what we did for you.

Textbook. 3 pages of A4 again. Majority of it true.

1. How can you do this to me.

Gosh how many permutations down this route? We're old, we've not much to look forward to, You've upset the relatives, everything is grey now, 'been tied to a post and flogged to death' etc. As you can tell, this is my mothers strong point.

I will be pleased if someone's parent can top my mothers 'being flogged to death'. But I doubt anyone's mother is mental enough...

Okay, gotta go again...!!

allyxxx

Is there a bigger trophy than the blue ribbon one for longest post ever?

There again, I did cheat a bit nicking Attila's hard work

Ally90, i totally agree with you. If our parents wanted us to care for them and look after them in old age, they should have cared about us and looked after us in our 'young age'. Simple. You reap what you sow, that's what i told my parents.

My dad's response when confronted with his physical violence towards me as a child was 'that was the way kids were brought up in the 70's'. This was in front of my DH who was also brought up in the 70's and who's parents never laid a finger on him (well i think his mum used to chase him with a wooden spoon but i don't think she ever caught him!). In my letter to my dad i did point out that DH was brought up in the 70's and he wasn't beaten - to which i got no response.

Crikey, tons of posts since I was here last, I'll have to take a leaf out of a certain well-prepared indivdual and make notes

Hope you're all ok, I'll post with more thought tomorrow!

Well-prepared? Organised? Oooh - do you mean me, VS? (said in Monica-from-Friends whiny voice) - can I have the blue ribbon back from Ally please? . Btw I can also speak two other languages, am a good swimmer and can sing and play the piano well(curtseys) - oh dear, the life of an over-achiever, eh?

Being flogged to death is pretty hard to beat, Ally. Mine was (when I confronted her illogical argument with a bit of logic), "I'm too old and frail for all this!" Oh, and "When I was ill last year..." She wasn't ill. She had an op and was fine a week later. I've had about six over the years. (A caesarian section is actually a pretty serious one). I've never used any of them as an excuse to treat people like dirt, fail to be accountable for that, and then get the entire family to stop speaking to them. But maybe that's just me...

Smithfield, I hope we haven't offended you by mistrusting your mum's intentions. I know that even after everything they've done, we all still love our mothers in our hearts.
We just wanted to let you know that if it was our mothers who had suddenly become ill, then we wouldn't trust them with a bargepole, and because we don't know your mother, we can only go by our gut reaction to how we would feel and think if our mother had become ill at the end of our pregnancy IYSWIM

Sorry, should add. Even though we may still love our mothers in our hearts, I still believe that they don't love us in the way a mother should- thats the hard part. THe fact that we want to be loved back, but aren't.

Yes, Smithfield, come back and tell us you are okay..? We also feel very protective over YOU, and don't want you to be spending these last few weeks worrying about her and feeling guilty...especially after she managed to wreck your first labour.

Hi Ally,

Have only just gotten around to reading this thread again.

Glad you found the stuff that was posted by myself re toxic parents reactions to confrontation. No, you did not cheat at all!

Smithfield

Hope you're okay too. Am wondering how you are doing.

Good grief. I think my mum and dad use the Toxic Parents book as some kind of MANUAL!!

On last seeing my dad I got this terrible, sorrowful story (and it is sad, but NO excuse for anything) about how he grew up not knowing his dad and when he was in hospital aged 4 (in 1945), grandad arrived in his full uniform and my dad felt really nervous. He had only met him once before. So they just talked about the football cards my grandad had bought with him .

That (not talking about stuff, desperately finding distractions etc when your borderline wife is abusing your children) has pretty much set a pattern for my dad's life. But instead of acknowledging what it has done to his daughters, he wants sympathy from us for his neglected childhood. I don't deny that he deserves it, but NOT from us.

Smithfield - echoing what Sakura said about your mum. And as Pages said, we're all feeling protective of pg lady! Let us know how your doing...

Pages, s'pose you can have blue ribbon back and you speak TWO languages?! Is that Sane English and Insane English? the special language we use to communicate with family members...

DomesticGoddess - Just reading Nigella at the moment...'

Yes, Ally, my Sane English is now of course much better than my Insane English, which is a bit rusty.

Hi there

Sorry for not posting sooner but it seems every time I sit in front of the computer right now either bub goes stir crazy kicking and wriggling, or ds wants the loo (ds is just going through the whole potty/toilet training atm).

Ally - thanks for the injection of humour I really did lol at Baldrick comment. I shared it with Dh later and he had a chuckle too.
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I am a bit at all of your stories. Sakura I felt so sad at thinking of you being in a car accident and not feeling the need to tell your own mother. Ally once again you made me smile re the '..flogged to death'.
Then again it isnt funny because I'm guessing yet 'again' your mother took your stongest feelings and emotions and made it all about her, placing herself in position of victim.

I guess that is the crunch of any of these stories, how they manage to make it 'all' about them.

It has given me a lot to think about. I keep thinking 'surely' she wouldnt stoop 'that' low!
Then a little voice inside says, but what basis do you have to trust this woman at all.... other than the fact I call her mother?
What a terrible admission, but then again she has done enough terrible things in order to invoke such an admission.

BTW- I have stayed strong and avoided temptation to ring. If this (whole thing) is just an antic I guess only time will tell.

Pages and Sakura- you mentioned feeling inconsistent with regard to your mothers. I dont think the examples you give show any inconsistancy at all. I think our mothers have the ability to be there for us when it is on 'their' terms. A breakup or man trouble brings us back into their hemisphere again, so of course they welcome that with open arms.
Pages maybe your mum felt like she was a bit like the queen holding court when you came to her for advice. It probably did appeal to her ego.

My big inconsistency I had struggled with for a long time, was my mothers dedication to my dancing lessons.
She took me 3x a week religiously and to all the dance festivals.
It only hit me very recently and hit me hard, that 'I' in fact had 'Never' wanted dance classes. It had been'her' ambition for me. I went along to please her, ever fearful of hearing what an ungrateful selfish child I was if I didnt want to go. But even going to the classes couldnt satisfy her, because I was never good enough at it.
I never got praised only critisised, even if I 'did' come away with a medal. I was never 'free' to just enjoy the experience.
I think in the end I rebelled by simply giving up and not trying. When I look back those classes were filled with NPD mums and their long suffering daughters. Bending themselves out of shape to fulfil thier mothers dreams.
So why did she determine I should be the dancer of the family?
I remember getting my second or third report at primary school, it was filled with grade c's and she sighed and said; 'Oh well I guess we have to accept you will 'always be average'.
Maybe she needed me to excel at something else in order to redress the balance of disapointment over my pre-destined academic career.

Standing up for yourself IMO, is a very important step, I know DP sometimes thinks I'm tactless or uncaring in some form to other peopels needs and wants, only lately he has been having a lot of crap at work and I've repeatedly told him to 'stand up for himself, dont let people walk all over you, be polite but assertive' etc and seem quite unsympathetic towards his problems. I must ahve told him a million times that I can't allow myself to be treated like that anymore, I found a point in my life where I thought, 'you know what, I'm putting me first now, and I'm not taking this crap from anyone, I deserve just as much as the enxt person and unless you treat me with an amount of respect, I shan't grant you that either' I think that sometimes because of that decision I sometimes seem somehwat harsh towards other peoples problems, but the way I see it now is that as adults we choose what to allow to happen to us, and standing up for ourselves is probably the most important lesson we can learn so toomanystuffedbears I think you made a great breakthrough there.

Earlybird, I personally would probably try to have a talk with your mother, do you feel you can forgive her? or understand why she did what she did? Ideally that would be the best closure for both of you, I think although I never want to have a single breath in the same company as my Mother I can understand why she did what she did, I don'#t agree with it, I don't accept it and I don't forgive her, but I do understand, I think if I was in contact with ehr and had to have that last conversation I would tell her thatthere was something I wanted her to listen to, not speak, just listen and that if she could do that for me it would be the last I ever spoke of it, I'd then tell her that I know things that happened whilst I was a child were not the way they should've been, that I know as well as she does we both remmeber what a terribel relatinship we had and that although I will never forgive her for what she did and allowed to happen, I can understand and I'm just glad that withotu ehr infuence or maybe because of it, I have finally become someone I can be proud of but I needed to confront this so I cna say goodbye without there being any unresolved issues. She may want to continue the conversation, she may not, but if you feel you can have that type of conversation without the need for answers then I encourage you to go for it, however be prepared for her to answer questions you dont ask and to answer them in such a way you may feeel that she is still acting the martyr. You say "perhaps she simply needs to live her final weeks/months at peace", it isn't about what she needs, it's about what you need.

MissTakenID- firstly wow, what a name, would that be a sign of how you feel now? I certainyl felt like my Mother and Stepfather didnt ever know me and maybe a case of mistaken identity would be an easy way to describe why? They would often tell peopel I was the opposite of what I actually felt I was, I remember being called a slut and a atroublemaker when in fact I had never even kissed a boy and was top of my class at school! Unsurprisingly I did go on to become promiscuous and get into a lot fo trouble!! My mother was never physical towards me, that was my stepfathers doing, she woudl stand by and allow it or give me the silent treatment, almost liek she delegated to someone who I now realise she saw as a lesser being than her (I used to think he was the one in charge, bnut that was what she wanted me to think). You can talk about it here, say as much or as little as you want, I would imagien your dad feels some form of guilt if he wasn't a partaker but an enabler, in allowing it to continue so it must be hard for him to talk about it, but this is your life and your feelings, if you need to talk about it, you must.

Cheezypeez, your problems arent zilcho, I think of all the first few posts I've read, everyone of us has said that! Every persons problems, to them are the worst ever, ebcause they have to deal with them, I'm sure even those of us that others believe had the worst childhood could look at it in reltsion to real world tragedies and say 'at least we werent that person' just as much as we can say 'mine was worse than yours' IMO, comparison is only good for one thing, and that is to find common ground with others.

Partsky, I too find myself sometimes repeatign thigns my mother said or did with my DD, as soon as I see it happening I make a conscious effort to change the way the secanrio is going, and immediately explain to her my feelings at that moment in time, then ask her to explain ehrs so we can talk it through and get rid of any anger that I feel may explode in me. I feel terribly for ehr, especially as I dont feel the same anger towards my DS, I know that it is partly because when DS was born I was already aware of everythign and had delat with much of my past so was able to put everythign into our relationship without my parents and mine clouding it.

Pages and TOOMANYSTUFFEDBEARS, ANOTHER MAD ONE HERE!! I have been dragged along to mental hospitals since the age of 14! Surprising how many of the people that actually know me think I'm pretty bloody sane, and one of the more together people they know, though I sometimes think being slightly unhinged makes life all the more exciting!

Time to go I'll read the rest later
xxxxx

AND - thank you 'all' of you for you support and concern for me. Makes me feel quite teary to think other people care so much. Can you imagine bringing this to anyone in RL. The response would be; 'Well of course you must ring (look of disbelieve emoticon) she is your mother!'

Hi all, need to offload some thoughts, sorry if i sound miserable again, have had a bit of an emotional morning. Something triggered off another wave of emotion about my mother (or lack thereof). I feel so sad at the thought that i have never known what it is like to have felt a mother's love, to feel completely secure in the knowledge that my mother loved me unconditionally and unselfishly, that she would always be there for me, on my side when nobody else was. I have never known that kind of love and I never will and that knowledge fills me with grief. I know DH loves me and the DC's but of course there is only one person who can love you like a mother. My counsellor has talked about 'self parenting'- perhaps that will take me some time to fully understand, i certainly don't feel i am there yet. I still have a need in me for my mother to love me, it comes and goes and is stronger on some days than others. But it never goes away and sometimes it just overwhelms me.

Maybe i can feel it more this morning as it's just me and DS at home whereas at the weekend DH and DD are also around and i am not really left alone with my thoughts and feelings. And DH and DD do make me feel very loved by their words and actions I suppose.

I hope this gets easier to deal with in time. I also feel like i ought to write a letter to my mother to tell her exactly how i feel. The main reason for this is that in my previous letter to my parents which i wrote almost a year ago i was almost completely focussed on my dad and his abuse. At that time I hadn't even come close to any sort of significant realisation about my mum. But now i have realised what a huge, overwhelming role my mother played in my unhappy childhood i feel i ought to write another letter to redress the balance and lay the responsibility at her door and not just my dad's. In fact now, i feel my dad played a far lesser role than my mum in my childhood and it doesn't seem right that the way things stand at the moment all the responsibilty seems to lie with him as per my first letter.

I know what triggered things off today. I read something in the paper about the reality of new motherhood, how PND is so common but not recognised, how lonely and inadequate and scared you feel. I felt all of those things when i had my DD and my mum was around a lot of the time in the early months when i was at my worst, and during that time she never once asked me how i was, never gave any indication that she was aware of how low i was feeling, never gave me any support. All she cared about was her grandchild and whilst she was waltzing around on top of the world i was totally miserable and she just didn't give a monkeys (to put it politely).

And that is basically the story of my life, my mum has always been oblivious to or, more likely, has chosen to ignore my emotions, for the simple reason that to do so is easier for her and as smithfield so perfectly put it, my mother always did what was easier for her than what was best for me.

The more i think about it the more i think i will write and send my mother a letter, i want her to know just what a crap mother she was. I know she is too arrogant and ignorant to ever accept any responsibility for what she has put me through but i know I'll feel better for getting my feelings out. So first chance i get i am gonna get typing!

Hi oneplusone- Sorry you are feeling so upset. I know you read a lot of Alice Miller and in her book '...gifted child' she talks of having to mourn for what we never got in our childhood. We never got the unconditional love from them and now it's too late. that kind of love can only be given in its truest form as babies/children. So I guess we missed out and this is a terrible loss.

You are in mourning and that, although incredibly tough, (especially when trying to deal with running a home and dc's)is a good thing. It is the only way to heal that loss. I think someone wrote on here about grief having a shelf life. I thought that was a great image to hold onto. You dont want to leave all that grief sitting on the shelf, at some point you will still need to face it come what may. I know its hard now, but it will get better. Grief wont last forever if you work through its process now.

You wrote a lovely analogy to me about depression. And I really believe depression comes when we begin to shut down from our emotions(indeed that was what I began to do a week ago) . We cant deal with such strong emotions and our childhoods made us adept at disconnecting anyway... so we opt out.
Just this weekend (before I'd heard my mothers news) I'd had a good cry in the morning and Dh looked bemused when he saw me singing along to a tune on the radio.
He was bemused because he hadnt seem me enjoy music for a long while. I suddenly realised just 'how' disconnected I'd become in order to keep my real feelings at bay.

Dont know if this helps at all, but what Im trying to say is you must feel your sadness now in order to heal. Embrace it for the good thing it is. This is you finally getting in touch with yourself.
I think the letter is a good idea to explore and feel your emotions further, but I would perhaps hold off sending it. You are vulnerable right now. You need all your energy to focus on you. Dont become distracted from the hard work you are doing for yourself now by your mother.

Thanks smithfield, you are right. I suppose i always get caught out because some days i feel so happy that i think i've got past the worst of it and then i have a bad day and realise there's still a way to go.

I know going through this is healing, will hold onto that.

Hope you're feeling ok.

Have to go now, back later.x

oneplusone- How are you feeling today? I'd re-post this link for you here
It has info on reparenting excersises.

Any thoughts from anyone as to wether we should be looking at this whilst still going through the grieving/letting go phase?

*thought I'd.
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Im feeling a LOT of guilt today. After feeling relatively strong about it all y'day. I felt myself drifting toward a guilt slump last night.

I know everything everyone has said makes absolute sense, BUT at the time did you all feel pangs of guilt? And how did you deal with this?

I am so tempted to call her today, she would have had the op/tests last night. Makes me feel sad that she might be going through this alone.
Then again I know that is 'her' fault in a way. If she had had the relationships she 'could' have had with her kids then she would I'm sure have at least one of us there with her right now. Here is a quote from a book Im reading called 'Positive Parenting ...raising children with self esteem'. Found it interesting as I bought this to focus on 'my' parenting skills, but found I could relate to it on a whole other level as well.

'...if you are unpleasant to children, and have seriously hurt them emotionally or physically, there is a cushion of love, a suspension of judgement, and so strong a wish, or need, to believe in you, that they and their relationship with you can take several knocks without significant damage. The danger only comes when that reserve of giving you the benefit of the doubt is used up. Then, to protect themselves from the uncomfortable conclusion that they are not worth loving, they seperate from you emotionally and are no longer willing to play a part in a relationshop that exposes them to such anguish.'

But part of me also thinks; if I withdraw any empathy or compassion for her, does that make me just like her?
Such conflicting thoughts.Arrrrg so confusing.