Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

1000 replies

Pages · 15/12/2007 10:52

This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

OP posts:
partsky · 10/01/2008 00:35

Thanks Sakura; it helps not to feel alone

Pages · 10/01/2008 08:23

Just a quick skim through...

Welcome Partsky - you are not alone. There is a chapter in "Toxic Parents" on dealing with dead parents which may be of use to you.

Kaz, lol at the snogging in the kitchen and feelings of joy with your dc. I can really relate to this "springtime in January" feeling as TMSB so aptly describes it. In fact it's how I started to feel around this time last year.

OneplusOne, you have come such a long way, and each of your posts is highly illuminating for me, because I think you are describing my mother and her feelings for me (or lack of) when you talk. I think the acknowldegment and acceptance that your mother didn't really love you, whilst initially deeply painful, is key to your recovery. My mother claims to love me, and in some (conditional) ways she does but there is a part of her that is still unable to do so, and I think for me, it was that realization and the acceptance that there was absoultely NOTHING I could do about that finally led to me moving on. You are doing all the right things, you are grieving your INCREDIBLE loss, and you are seeing yourself as you really are, ie all the things you thought you were (intelligent, capable, etc) but also a deeply wounded and - I have to say - amazing and resilient person.

OP posts:
Pages · 10/01/2008 08:25

Oh TMSB about the asylums, makes you shudder doesn't it. I feel my family have effectively put me in that category all my life, made me the "mad" one. Well, the lunatic has escaped the asylum, whahay!!!!!

OP posts:
kaz33 · 10/01/2008 09:31

God I am taking each day as it comes.

Last night DS2 (4) was up 3 times and couldn't settle. He was whining and complaining but instead of getting frustrated by his lack of communication and my interrupted sleep I remained calm and supportive. That was a different me and I felt very proud of myself

Its another crack in the facade, a new realisation of how love feels.

oneplusone · 10/01/2008 11:34

Pages, hi, thank you again for your support and understanding. Hello to everyone else as well, I don't have a lot of time right now so I will respond to the recent posts a bit later. As always there is something in everyone's posts that strikes a chord with me, I will need a couple of hours (or more) to go through what everyone has said and post my own thoughts. Sometimes it feels like my brain is working in slow motion and is literally creaking with trying to process all that i want to say.

But for now, Pages, you have me in tears just because you seem to understand me and all these years I have felt like those closest to me (well, those who appeared closest to me ie my family) had no idea whatsoever who i was inside. They thought i was a 'hard', 'cool headed', 'tough' person who wasn't affected by anything they could say or do, who had no feelings, who wasn't sensetive. I suppose even i didn't really know who i was inside as i was so used to putting on a 'front' and always hiding my feelings and not being my true self. I know my true self got lost or had to hide deep inside me in order to survive the pain i felt as a child because of my detached mother and abusive father.

But, now, slowly i feel like the 'real me' can emerge as i am no longer surrounded by people who will hurt me but people who love me ie my DH and DC's. And I am a sensetive, caring, loving person with feelings, who can easily be hurt by a tactless word or nasty comment. Showing my feelings is still something very new to me and it's like i'm learning to walk, i feel a bit wobbly and unsure of what i'm doing, but i know i'm doing the right thing and am on the right road.

I still feel a lot of sadness at the loss of the 'real me' for all these years and at the loss of my true potential for achieving things in life. But i feel very grateful and proud that despite my family pulling me down, i have managed to create my own happy and loving family and i think they are and will be my greatest achievement in life.

Like i think Sakura has talked about, i feel i have always been somehow held back in my career and never really achieved what i know inside i could have achieved. And now although i still have a chance to resume my career once my DC's are both at full time school, for me my career will now always take a back seat and looking after my family and their needs will always come first.

Sorry for the ramble, but i feel so much better now for getting these things out of my head and also having a good cry!

Love to you all, x.

oneplusone · 10/01/2008 11:45

Kaz33, well done for the step forward you have taken in your relationship with your son. I can completely relate to what you have said. I too would always get frustrated and angry and seem to have no patience with my DD when she woke up crying in the night or fell over and hurt herself.

But i had a real breakthrough a few weeks ago. We had been to the park and were walking home. It was freezing cold and my hands had gone numb. All of sudden DD started crying and saying she wanted her daddy. It was slightly odd as she hadn't mentioned him all day and she knows he is at work all day. Anyway, instead of getting cross with her as i would have in the past, i suddenly knew what was happening. Her hands were hurting because of the cold and she knew, because of past experience that she wouldn't get any sympathy from me, and so she started crying for her daddy as she knew he would comfort her. All of a sudden, i had compassion and empathy for her in a way i simply hadn't been able to feel before and i was able to comfort her and be there for her. It was a completely new experience for both of us and we were both sobbing away (for different reasons!).

Anyway, since then our relationship has been transformed, I know i am giving her the love, warmth and comfort that she needs and both she and i are so much happier. I don't feel the need to pretend anymore as i genuinely feel like i love her inside and it is an amazing feeling.

kaz33 · 10/01/2008 13:54

Oneplusone - that is a lovely story about DD.

Its wierd once you get the idea of what you are meant to do - it doesn't seem that hard and you wonder why you didn't do it before.

I think the other lesson i am learning that I have been projecting my fears on to my eldest son. I was a very lonely child with no friends and no idea about how to make them. The thing that I have obessessing about for the last two years is DS1's social issues at school. So I am going to relax and trust my boy to make his own way, with me there to guide him and support him when he needs my help. That is the plan anyway, the reality might be more difficult

Earlybird · 10/01/2008 15:04

Wow oneplusone - that is huge. I'm so happy for you and your dd that you found a new way of relating/connecting/supporting. It's vitally important for you both individually, and for your relationship. That's really great. Well done.

toomanystuffedbears · 10/01/2008 15:38

Pages, I am glad you are a survivor and a healthy strong person. Thanks for sharing your path - {{{hugs}}}of gratitude (and I'm not really the hugging type ).

Thank you, Sakura, for support and validation of my thinking. It means so much to me. I will look up Sam Vaknin.

Hi Partsky. I agree with your analogy of poison seeping in. For me they are poison seeds. I also understand the feeling of being overwhelmed, as I think we all do. For me, I am beginning to think that the feeling of the pending avalanche of overwhelming truths is based in a sort of separation anxiety for my established survival strategies however ineffective and outdated they may be (that-outdated strategies- was touched upon in the book The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists.) The avalanche hasn't happened yet, and I'm beginning to believe that it won't because after the main realization that I was not loved by my parents, the supporting evidence is coming along orderly, in single file.
Best wishes to you in your healing.

kaz33
oneplusone-and thanks for the alice miller link.

ChairmumMiaow · 10/01/2008 18:24

Reading this thread has been amazing for me. I haven't had contact with my mother for around 6 years, and at nearly 39 weeks pregnant, and with other family events, this sort of stuff has been at the front of my mind at times.

Its great to finally have a label for my family - I think I have an entire toxic family rather than just toxic parents!

I could probably write a novel about all this but basically the issues are mainly with my mother. Her behaviour has always been compounded by my father's workaholic tendancies. Trying to put it into a concise form is hard but I'll try not to ramble. From an early age I have vivid memories of being terrified while my parents had screaming rows. As we got older, these got worse, and we'd often (me, brother and half-sister (not that I knew that until I was about 8)) get dragged into them to explain our actions when one of us was being argued about. All this was made worse by my mother's leaving 3 times - once taking me and my sister, but leaving my younger brother(when I was 10), and the other times leaving all of us without word (when I was 16 and later at 19 when I was away at uni).

As a parent, she was inconsistent, sometimes playing wonderful happy families and devoting lots of time to us, other times ignoring us and wallowing in her own world (she was convinced several times that she was dying of various things and would sit around drinking telling me what would happen when she got really ill). She had favourites, lavishing attention and money on whoever gave most to her at the time. At times we were all very close to her, although my brother had trouble trusting her (and resulting behaviour issues) from when she left him behind with our father. When she wasn't happy with us, we suffered her criticisms and manipulations ("My god, you're ugly when you cry")

At the worst times, I think I echoed her behaviour, becoming depressed and (I beleive) making myself physically ill through this. When she left the second time, none of us kids wanted my father to take her back, but he did anyway. She went through a particuarly destructive phase, threatening suicide more than once. I have another vivid memory of (at 16), wrenching the carving knife out of my mother's hand as she held it over her wrist, and then breaking into the bathroom to make sure she wasn't trying to finish the job.

By the time I went back to uni, I had managed to get back on good terms with her, but as I revelled in my independence, I drifted away.

The last time she left, it was a performance, to say the least. She left for another man, changed her name (first and last) and joined a coven. By this time I'd had enough and urged my father not to take her back. When he did, I couldn't deal with it and broke contact with them.

My younger brother was still living at home, and a while later his girlfriend and her daughter moved in with them. My mother didn't like this and was confrontational and unpleasant, culminatining in threatening my now-sister-in-law with a knife (3 days before their wedding). To me, this was unacceptable, and I broke contact with my parents.

My mother he went into therapy (which she had done the previous time she left and convinced the therapist she was fine) and was diagnosed with Bi-polar disorder. As far as my elder sister was concerned, this was grounds for total forgiveness and acceptance, and when I couldn't face any more of the manipulations, I was constantly pushed to "forgive".

This was about 7 years ago, and since then, the more time I've spent away from my family, the more I've come to terms with it all. I'm extremely lucky that I have a husband (boyfriend from 18, married 6 years now) who has listened to me crying my way into the early hours of the morning to get it all straight in my head, and has been wonderfully supportive. Until recently, I felt like I had it all under control - Over the last couple of years I developed a good relationship with my brother and his family and didn't feel I was missing out. Recent attempts to bring my sister into this resulted in her screaming at me (in front of my 4 year old niece, and in public) that if I wouldn't accept that my mother was ill and have a relationship with her, I was no longer her sister. This really brought to mind the comments about being an adult, as I managed to remain calm while she screamed insults at me - something that would once have provoked me into a similar state.

Over this time, I thought my brother agreed with me about our family, but a few months ago it turned out that he had been cheating on his wife and has left her. I'm much closer to his wife and kids than to him (and am supporting them through what he is making a messy divorce), but it hurts that he's gone back to the rest of my family when he always assured us (when my sister accused my SIL and I of keeping him away from them) that this wasn't true. Since he left, he hasn't asked about how I am (or his neice or nephew - as I'm 38+4 today). I found out today that he claims to be upset my by not talking to him (he hasn't contacted me since he left) then received, out of the blue, a text message saying he was still alive and asking me to keep him updated about my pregnancy. I am bemused!

To me, that's very much it with my family. I've had enough of them. I find contact with them destructive, but worry about what my child is going to say when he/she gets old enough to wonder why he/she never sees the grandparents. I also worry about how I'm going to deal with it when they send presents etc.

Its wonderful to get all this out every so often (even if I have written a novel that nobody will get through!), and I just wanted to thank everyone for posting their stories on here. It makes me feel much happier that I'm not the only one with a toxic family - and that it doesn't have to be horrendous physical or sexual abuse to justify the effects they have on our lives.

oneplusone · 10/01/2008 19:33

Hello ChairmumMeow (love the name!) and I'm sorry to hear what you have been through with your family. You sound like you have come a long way in figuring out they are toxic and in keeping your distance for your own sake. Well done for doing what is best for yourself and your own family to ensure you are all healthy and happy. As far as i'm concerned that is the most important thing, making sure my family's 'poison' doesn't seep into my own family and affect another generation.

Like you i felt so happy when i found this thread, just to know that i'm not alone and there are people who understand exactly how i feel and who can and do offer support, acceptance, validation and advice has been amazing.

Keep posting, it is always interesting to read about other people's experiences and perspective and we all seem to be able to help each other on our journeys.

oneplusone · 10/01/2008 19:51

I have just had a bit of crying session again . It suddenly just hit me how much i have suffered at the hands of my own parents, the very people who were supposed to do nothing but love and cherish me, such a simple thing to do but they couldn't manage it.

I felt so alone growing up, so completely and utterly alone, all my life, and all the while i was living in a house with 4 other people, my so called 'family'. I don't think a single person in that house ever gave me a second thought, ever wondered or asked how i was feeling, what was going on in my life, if i had any worries or fears, I might as well have been invisible.

But my parents all of sudden popped up as if out of nowhere when i had DD, suddenly being so nice to me. It was very strange to suddenly have their attention, all of a sudden i 'existed' in their eyes, but only because i had something they wanted: their grandchild. My mum didn't even notice i had severe PND and was functioning like a zombie, she used to waltz into my flat and just walk past me and go straight over to coo over DD. She never asked how i was, and i was totally and completely miserable and unhappy at that time. Most mothers wouldn't even need to ask their daughter how she was, they would be able to see at a glance that something was not right. My MIL just has to look at DH and she immediately knows if has a headache or something, my mother couldn't even tell that I had severe PND.

There are so many other occasions when i was living at home and going through some trauma in my life eg problems at work or splitting up with a boyfriend and i had no-one i could talk to at home and no-one would even notice there was something wrong, that's how little notice they took of me. My mum does not deserve to call herself a mother, as far as i'm concerned she was no more than a 'housekeeper' ie she cooked and cleaned and did absolutely nothing else for me.

Sorry for sounding so miserable, today is not a good day for me

oneplusone · 10/01/2008 21:11

In relation to what to tell the DC's when they are older about why i don't see my parents, at the moment, my plan is to tell them that my parents were not very nice to me and made me very unhappy and so i have decided not to see them. ie the truth but in a way my DC's can understand. I hope that plan works out, will have to wait and see, but with my DH's input and support i think it will be ok. Luckily it won't be for a while i hope as DD is only just 4 and DS is 20 months.

PurpleOne · 11/01/2008 01:46

My parents (or rather my father) have rung dcs for ages behind my back.
I told them both via email that they re not to call here anymore.

My dd's are already asking questions. I told them it's cause they make mummy feel sad...but I'm sure that won't be enough reason for my dd's lol.
OneplusOne, what was your plan with dcs?

Mine are asking far too much than I can even answer....?

hedonia · 11/01/2008 01:50

Don't you thin though that we finally grow up and are liberated by seeing our parents for teh fallible weak human beings that they course are? I have seen that..I idolised them but I realise now that they are human beings and weak as we all are..in a way you are stronger because you dealt with that at an earlier age?

kaz33 · 11/01/2008 09:20

Oneplusone, the purple one - it is so hard, because on one hand we want our kids to have all the benefits of grandparents but on the other hand we have to protect our mental health.

Mine are 4 and 6 so it is relatively easy to control the situation so at the moment I am training my parents that they have to be sensitive to our requirements. I am practising saying NO, but what about this.
Early days yet, so have no real idea of whether it is going to work.

I have no advice Purpleone but just hugs as I do appreciate as how difficult this must be for you.

Pages · 11/01/2008 10:00

Hi Hedonia, I may have misunderstood what you are saying, but I think that one thing that all of us who were exposed to some form of abuse at an early age have in common is that we DIDN'T deal with our parents weakness at an early age, we DIDN'T (for many of us until quite recently) recognise that it was in fact our parents' weakness that was responsible for our pain. We instead saw it as our OWN weakness, and blamed ourselves, and that was endorsed and encourage by our parents (and often the entire family) in order to shield and protect the parents and their own narcisstic image of themselves as perfect human beings. I think you are right though that many of us have developed an inner resilience that has brought us through the pain.

Oneplusone and Kaz, I am truly delighted to read these wonderful stories of love emerging for your dc, you both brought tears to my eyes, because I know that had I had dc when I was younger I would have encountered similar problems to you. I too am able to recognise the love and patience I am able to have with my gorgeous boys in a situation where my own mother and stepdad would have been telling me "hurry up", "stop whining" etc. Isn't it wonderful to realise that you can do things differently? Oneplusone, in rubbing your little dd's cold hands you are also rubbing away the coldness of your mother and warming your own heart - you have given your DD and yourself the most precious gift imaginable. I am just so pleased that your DD has a mother who has the insight and strength to do this work on herself where my own mother did not.

Chairmum (yes, what a fab name!) welcome and sorry to hear that your brother and sister are unable to validate your feelings. I see my entire family as toxic too - apart from my older brother, who I am fortunate to have been able to share the journey with - my younger siblings, like your sister, are still protecting my mother at all costs and have demonised me in the process. I really don't think it matters what you tell your dc about their gps as long as it is honest. I don't believe the relationship is that important as Ive said before.

Oneplus, again I entirely share and relate to your feelings of isolation as a child. Until I was around 12 or 13 I felt entirely trapped in my head and didn't even have the vocabulary to express the intense fear/shame and loneliness I felt. When I got to my teens and started to have relationships with others my mother was, unlike your mother, able to be sypathetic and helpful (like Sakura's mother) when it was anyone outside the family who had upset me - and so was very good with boyfriend/friend troubles. She too would have spotted and been very sympathetic if I had PND, and she was really wonderful to me after my dc were born. But

I can see now that this (conditional) support was almost a smokescreen for her and the lack of empathy she had with me when I was in pain because of HER. It was and still is almost as if pouncing on an external factor was a convenient way of deflecting the attention away from herself and make either me or the friend/boyfriend the problem, iyswim. As long as she could remain perfect she would be sympathetic. But I have recently realised how much this happened when it suited HER. She only (as my older brother said the other day) gives what SHE wants or chooses to give - whether it is love or presents - and so it is always on her terms. In many ways this has done a lot of damage, because I grew up with her warped spin on the world and how things were, which was usually that everyone else was wrong and we (as a family) were right, unless someone within the family said she wasn't right, in which case that family member (either me or older brother) became the problem.

OP posts:
Pages · 11/01/2008 11:06

A bit of a ramble but I guess what I am trying to say is that if I had been able to (and allowed to) recognise that it was in fact the toxicity of my own family that was at the root of all my problems I wouldn't (with her encouragement) have kept having relationships with unsuitable friends/boyfriends and kept trying to make them work and running to her for comfort when they didn't.

OP posts:
oneplusone · 11/01/2008 11:09

Hi Purpleone, i think or at least i hope it might be easier for me in that my DC's may be too young to remember my parents. The last time my DD saw them was when she was nearly 3 and DS was only a few months so DS will definately not remember them. DD might i suppose and i will just tell her that they made me very unhappy, that they didn't love me and i didn't want to see them anymore. Have no idea how that will go down with DD, she is very thoughtful and intelligent so she may ask lots of questions but i will just tell her the truth. DH is fully supportive and i think that is crucial to helping my DC's understand.

Luckily DH's parents are fab and are very close to the DC's so they do have a 'grandparent' relationship, but like Pages i don't think it's that important. You and your DH are your DC's whole world and as long as they are completely secure in knowing that they are loved and wanted and cherished by their parents your DC's will grow up to be happy, healthy and confident adults and the world will be their oyster.

I think other adults only become important to children if the children are not getting what they need from their parents, if they get all the love they need from their parents i don't think children need anyone else.

smithfield · 11/01/2008 11:09

Hi- Just a quick hello, to say I am still here and reading your posts, but having a few problems with posting myself atm .
Aslo tryin to focus on ds a bit more.
I will be back soon though.

Pages · 11/01/2008 11:10

She also kept me very dependent on her in this way - learning to "self-reference" is something new and very recent for me which I couldn't have done without breaking away from her and going through the process that I have. I have wondered all my life why I was so influenced by what others thought of me, why I couldn't trust my own judgement more. And she was the reason - she had always brainwashed me into thinking that I had to defer to her expert opinion in all matters.

OP posts:
oneplusone · 11/01/2008 11:33

Smithfield, i just wanted to ask how you are? You mentioned a while ago you could feel depression descending. I know it's an awful feeling but i think it means you are taking a step forward.

I was trying to explain my own depressive episodes to my DH the other day and i'll tell you what i told him in the hope it might help you, but i feel this is very personal to me so it might make no sense whatsoever.

DH's job is within IT so i thought a good analogy for him would be to liken the brain to a computer. So if a computer is loaded with lots of applications many of which are running at the same time and then you ask it to run yet another application it starts slowing down as it hasn't got the capacity to run all the programs simultaneously at the correct speed. In the same way i think my brain cannot cope with processing all the thoughts and emotions and memories and feelings to do with my childhood, some of which are deeply suppressed and buried and go back probably around 36 years, and deal with day to day life as well. So i think that when my brain is searching for or processing some deeply suppressed memory or emotion, all the other functions of my brain slow down and day to day functions are affected and this is what manifests itself as depression. I think the fact that i need to sleep more when i am depressed is to do with the fact that my brain wants to use all it's power to access and process my deeply suppressed childhood memories and if i am sleeping it can do that without also having to process my day to day life.

Now, does that make the slightest bit of sense or is it all a load of nonsense!

Regarding 'feeling' your emotions when you have intellectually accepted them is again something i can relate to. I have found it takes something in everyday life which often triggers my feelings and allows them to come to the surface so i can 'feel' them. eg yesterday evening i was sitting with the DC's on the sofa, we were all watching tv and having a cuddle and i felt so much love inside for them and i knew they could feel it too, just by the way we were all so contended and happy just being with each other. And then i thought aboout how i had never had any moments like that with my own mother had never 'felt' secure in her love (she didn't love me so that's not surprising) and it triggered a wave of emotion and that's when i had to go upstairs and have a cry. I felt so sad at the thought that all my parents had to do was love me but they couldn't even manage a simple thing like that.

Maybe though, it only seems simple to me now i have come quite a long way on this journey. I know how hard i was finding it to love my DD before i started on this journey and i realise that's where my parents were and still are, they are absolutely miles and miles away from the start of this journey and i am pretty sure however long they may live, they will never take even a few steps along this road.

oneplusone · 11/01/2008 11:35

Hi smithfield, glad you're still here, think we cross posted!

kaz33 · 11/01/2008 11:56

Its great isn't it Oneplusone.

Last night DS2 was complaining of being prickly, the old me would have just ignored it and told him to go to sleep.

The new me, deciphered that he meant itchy, just as I used to get as a child, and went off and got some mosturising lotion and then massaged it on his legs. Ah he smiled - no longer prickly. Then he reached up to give me a hug and kiss as mum had made it better

Sorry to moan on about parenting triumphs but each day at the moment is bringing a new challenge and a new victory

Pages · 11/01/2008 14:02

Kaz, love the stories - keep telling us... I can feel so much compassion for your little dc with prickly skin and cold hands, as well as my own dc, that it makes it so hard to understand how our own mothers did not feel the same way. Sometimes I think DS2 just wants to know I am there as he cries in the night and then asks for silly things (once it was "what do you want DS2"? "Shreddies" was the answer. "No, not until breakfast time" And then he goes back to sleep...) Maybe he is trying it on a bit at times, but I can't know that for certain and I think you can be firm without being unloving - and in fact he may have had a nightmare but just not know how to express that so asks for a bowl of shreddies instead.

I heard a granny (I assume) talking to her two gc (both boys) in the supermarket the other day and she was really snapping at them "No, that's it, it's too late now, you had your chance, now you can't have it" and then in a sneering voice, "But that's not what I asked you, is it?" "No, too late!" I have no idea what the conversation was about because I couldn't actually hear the boys' replies, but the tone of her voice was just loud, completely controlling and condescending and I could see how shamed the two boys (aged around 10 and 8 at a guess) looked and their body language said it all, as they slunk along behind her, and I just thought "What gives you the right to talk to them like they are beneath you?" So a good example of why not to let your gps around your dc!

Oneplus, liked the computer analogy, makes complete sense.

I have just started reading Alice Miller "The Drama of being a Child" again and had forgotten how brilliant it was. The first paragraph just sums up why it is so important to reconnect with our childhood selves on an emotional level rather than just an intellectual one. She says most people don't bother but do not realise that their past is determining their present actions. Just makes so much sense.

OP posts:
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread