"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

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This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

Fantastic first link Smithfield (haven't looked at the second yet but have bookmarked it for later). Thanks for posting it.

Message withdrawn

Sakura- After reading that link I am more convinced than ever my mum is NPD. It felt like someone had met her and was writing a synopsis for me.
I am , abour the credit cards! And again on that link no 18;

'She may have stolen your identity.'

I have read eleswhere that NPD's 'generally' aren't physical sakura, but mine definately could be, although not with the same frequency as yours, and not as blatantly as yours. There is another website I came accross that broke NPD's down into different segments. I will try and find it for you.

Lisa- Had to head to bed last night!
I doubt having siblings would have been much comfort to you. A mother like yours will tend to ensure there is no closeness between siblings as it makes it easier for them to gain control. If you read through this thread you will find many of us have siblings but have no bond with them for that very reason.

With regards to your current situation, I think you need lots of support right now. So use this thread. Start reading some self help books (if you haven't already). A good book to start with is Susan Forward, Toxic Parents. Start a journal, and if you 'can' afford it find a therapist. All of these things will go some way to giving you the emotional support, you'should have been able to gain from your mother at this difficult time (had she been functional in that role). The things I mention above will also give you greater strength that you currently need to 'face' your mother, as right now it seems you may be forced to do so due to your fathers condition.
I also think sakura is right with regard to your father, and as you begin to read more around this and explore your feelings you may find your perspevtive on your father may change. He may have been passive in the abuse, but that made him an enabler of your abuser.

Lisa, I have to say that my first instinct when reading your post was along the lines of what Danae says. I think there is a danger in polarising your parents into demon vs saint status, in that maybe that is the roles they have forced each other into (how easy for your dad to be a saint if your mother is a demon and vice versa).

I say this because this was my mother's game, she was and is very good at playing the saint and pushing other people (including men in her life) into the demon role. I know my father was a bit of a nightmare but I think she compounded that by her own behaviour. I recognise it because it is something she has now done to me, and I also used to do it a bit to DH, ie if he did something wrong I would make sure he knew it, I was always right and I would do what my mother used to do, playing the perfect martyr role and push DH into being "the problem". I realise now that while DH can on occasion be infuriatingly irrational, on occasion so can I.

I think dysfunctional families are a system and depend very much on everyone playing their defined role to work the way they do. I am not for one minute suggesting your mother isn't as bad as you say - she sounds horrendous - but is it possible your dad is perhaps enabling her behaviour, as others have said?

Sorry everyone but I have to put a different view across here.

As I said previously, my dad being a wonderful man and the clarity/validation I got from that gave me a massive head start on dealing with my mother and step-father, now he wasn;t in anyway an 'enabler' as he wasn't around at the time, but surely, especially as Lisa's dad is dying, her feeling he was a good man is just as reasonable as thinking of him as an 'enabler'??

I would personally say thinking of him too as a victim of her mothers abuse would be more beneficial than having to come to terms with him just standing by and watching.

Yes, adult victims have a choice, but they aren't always strong enough to use that choice. Many people, men especially will not leave a relationship in which there is some form of mental abuse because it would mean leaving their child in said relationship without any form of protection.

Lisa's father dying, IMO, could be the perfect opportunity for closure on the toxic mother realtionship. I think many of us hang onto relationships with our parents that really should be ended, at least in this situation Lisa can begin to work towards cutting her mother out completely once her father passes.

I am sorry to hear about your father btw Lisa, whatever he may or may not have been/done he is your father and you love him, so I feel for you.

Smithfield, both sites are really interesting. Paragraph 20 (I think) of the first site (she can't ever be wrong...) was brilliant and summed up my mother's "apology" to me.

I think the reparenting site probably has some answers to what you were asking, Earlybird.

Sorry also to hear about your father Lisa. It must be devastating for you.

I went over to my parents yesterday to talk to them about some furniture they are giving me as they are downsizing. All went very well, at the end mum gave me a bag of my stuff but they must have been storing for over 10 years, about the last time I lived at home. Had forgotten about it, amongst photos etc.. were some diaries of mine - very, very personal stuff that was had loads of details about my sexual, alocholic, drug taking past (gosh I was a mess). I would be totally shocked if DH read it, let alone my mum.

My mum is NPD, do you think she read my diaries? I think she must have done, I can't believe she hasn't. They weren't well hidden just two black bags of stuff. She has mentioned my stuff to me before periodically and I have just said throw it out as I didn't believe there was actually anything in there of importance.

VS, I take your point and yes, Lisa's dad is nothing like my mother and I am sure he is a good man, or Lisa wouldn't love him the way she does. It is also, as you say, often harder for a man to leave a woman and take the children away from her.

But my mother presents herself to the outside world as a victim of abuse herself in the way that you describe, and many people see it simply as that - an old school friend of mine in fact recently denied my reality about all of this and said my mother had done brilliantly in very difficult circumstances (my mother says now "how could I leave your stepfather, where would we go?" etc) but the fact remains that I still suffered because of her failure to act to protect me. On Smithfield's first link this is one of the stock responses of narcissistic mothers so I guess that is the angle I am coming from.

My mother indeed sees herself as the weak one, the victim in all this, and is in fact annoyed by the suggestion that I might have suffered at all. It's almost as if I am stealing her thunder.

Pages, here too, my mother would, if anyone gave her the chance to, tell all that it wasn;t her fault my step-father was such a prick, she'd probably claim not to know much of what happened and say she too was a victim of his abuse.

Actually, the last line I'm not too sure of, I'd never really thought about it before, butI doubt she would admit there was any abuse, and would be shocked of her to admit to being weak enough to have not stood up to him.

But my point is that yes, many seemingly non-inolved parents would have been enablers, but not all.

Has anyone had an abusive childhood but then gone on to have a good relationship with their parents as an adult?

I'm in that situation but it feels like it was a different person that it happened to, I sometimes even wonder if what happened really was that bad. It seemed so "normal" at the time that part of me does wonder.

I still find things hard but I have come on a long way even from a few years ago. I used to self-harm and tried to cut my wrists once but haven't done anything like that in years.

Jodie, I tried, I didn't speak to my mother for about 3 years, from 15-18 then got back in contact with them, even moved back in when I fell pg at 19.
But I never felt at ease, it was like something was waiting to erupt, and we were all living on this big secret.
Then my step-dad left my mum for a 15year old girl, her best friends daughter, she ended the marriage, I found her somewhere to live, etc, then when I called her one day she was moving back in with him and I realised I couldn't continue living a lie.

I told her she had a choice (the same way he always had since I was 9years old) and she couldn't admit that what he did with this 15yo was wrong, I knew she'd never be able to admit the abuse that I suffered and then my Dad died, I called her, she came round, and she spent the whole night talking about her and my step-dad and things that were totally irrelevant, much of which was lies.

I had to get out, no relationship was better than one based on pretence imo.

My goodness - feel a bit overwhelmed and grateful for the kindness and compassion displayed here. It helps enormously to be listened to/validated, and to feel that others understand/can relate.

Lots of food for thought, and I suspect the links provided earlier will be extremely valuable for context, perspective and a way forward.

Thank you.

Hello all, I've just logged on although have been popping in over the last few days to try and keep up with the posts, have only read bits and pieces though so don't feel i can respond to anyone til I have read through properly.

But, having said that, the last few posts have struck a chord, especially what VictorianSqualor said about adult victims in dysfunctional families having a choice about what to do about the abuse (i hope i've understood that correctly, have literally only read a few posts very quickly) but perhaps not being strong enough to use that choice. I have been thinking about this sort of issue in relation to my mum. In the last few days I have come to the realisation that my mum didn't love me. This may seem obvious but for some reason I have only recently truly faced this reality. Everything about my childhood, my memories and feelings about her, things she did and didn't do all clearly pointed to this fact but until recently I was, in my head, making excuses for her behaviour as I didn't want to face up to the truth. I don't actually think the enormity of my realisation has really hit me as yet or properly sunk in, I have cried a bit but not that much, not as much as I've cried about other lesser things in this whole thing.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is, in my case at least, I know everyone's reality is differet, is that I don't think a parent, who truly loves his or her child, in the way that I love my children, does have a choice when faced with seeing their child being abused/hurt/mistreated in any way. Because I think the sheer force of your love for your child gives you strength where you never thought you had it. I know this because I know however scared, weak or helpless I felt, I would do ANYTHING to protect my children if I saw them being harmed in any way by anyone. By the same token I know my mum did not love me as she was able to stand back and watch whilst my dad severely physically and verbally abused me when i was just 11 years old. I have an image of the scene in my mind and I can see her standing there, admittedly looking terrified, but doing absolutely nothing to stop my dad. And I know if I was ever in a similar situation with my DD absolutely NOTHING would stop me from protecting her simply because I know I love her with all my heart and soul, more than I love myself or my own life.

Smithfield- thanks also for the websites, especially NPD for my Middle Sister.

Here is a little wrap up since Christmas; sorry to vent so much about MS.

Oldest Sister enlightened me the other day.

Middle Sister is very fond of planting negative seeds whenever anyone is happy. I knew this but I just didn't remember it. She knew I was sensitive about my lack of a circle of girlfriends and she took hold of that and ran with it.

How could I be so stupid!!! But I will still study the emotional/social books I bought.

First couple of chapters of the "Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists" described the beginnings of relationships with NPD people. Abundant attention, compliments, assistance, and especially "I only want what's best for you" (all this since I'm pg). Middle Sister is just starting over with me.

She knows she can push me only so far and this past fall I had had enough. While I don't want to cut her out completely, I do know I need to be an expert manager of the relationship. She is now transferring more of the dominant controlling and emotionally hostile behavior to my dd (13)-such as the silent stare down at the dinner table Christmas Day.

She went to visit Oldest Sister for one day after her visit with us. OS said MS told her TMSBs "is a little hormonal". lol
She can blame my hormones all she wants. She also enjoys saying "dd is so 13".

MS also misrepresented the embarrassing photo/camera incident, saying only-with attitude-, "Well, I was told to put my camera down."
I guess dd did tell her to stop taking pictures, but I didn't say anything.

The gift giving- MS goes way over the top, expensive, to be the center of the gift giving universe. To own us? Have us in her debt? So we will worship her? For guilt if we don't invite her to every event, outing, vacation (she started to invite herself)?

It is a slippery slope. I catch myself thinking she isn't 'that bad' now...
But knowing she won't change, and having this idea of a 'cycle of behavior' will help keep me in 'adult mode' and help me not give any credibility to her assertions that I am the problem one.

Jodie- yes. I 'believed' I had got over it and that I in fact had a good relationship with both my parents.
I think some of this was due to the physical distance I had put between us for 6 years (lived o/seas) but emotionally i had also thrown on some rose tinted glasses and started painting my own picture/version of who they were.
However whilst having painted this great picture of them 'I' was still a complete mess. So in effect I had let them off the hook.
Wherever I chose to live, wether here or o/seas I seemed to carry this overwhelming sadness around with me. On the outside I seemed fine but inside I seemed to be falling apart and I didnt know why.
I think several things happened but the most significant were having ds (and my mums behaviour during and after ds's birth), moving back to the uk,getting pg again recently....and finding this thread.
I just came to the realisation that I had never really faced anything with regard to my relationships with my parents and since finally trying to do that I have begun to feel better in myself.
I feel its like being in an abusive relationship, whilst in it you are too entangled to deal with or recognise your emotions rationally and so begin to heal. If you gain some distance emotionally however you begin to gain some perspective.

I'm sorry, I think I just need to offload some thoughts at the moment. Unlike many of your mothers mine was not overtly abusive either physically or emotionally, and I'm finding it quite hard to work out exactly how I feel about her.

I watched a programme the other day called "Help Me Love My Baby" (it was on a while ago on C4; I taped it and only got around to watching it the other day) and in the second of the 2 programmes there was a mother who had twins but she only 'loved' one of them. I felt I could relate to that programme in that I feel like I was the twin who was not loved by her mother whilst the other twin who was loved was the equivalent of my 2 sisters. I am sure now that my mother did not bond with me and did not love me. However, like I've already said she did not abuse me, although she didn't prevent my dad from abusing me so she was his enabler.

But in the programme I watched, and I've read enough material myself to have worked it out anyway, the mother who didn't love one of her twins was severly abused as a child by her mother and this was the cause of her lack of bond with one of her twins. The problem I have is how i can i hate my mum for not bonding/loving me when chances are this was due to abuse/neglect in her own childhood? And when I was born (1970) much less was known about all this than now and so I'm sure there was very little help she could have sought to resolve things. And as i've said i think it was her lack of feeling for me that allowed her to enable my dad to abuse me.

I don't think I hate her, but what really upsets me is that once my sisters were born she clearly did bond with them and loved them and she seemed to quite happily abandon me and completely focus on my sisters. This would have been the easy thing to do for her as she naturally felt more drawn towards my sisters than towards me but this is where i feel utterly and totally let down and betrayed as she didn't even seem to try and build a relationship with me however hard it might have been.

I can understand very well how my mum must have felt as until recently i felt the same way with my 2 DC's. I've already mentioned the lack of bond with my DD (although that has hugely improved recently) as compared with the instant bond/connection with DS and sometimes I felt like i had to literally tear myself away from DS to pay attention to DD as I am so attached to him.

oneplusone, one of the girls that took part in that program is actually an MNer.
I'm not sure which one, but I remember reading a thread with her saying that she had to cope with (i think) maternal issues due to how she ahd been raised.

Also, your last sentence, I can identify with completely, DD(7) I have always found it incredibly hard to be what I expected a mother to be, whereas with DS(3) it was an immediate and overwhelming love.

I believe that although a large part of it was to do with her being born prem and poorly, I was living with ym parents at the time, so, as I mentioned WRT exbf's, I couldn't focus on any relationship with her because my own emotions were still so entangled with the abusive relationship with my mother.

Things with my family seem to have got worse since I left home almost 6 years ago. Im a good few hours drive away now. Ive never felt like I fitted in with my family (Im eldest at 25, 20 yr old brother, 9 yr old sister.) Ive always been shy, nervous etc the complete opposite of my brother and consequently made to feel crap. I wasnt given a lot of praise or encouragement as a child, more like ''well if you dont want to do it then dont'' when Id really have liked a little push, and to make them proud of me. I was filled with rage growing up, I know now it was pure frustration yet trying to talk and explain never got me anywhere. I would smash up things that were dear to me because I felt I deserved to feel bad and doing that hurt. This just gave my parents something to 'throw' at me and knock me down some more. Ive been the brunt of things with 'friends', been bullied by them and had things stolen from me. I became more withdrawn after Id left school, I enrolled at college and felt really good and positive but then my parents kept on and on at me to leave so that I could get a job and 'pay my keep'. 'Where would I get doing art?' So eventually I dropped out. Its a decision Ive regretted ever since, alongside not auditioning for plays, joining groups etc. So I was on the dole, most of which I had to give to my mum which she spent on cigarettes etc. I bought my own food and didnt go out. I started to smoke lots of weed and after a while I couldnt physically go outside as I was petrified. I became extremely depressed and tried to commit suicide twice. My parents just had a go at me, didnt even try to understand. Didnt even suggest that I go to hospital or the doctors. Theyre both from the 'beat it out of them' school of parenting. I thought I was going mad, seriously. I think I had a breakdown. Anyway I met my partner and moved to be with him. My mum said I could move back home if things didnt work out. What actually happened was my brother moved in to my room straight away. When I had returned to pick things up I found half of it dumped in the attic, bits and pieces ruined shoved in a cupboard, and very sentimental items have 'disappeared'. Ive tried so many times to find them etc but my mum etc just say 'I havent seen them'. When I was down last (about 6 months ago)I was upset talking to dp about all this and I heard my mum say to my sis 'is she fucking moaning again?' Then as I was sorting through things mum and my brothers gfriend (shes 15 and at their house all the time - I dont mind but I cant talk to mum about anything without her coming and eavesdropping. I wanted to visit at xmas but explained to mum that I didnt think it was wrong to just want to see my family alone for an hour or so but mum went mad and we didnt go down. It hurt that she'd rather not upset things with them - namely my brother who treats her like dirt and I reckon shes afraid of him, than see us and her first grandchild. It says a lot.) anyway they came upstairs and tara (brothers gfriend) starts going through my things! When she was out of the room I just mentioned to mum that I thought she was being a bit cheeky really - I dont know the girl but my mum went mad at me and told me to 'stop being so fucking pathetic'. Its me all the time. I honestly thought it WAS all me from being told that my entire life but after speaking to friends and dp (who sees it when we visit) I know its not. Ive tried talking to her, writing letters etc but nothing gets me anywhere. Its always going to be me the oddball.

Im hoping to bite the bullet and visit them this weekend - part of me thinks Im mad to, the other part thinks I should be the better person and have my son see his grandparents. Just pisses me off that when we get there my mum will play the 'doting grandmother' role when in real life she cant be fucked to visit unless we drive to pick her up,or we pay for her travel! My dad drove them up once when Id left about 6 months but thats it, and thats been his and my brothers ONLY visit. Its so one sided and Im sick of making an unappreciated effort all the time. I love them all but its so bittersweet, I never ever thought that it would be my own family who left me feeling so unwanted. Sometimes I just want to cut them off because then maybe I could just have a 'fresh start' but itd be me 'being the baddie' as per usual.

Even my brother thinks its all me and Im making problems but hes always had it easier/better growing up. Got to do all the things I wasnt able to so yeah theres jealousy there but to mention any of that now makes me 'childish'. When I was having problems with going outside etc I was just shouted at to 'sort my fucking head out'.

Going through all this now makes me wonder if I DO want to visit them. If they cant be bothered then why should I?

My mum told me a couple of years ago that she was abused when she was younger so I know that will have left scars (shes never told anyone else) but Ive tried to help and I dont know what Im meant to do anymore. I grew up with mum and dad arguing all the time, being in bed and listening to them screaming at each other, and a time when my dad was pretty much pissed all the time and Ive got my mum crying over debts etc. Things that a child shouldnt have to see.

Its all left me pretty fucked up. Im unwanted and good for nothing. I havent got the confidence to do sod all, I try and end up giving up because I feel like such a failure. I was on anti depressants for a few years, Ive had counselling and been on a self help course.

I dont know whats best anymore.

Apologies for length of post, I think Ive opened the flood gates. Much admiration to those that have suffered and come through, and hope to those trying to find themselves.

Dillinger- Welcome to the thread.
Firstly YOU ARE NOT UNWANTED OR GOOD FOR NOTHING! Of course you have no self confidence, but that is because of the abuse you have had dished out to you for 25 years. Abuse for that length of time, to an adult let alone a child, would leave them with feelings of no self worth and little self esteem. None of this is 'your fault'!

I can feel just how much pain you are obviously in. You are currently in a place of hating them for not loving you and yet wanting them to love you. You end up turning that anger in on yourself rather than directing it at those who actually deserve it i.e your parents.

You also sound like you are the scapegoat of the family (abuse within a family normally has set roles within it). Your brother, on the other hand, is probably the 'golden child'. Why do they differentiate? Because it gives them more control, if you were allowed to have a healthy relationship with your siblings they would not be able to 'devide and rule' as they currently do. So they said up an unhealthy foundation based on envy, jelousy and destruction, rather than love, nurture and sharing. Its to facilitate their abuse!

I was the eldest and also 'the scapegoat' so I know exactly the pain that role holds, and yes I too was severely bullied at schools as a result.

A lot of women on this thread have decided to cut their parents (either or both) out of their lives completely, some are taking time out in order to rebuild their sense of self and self esteem.

It has to be your decision ultimately. What all of us have found helpful is to start building a support network for yourself now. You can do that by reading lots of self help books, keeping a journal, and keep writing on this thread. If you can afford therapy this would also be a good option for you.

Dillinger, welcome. I'm so sorry to hear what you've been through. I hope you will get some comfort from this thread, I think just knowing you're not alone helps.

Don't apologise for (what you feel) is a long post, it's very good to get things out of your head, very theraputic.

There is so much help, support and advice on this thread and reading about other people's experiences is so validating, you are in the right place. x

To all those who have come to the realisation that they were not loved by their mother, is this something you can ever come to terms with? Sorry but I just feel so sad at this realisation and I feel that a mother's love is such a fundamental need in a child, how does one ever come to terms with this sort of truth?

I'm sorry if i'm causing anyone on this thread to feel upset, maybe because my realisation is still very new and my emotions are still very raw but I just can't see how I can ever get over knowing that my mother didn't and doesn't love me. And also knowing that she did and does love my sisters.

Message withdrawn

oneplusone- Following on from what danae said, in terms of parenting yourself - you have to 'allow' yourself time. It is a lot to come to terms with and a huge amount of pain may have to be processed and overcome first. Bit like grieving I guess.
If it helps I dont think of it 'anymore' (although I used to) as her not loving me, but that she was 'incapable' of love entirely.
However I have a feeling this would not help you because of the alternate dynamic your mother had with your sisters.
Can I ask; Do you feel their interaction with your mother is entirely healthy? I know this is straying from your question, but I was just curious as to wether your mother was truly capable of a 'real' and 'healthy' connection with your sisters.
I used to think my mum got on 'so' much better with my sister, was closer to her etc. But I think it was because my sister played a different role. She was often compliant whereas as I would rebel, I sought independance, she did not.
However I accept this example could be completely irrelevant as I was always still aware that my mum was not much of a mother to any of us in real terms.