"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

[Pages]

This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

Hi Pages, glad the computer analogy made sense to you, don't think it did to my DH, he looked totally bemused by my ramblings!

Btw, thank you for responding to my question about your counsellor, I currently travel around 3 hours each way to see my counsellor so yours might not be too far away for me! I will CAT you once i figure out how to!

I hope you will have a look at Alice Miller's website, the bit i really like is 'Reader's Mail'. Every day she publishes a letter she has received and her reply, I find it very illuminating (borrowing your fab word!) and always learn something new every time i visit her site.

hello ladies... I have spent ages here reading this thread and recognising symptoms from my own childhood... with a few tears along the way and lots of smiles at your successes (prickly ds!!). I hope that you won't mind if I continue to follow along?

My parents were abusive - emotionally and physically. I see so many aspects of this creeping in to my own life / relationships / parenting. I am very controlling and my feelings are always on a rollercoaster... perhaps a little conditional.

I have never dealt with my emotions... instead, at one point in my life, I chose to draw a line in the sand and leave it all behind me. I don't think it really works though.

Anyways... I have noted some of the resources that you have recommended so I am off to do a little research .

Pages- your last paragraph of your Fri 11 Jan 08 10:00:58 post rings bells for how Middle Sister treats me.
"She only gives what SHE wants or chooses to give-whether it is love or presents-and so it is always on her terms."
and ..."everyone else was wrong and {she}was right, unless someone ...said she wasn't right, in which case that [person] became the problem."

With the background of having a mother that could not demonstrate feelings to me...having them or especially what to do next, rendering me non-existent, invisible...
now Middle Sister, self perceived matriarch, does have feelings and boy does she let everyone know it-at the expense of everyone else's feelings!
In the past-(and presently), whenever I would point out anything to her, she would forcefully defend her position and immediately end the conversation completely diminishing and dismissing me. So my opinions and more importantly feelings - became buried even deeper because she effectively 'shut me up'. Because I did not express my feelings, they eventually became brief little shudders in my thoughts and then because I wasn't able to use them at all, ever, my feelings disappeared altogether (why bother even having them?).
So I am the silent one. In a group, I'm the silent one, listening far more than I speak. When I do muster courage and speak, I often say the wrong thing or say it the wrong way because I do not know how to express my feelings.

Middle Sister's treatment of me is casting a web of effects over my family. As NPD matriarch she of course wants to and thrives on having effects over my family. However, the resulting effects are bad. Bad, bad, bad.

And Middle Sister's narcissism continued(s) in my adult years- treating me as subordinate, lesser, like a street urchin castoff. The insidious nature of NPD is through so much attention: I MUST EXIST !! !! !! but the attention is not for me, it is to put me down and down and down and to control and manipulate me for her own ego power festival. I am the well that never runs dry for her-such dedication on my part. The depths of my sarcasm are uncharted. I FEEL angry !

Of course my children are affected. I have loved them and given then full 100% attention (I do know not to hover and not be micro-managing like MS!) But the abyss of my emotional feelings is/was still there. I could/can provide feelings validations for youngsters because I can have/express feelings on a simple level. But my dc are now teenagers-definitely a more advanced-moving into adult- level and my shortcoming can not be sidestepped and I can not guide/teach/or support them in this arena.
Presently, my ds (15) can not express his feelings because I can not (could not-am working on it) offer him the pattern of process. I just don't have it-it is a void in my brain from being invisible as a child.
Ds has anxiety and he started counseling/therapy a couple of months ago. He expressed suicidal thoughts before Christmas and we are having him evaluated for meds. The counselor talked to dh and I a couple of times to get to know us and ds's context. Yesterday, in fact, the counselor came to the strategy of splitting the sessions 50/50 with me since my telling her of my childhood and Middle Sister.

The counselor did say it is not healthy for me to be around my Middle Sister. I needed to hear that and I know that is the message you and your experiences here have been saying all along. It is hard work though-habits die hard and guilt- but I think that deep inside me I know the truth and my truth can not involve her anymore. So I am back to my thinkings of cutting her out completely -the counselor will help me resolve that. I started on this thread (old one) saying I didn't want to cut her out, or didn't think I needed to. That may have just been the tip of the ice berg. I need to find out if emotional distance will be enough since she does live 80 miles away and we are not physically with her that often. If I should cut her out, then I need to cut her out, without qualification.

I see my mountain now...I need to feel my emotions and acknowledge them and verbalize them.

Sorry this is garbled rambling. I owe you all here huge amounts of gratitude for encouraging therapy and books. You really made a difference for me and my family.

Thanks for the responses everyone!

It does help to know that other people think its not wrong to 'deny' my child his/her 'family'. I felt it was the right thing, but there's always that doubt!

Oneplusone-the computer analogy, yes. This is why I wake up in the middle of the night stirring my stew .

Pages- on "self-reference"
This brings to my mind the circumstance after my mom died, my sisters and I and Dad became close. Much less fussing, even though Middle Sister still had her pattern of Queen holding Court. Anyway, I think she worshiped Dad and very very often decisions included some phrasing about "What Dad would have done"- and especially after he died ('98)-"Dad would've been proud of me". She still does it.

I used to do it, too. But finally, I was like-enough! This is MY decision-my reasoning-my choice. Dad is gone-may he rest in peace-but this decision is coming from me.
That was a seed of self identification, that I exist and exist as an adult.

That was maybe 5 years ago...MS's emotionally eroding techniques adapted to a more subtle but not less powerful form of manipulation.

Oneplusone, kaz33- IMHO, the milestone for you is that you have validated your child on terms and in circumstances your child can understand. You are a good parent. I feel happy for you, nay, thrilled. I have had similar experiences.

Oneplusone-also imho, try not to be down about 'sad' days. This is proof that you exist and you can and are justified to feel and your feelings are being expressed and I am learning that is healthy.

Welcome Kiwibella, I think trying to be in control is common when you have had so little or no control as a child. I agree that just wanting to draw a line under your past is not enough. Alice Miller explains why brilliantly in "The Drama of Being a Child" (Also translated as "The Drama of the Gifted Child")

TMSB, if your counsellor says you shouldn't be round her then you really have the endorsement you need. I often read your posts and wonder what on earth is in it for YOU (and your DC) in maintaining this contact with her. You have the support of your eldest sister. You could always just tell her that while DS is going through counselling you need some space as a family and will be in touch with her when you are ready. I am sure her nose will be out of joint but it really won't do her any harm to realise that she is not the centre of your universe and to focus on her own life for a while.

DH was really sweet last night, sorry if this sounds a bit gushing but it made me feel really good. I was reading Alice Miller and said to him that it was a no win situation for me when anything went wrong in my family, as there was no way I would ever come out of any conflict without being landed with the blame. So I had no option but to accept responsibility for everything that went on, or not be around them. He nodded and said nothing.

He came into the room a couple of hours later and said "Pages, there are four basic words that I would use to decribe who you are - beautiful, intelligent, loving and funny. Leaving older brother out of the equation, you are the only one of your family who has all those qualities in abundance. Your sister is I suppose quite pretty, your mum is reasonably intelligent, your brother is a very funny guy. Other than that, they are nothing compared to you. Certainly none of them are loving. You are a genuinely nice person and far nicer than any of them". Awww.

Pages that is lovely, how wonderful of your DH to tell you that he thinks you're amazing. He is truly your 'real' family as he obviously loves, values and cherishes you. Your 'other' biological family have lost you and it is truly their loss.

I agree with your opinion regarding TMSB, i think the only option one has when it comes to toxic friends or family is to cut them out of your life. Life is too short to waste on trying and inevitably always failing to find an antidote to their poison as there is no antidote. The only way is not to be in contact with toxic people be they parents, siblings, friends, whoever. It is hard I know to take what may seem like a drastic step, but once it is done, you feel so liberated, free and at peace, i for one wished i had done it sooner with my own family.

Sorry, am rambling again, but am very happy for you Pages that your DH appreciates what he has in you.

Feeling very confused, my dh spoke to my db today. Well, actually he was speaking to my sil first and she said; 'Has Smithfield been in touch with Smithfields mum yet?'
She went on to say that mum was going in to hopsital to have a lump removed from her breast, or investigate/run tests on lump in her breast.

My Db came on the phone dh heard him telling sil off and said to dh that smithfield was not meant to know about this, beacuse she has only 4 weeks to go in pg, and 'even' my mum had said not to tell me.

Apparently mum found lump two days ago. I have had no verbal contact with her since christening in November, despite her attempts to get in touch over the past couple of months.
She has persisted in ringing up to a couple of times a day and also ringing dh's mobile and I had only responded via text to say we were busy and would be in touch soon.
I know she has only known for a couple of days but my guilt is needless to say immense. Coupled with other emotions which I daren't even write here. . I must be a bad person surely to feel this?

Db does not yet know that I know about mum.

smithfield, this is a difficult situation for you. I can fully understand you feeling guilty. You say you daren't post what other emotions you are feeling. I have felt that way about posting some of the emotions i felt about DD as they seemed so terrible but i went ahead anyway and i have recieved so much support and understanding. Please post about all your emotions as your feelings are so important, you should use them to guide you in how to deal with this situation.

I know it's not exactly the same but about 6 months after i cut off my parents my dad wrote to me trying to persuade me to talk to them saying he was losing his eyesight and hearing. At the time i was still very angry and wrote back saying i had nothing to say to them. But even if he wrote to me now in a similar way i know that if i opened the door a crack my parents would come rushing in and it for me would be a major setback on this journey.

I don't feel able to offer any real advice other than to say trust your feelings and let them guide you. If all this has happened today allow yourself to sleep on it overnight and think about things in the morning.

Please post again and let us know how you are. x

Smithfield, you have nothing to feel guilty about. You aren't supposed to know anyway (or are you? ). Sorry to be cynical...

The lump may amount to nothing in any event, I heard that a large proportion are benign.

My mother also had some medical problems last year when all this was going on and the entire family used it as a stick to beat me with, so please be careful that you are not being sucked in here. You are conditioned to feel this sort of guilt but have no reason at all to feel guilty.

If you wanted to you could send her a simple card saying you hope all goes well with the tests and will be thinking of her and will call soon. But most important of all, put you and your own health and that of your unborn baby FIRST and please do not use up valuable energy and the last few weeks fretting about her health and what you should or shouldn't have done.

Thanks Pages and Oneplusone.
I am feeling anger and even hate towards middle sister and am now believing she is the last person on this earth that I would ever owe an apology to.
Oldest Sister says I'll have a harder time than she because I have spent more time with Middle Sister in recent years (thus am 'closer?') and that I am a nice person.
I have a guilt thread thinking that it could easily be me who is in her single/alone shoes, so my over abundance of empathy for her masks her complete lack of it. I told dh that and he said I would never be alone the way she is.

I do not want to share my deepest thoughts and feelings with MS anymore and so:
I have not told Middle Sister that ds (or I) is in counseling and do not plan to. From Mother's issues, mental health subjects are a taboo subject. Oldest Sister had some counseling years ago, she recently told me, about feeling guilt/responsibility for Mom's problems/death. I have come to have courage to face it-need for help, accept modern advances in the field, and press forward. But I don't think MS could accept it and I know she would label me as being 'genetically crazy' and can just see her matriarchal posture rise in the name of superiority. (That would be rather ironic.)

But why would I care about that? I obviously have more work to do in the detachment field.
And counselor said I am not responsible for any reaction she may have anyway-that is her problem.
The proverb
"You made your bed, now lie in it."
applies to her. And continuing with her-it is my bed and I have to lie in it.

This overall awareness is still pretty new and I am still processing the reality and consequences of it all. But you are right, at the end of the day, she is still poison.

I am glad you have a fantastic dear husband, Pages.
Smithfield- Use caution and take care. I can only imagine such circumstances but shudder for you all the same. I hope you are feeling well.

...easily could be me in the single/alone shoes...
I don't mean to suggest my marriage is in trouble, I only mean that I know I am lucky to have an excellent man for my dh.

Pages... what your dh has said is absolutely lovely!! How thoughtful.

Smithfield... hope you feel better after sleeping on this news. If you decide that you want to know how your mum got on, would it help for your dh keep in contact with db / sil??

I'm finding the Alice Miller info very interesting... and the Sam Vaknin pages intriguing. It is all a lot to think about atm.

Thanks, once again, for your support .
It just seems a bit surreal atm. This is 'the' first time I have been 'intentionally' so inaccessable to my mother.
My dh has been supportive and said that we do not have to tell them that I now know, and that he will take the flack and say he wants to keep me cacooned from this at present and he will also ring DB next week to find out results.
Until we have the results I think I need to take a step back. I know this sounds hard and I will have to deal with the guilt in the meantime, but I have come a hell of a long way on this journey so far, in a short space. I know this now because if I hadn't I would be straight on the phone to her. Even DH was a bit when I said, yes I think that's what we should do.

Pages- No I dont think you are being too cynical. It crossed my mind too. If my mum had 'really' emphasised I should 'not' be told, then sil would never have said what she said (that's just not her nature). So I wonder if it was in fact db who was more insistent that I should not hear the news until after the results.
A couple of days ago dh got a message on his mobile from my mother, and she said 'it is smithfields mum here' (as if dh wouldnt know this after 8 years), it was a very insistant message that I get in touch, because of 'her' concern for me. Yet according to db she also had the news two days ago. Had she spoken to me on that evening as requested I find it difficult to believe she would not have told me. I sit bad of me to think this? Its just she has never thought to spare me anything in the past. Unless of course would be of benefit to her of course.

Sorry I will be back to write personals in a bit. baby is jumping up and down on my bladder atm.

Smithfield, no it is not bad of you to think that. I think you have probably got it in one...

SMithfield, I am going to stick my neck out here, and say that I am almost certain that the lump in the breast will turn out to be nothing. This is just classic classic behaviour- "get the attention and care away from SMithfield, who is heavily pregnant, and onto the toxic person". I may be wrong but even so, knowing that I would have lost my baby if I'd have been pregnant when my mother started playing her nasty games, I would never contact my own mother again at any point in a pregnancy. After the birth is fine (preferably 3 months after when the hormones have settled down and baby is starting to sleep properly).
My own mother is very healthy, a workaholic actually, so it would have been very hard for her to find "health" problems to force me to stop getting married, but somehow she managed to. I had a letter from her detailing the car crash she had just been in and how she need treatment for this and that. My guilt was immediately set aside, because I had been in a car crash in the summer in Portugal, quite a bad one actually- had to go to hospital for my neck and I didn't even tell my mother, because she was so disintersted in me and my life. It would have been brushed aside as being nothing, and then I'd have had to spend the rest of the conversation listening to her work problems/divorce issues . So it was easy for me to ignore her life and death car crash letter to guilt me into obeying her regarding my wedding.
But its going to be hard for you. Please try not to let her in, at least until you give birth. Don't feel guilty, please. NOthing is going to happen to your mother in the next few weeks(if its even anything- sorry but the timing of it seems so... unlikely)

PAges, you're sounding really good. Your DH, as ever, is being lovely.

Re-reading what I've just wrote, I realise that it might seem like I'm making things up because in another post I wrote that my mother loved coming to the rescue, so you would think she'd enjoy it if I needed her to talk to. But that is just one of the bizarre things about these people- the inconsistencies. Pages, what you wrote about inconsistent love being harder than consistent abuse really makes sense because it means we can try to hang onto those times they were "good". But this makes us take longer to heal and to admit the truth, and is probably why some people never will .
So in my case, in certain circumstances, my mother would "be there" for me, in the case of a broken relationship for instance, but never if it was something that I suppose would take the attention away from her. I don't know- I'm tired of workign out her inconsistencies.
Oneplusone, I totally understand and agree with the computer analogy. I've been blocking out my emotions these days, perhaps because DD has been hard work ATM, but in the past week a few have seeped through. Today I had a flashback of a nasty word my mother used to use to threaten us with violence. It came into my head so clearly, and was such a terrible, obviously abusive word that I had to check myself that it was a real memory! But it was... That word just has no place in my life now, so it seems surreal that someone would use it.
Another thing I am starting to acknowledge this week is the very real feeling of being scared around her all the time, whenever, wherever. I remember in the shoe shop once, (Clarks, of course), and the shop assistant asked what shoes I wanted and I'D seen those Clarks magic steps on TV. In a tiny, barely audible whisper, I remember trying to say "Princess shoes". My mother jumped in with a withering remark, "Pink shoes! Well, they don't have pink shoes, do you?".
The shop assistant brought out the exact shoes I was thinking of, and my mother bought them to my suprise (probably something to do with not wanting to look bad in front of the lady, rather than caring one jot about my feelings). The reason I remember this is because I was thinking how my mother never used to allow me to have decent, nice trainers as a teenager (and when you're a teenager, this is so important!) I always had the cheapest, crappiest ones (Kwik Save, honestly). I bought into her hype that I didn't need brand names, and until recently, believed that it was character building not to be like every one else. But now I think WTF were you doing in Clarkes then! She was only buying those expensive shoes as a status symbol anyway (lets be honest), and yet if it was something I felt I wanted it was insignificant, but if she thought a brand name was important then it was.

God, what a ramble, sorry. I'm just fascinated by all the petty little ways she stole my happiness, when she didn't have to. Now I have DD, and I know that if she really really wanted something nice within reason, and we could obviously afford it, then I'd let her. I'd want to make her teenage years as comfortable as possible, while at the same time boosting her self-esteem with love, so she didn't feel she had to rely on brand-name goods to feel a sense of self-worth.

Hi Smithfield (and all of the rest of you!)

Hmmm...that 'I'm going to die but not going to tell recalcitrant dd because I'm a martyr brave person' old chestnut.

Typical Toxic Parent moment she's having!! And the 'oh don't tell Smithfield because she's 4 wks away from giving birth (and has not contacted me despite all my phonecalls and texts since November)' baloney! She's about as cunning as Baldrick in Blackadder. I've had 2 similar experiences...

1. At 28 had biggest row with mother since I was 18/19 and first started rebelling. I was (unbeknown to her) in early wks of pregnancy and probably 'slightly' hormonal. Her reaction was to wait for me to get in contact. Then when I didn't, come round to my house with my father unannounced to tell me all the usual 'you know I love you, we will think about what you have said but everything was done fairly etc' did not get the result she hoped for. I did not cave in, I stayed aloof from her, she was made to do all the running and yet more emotional blackmail. When this did not get the usual result she went a little bit further. Every saturday me and my dh went down to his mum and dads, for the morning only, with my mobile on me. We're come back to the house after a walk and my mil comes out of the house as if she has a missile up her backside (she gets hysterical easily) 'your mothers in hospital!!' At that moment my mobile rings, my father tells me my mother was admitted with palpatations and pressure on the chest or something else vague. My immediate feeling is 'and why ring mil to tell her first?' no emotion at all. I go to hospital where my mother is undergoing all sorts of tests for heart problems, she stays an entire week. I see her once and when I got there she was nearly in tears and grateful to see me. Anyway outcome was, she was fit as a butchers dog. Her mother had died of a heart attack before age of 50 which is why she probably got admitted (and she will have known her family history would get her an admittance to hospital). She then spends rest of time of our relationship bleating on about her health and diet (again, still actually fitter than a butchers dog as she had taken up with a vengence a very heart friendly diet and taken up regular exercise). Afraid to say, just three weeks after she was released from hospital me and dh did go ahead with our secret plans (secret as in all my mates knew but family did not) and got married and announced pregnancy to her over phone . She was fine. But that's not to say that I did not have lots of qualms and palpatations myself worrying if I should go ahead with secret marriage or not!

1. Bet you forgot there was example 2 after all that! I broke all contact from my mother in feb 06 (2 years next month!! ) and my father turned up in about mar/apr time to pick up some things from the house. Since I had broken contact he had had no contact either. So I welcomed him into house, gave him a coffee, and he had brought a few items of mine (which were non threatening) but in the bag was also some things my mother had obviously slipped in there (one of which was a christening card from her to me, I was christened at a few months old so how I managed to open the envelope , back to emotional blackmail again). And my 'innocent' father's reaction... 'oh I don't know how that got there, your mother must have slipped it in when it was waiting by the door'. Even my therapist was sceptical when I told him this. At the time I disagreed. But my father's behaviour after this until Aug 06 when I broke contact with him shows that he would have gone along with this quite happily as it is something he repeatedly did after this but openly.

So, if you feel your sil would not have said if told not to say, then you are most likely correct in your assumption. Trust your feelings or try a quiz

As a mother of an 8 mth pg dd I have found a lump and am having it removed. She has not been in contact for a while.

Do I:
a) keep it to myself. Its not an emergency, I don't know the results yet, rather than cause a moments upset to my 8 mth pg dd and future gc I shall keep the news to myself until her and the baby are settled. I would not want to ruin her pregnancy with any worries even if she seems distant right now. I shall confide in someone I can trust and will understand my reasons for dd not knowing.

b) tell my ds and dil but not let dil know that 8 mth pg dd is not to know.

Your mother had various ways to deal with her news. I don't feel she chose the best way, but hey! I'm a bit weird like that!

This is your pregnancy, not your mothers, this is your time, not your mothers. This is all about YOU not her. You have done incrediably well resisting all those phone calls (bet you jump when phone's ring ). You do NOT have to find out the test results. It will cause more worry than you should have. Nothing exciting is likely to happen to your mother in the next 6 weeks (I'm giving your baby 2 weeks extra time to come out!). YOU and your baby are the important one's right now. Right now you need to be mollycoddled, not giving disturbing news. I suggest you carry on as before. Nothing has changed. Your mother is still the same person, illness will not make her a better person to be around or to know. She has expert people looking after her, so she is not neglected. This is just another test for you hun, if you intend to stay emotionally healthy you still need to keep up with the no contact including extraneous test results. She ruined the end of your last pregnancy, you have the power/control to make sure this one goes smoothly for you and your baby. Take the power back, its your decision how to feel about this news. Guilty? For what? She's being looked after very well by professionals. Or not guilty? Your 8mths pg and have to put you and your baby and your family unit first. Or ask, what does your mother want by you hearing her news?

Hope some of that helps in some way, please don't give in now to any emotional blackmail (which is what it is!) you and baby come FIRST! Sorry if I'm sounding a bit ott but I so want to protect you! But obviously you are an adult and can do that yourself...so I'll go and put away the cotton wool!

Take care xx

Sakura. I totally relate to everything you said. I sometimes too think that I might sound as if I am contradicting myself (or even being unfair to my mother) because she was so inconsistent. She has listened to me for literally HOURS as an adult, talking about DS1 or an argument with DH, and her advice was generally constructive and helpful. My childhood friends would all tell you how easy she was to talk to when we were children - how she would listen and advice about their boyfreinds, arguments with their own parents (!) etc, and my stepdad would joke (and flirt ) with them - somehow the abuse always happened behind closed doors and even in my own mind I managed to write it off as a momentary "blip" in the family's loving life. Whilst I was vaguely aware that the physical abuse was wrong, I didn't realise that the daily verbal abuse was in fact abuse, just believed that I was a clumsy, stupid and inferior being.

As with your mother Sakura, when it suited her she could turn it on (rescuing made her feel superior and needed) but it was only if it was meeting her own needs that she gave anything.

It occurred to me too Smithfield that your mother's problem might be less than it seems...

Ally, xpost with you. LOL about Baldrick!

pmsl at Baldrick too! And ally, the quizz was perfect.

Pages and Sakura. Wanted to say 'as cunning as a fox'...but that's too cunning for something so blatant! And not dissing (ooh get me and modern lingo!) you there Smithfield, when your in the thick of it all its a case of can't see woods for the trees. Been there, done it. And there's always that element of 'but she's my mum, she wouldn't do anything like that and she needs me' which is just what she is playing on now.

So more thoughts...

a) is your mother 'stretching' the truth to db and sil?
b) are they complicit in 'white' lie?
c) If it is the truth, again you've found out by 'accident' which will be no accident at all. If your dh rings and asks db for results, who do you think he's going to mention it too? What will your mothers reaction and thoughts possibly be because of this?

You don't have to do anything you don't want to do. You have time to think this one through (too much time I bet re awake at night). Do what is BEST for you and baby. There are 4 members in your family remember. Your mother can look after herself. She's not the 3rd baby on the way!

And more thoughts....

Isn't it a bit of a coincidence she's found something wrong now?

Its also occured to me that you are quite far down your path to freedom too. So your mother is likely to exhibit more toxic parent behaviours to get you back into the fold.

Some lovely person did type out the list of Toxic Parent reactions to separation on this thread and I just can't find it...if your the person who did it, can you pick it out and post again please? I've lent out my Toxic Parents...

TIA!

Interesting to read everyone's comments.

When my dad wrote to me, after I cut him off, with his sob story about losing his eyesight and hearing, I also put in my reply to him that perhaps his health problems were some sort of punishment for the abuse he inflicted on me during my childhood. I don't beleive in God personally, but perhaps there is some sort of divine retribution?

kharma