"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

[Pages]

This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

Danae, must be brief, but I had to say, you are not and never will be a mediocre nobody. That?s your mother talking. I don?t know how old you are but will there still be time when your dd is a bit older for you to spend more time on the work side of your life, start to publish more and raise your profile among the scientific community you?re a part of? I work with academics (humanities rather than sciences) and know there?s a great pressure to publish and get a reputation early on, but I have worked with authors who?ve become established in their field later in life and who have been very successful. I?m a big believer in the ?it?s never too late? school of thought and like Ally90 get carried away with daydreams ? my abiding one is that one day I?m going to write a Booker-prize-winning novel, and I?m comforted by the knowledge that Mary Wesley (though I know she wasn?t a Booker winner) wasn?t published until she was 70!

suzy - you've hit on something critical for me, and I suspect, many others. How do you 'drop the baggage'?

I've spent hundreds of hours (and hundreds of £ ) in analysis and reading various books. I now understand that things were far from normal at my house growing up, and that none of it was my fault. I also understand a great deal about how I interpret/react, various assumptions I make, my behavioural patterns etc. So I understand and have hopefully learned how to protect going forward.

But, but, but........those decades under my parent's roof formed me. I can counteract things to a certain extent, but it's so damn frustrating to see how their crap still haunts me. I can't just 'get over it' and 'drop the baggage' because to a certain extent it's who I am. I can do lots and lots of 'repair' work on myself, but I'll never be 'whole'. It's like a shattered piece of porcelain - you can glue it back together with care and expertise, but it will never be 'fixed'.

I really admire people who can get past this stuff to lead healthy lives. I don't know how to do it, and wish I did.

i dont think you can just get over things when you continue to have an ongoing relationship with your parents.

i moved v. far away( not for that reason you understand) butbeing at this distance from everyone makes me sit back and realise that if i dont want toxic people in my life i dont have to have them there - they are only influencing me and my emotions becuase i let them.

just popping in on a five minute break from the kiddies and DH downstairs (well, more like 25 on the amount to catch up on!).

happy new year to all. I do hope that the new year brings us all some peace that we all so richly deserve.

ally.....not got that book yet but will make it MY aim for a new year resolution to hunt down!

to the suggestion of the trial separation......tried that, backfired hugely.....will explain another time as it was all a xmas/new year fiasco not wanting to re-visit tonight IYGWIM!

and thankyou for the 'sane' comment......the psychomum nickname came from my DD1......an evil lady around the corner from my house had a go at me one day (over another neighbour I disliked and other issues) which escalated into a namecalling fight.....she then threatened my kiddies, to their faces, to kill them (this was 3yrs ago, so eldest 10, youngest just 2yrs), and obviously terrified them.....so I slapped her round the face!!!...then called the police!

DD1 told people......mummy went psycho and saved us.....name stuck.!!!

anyhoo.......have a fab evening

Happy New Year everyone!

There are so many points I want to respond to... meant to say PurpleOne, so sorry about the loss of your brother. I can understand how cheated you must feel, but I totally agree with Danae that anger is a powerful tool for self-change if you can direct it in a positive way and contain it. And I am deeply touched that anyone on here would want me to adopt them! Also, Psycho, your story has an unusual and tragic start but your aunt sounds very similar to many of our parents, you are not alone, and I for one can relate to being teased at school.

Which brings me on to the thing that has struck me... In hindsight I know now that the teasing, being different, not connecting, etc was because I sought out unsuitable friends in the same way as I later did boyfriends, and Danae has summed it up perfectly:

"distant, critical, misogynistic, actually much less intelligent than me yet I forever pandering to their egos and diminishing my own abilities to soothe their fragile selves. All a struggle to replay the unloving parenting of my childhood but this time to 'win them round'"

That explains exactly how I feel about many of my relationships in the past from schoolfriends to emotionally unavailable men.

So, a bit of an irony here (and I am now hearing my stepdad's voice telling me how thick I am, who do I think I am? etc) but I have realised in hindsight that I was actually far more intelligent than any of my other family members or my peers or boyfriends. I tried to be the same as others and I either denied my own intelligence or credited others with more intelligence than they actually had. Does anyone else have the same experience?

I was wondering whether this "gift" of insight (which my counsellor also said I had - he said some people are "born to the truth") is something all of us were born with and because we were the most intelligent and (therefore?)sensitive member of the family we were the one that primarily got singled out for the negative attention?

My stepdad for one was always trying to put me down, maybe he sensed that I would see how stupid he actually was if he didn't make it his daily task to strip away every ounce of self-confidence that I had. And, I always thought my mother was intelligent but DH said the other day that she isn't, she just reads and listens to the radio and is good at absorbing and spouting off other peoples opinions. She is certainly knowledgeable but maybe she isn't that insightful, or "emotionally intelligent".

I have finally ended up living somewhere and making friends with people who are bright, interesting and intellectual and it feels like I have come home. I think one of the reasons I no longer need my mother is that I have really started to like and accept who I am, so am able to give myself what was lacking all my life from others. Certainly DH has also helped there as he has made me feel very secure, and the counselling was invaluable as has been this thread.

I don't know what accounts for the fact that I have always "flown" in my professional life, but I didn't have the "don't be cleverer than me" message from my mother that some of you have had, that is one thing to be grateful for. (She wanted me to fly so that it reflected well on her).

There is a chapter on resilience in one of the books I read by Dr Raj Persaud (all really helpful and interesting) and I think he says it is down to the individual's personality, some people are just able to survive the most horrendous trauma and abuse where others would go under. It's an interesting subject that's for sure.

And I agree with VS, Danae, you are not BPD. Your response to frustration has a rational foundation. BPD is a much more ingrained and irrational pre-disposition to violent mood swings and the person lacks insight into this.

Ally, thanks for your comments. And lets remember, in many ways even people of "normal" upbringings find obstacles to fulfilling their potential. I enjoy my work but I could have achieved more. Hell, I am always planning to go out and change the world, just can't find a babysitter .

And another thing... (can anyone tell that I have ditched the notes and am just posting as I read/ )

Welcome Suzywong, lol at your post, don't apologise for the humour - it's one of the overriding features of this and the previous thread and as others have said, a great medicine...

Hi Custardo and Earlybird, think you posted in the original thread and really helped me when I was starting out with all this. I agree Earlybird with Custardo about distance being key to getting your mother out of your head. I can't remember if you said you were still in touch with her or not?

Definitely some of you (ally, danae) suffered from having parents who were scared of your brains and achievements. My parents were both intelligent-My father got a 1st in a physics degree from a good uni so because of that I've always admired him and looked up to him and just assumed he was extremely intelligent- much more than me. But come to think about it, he said a strange thing as I was about to start my masters. He said "OH, but you'Ve never been any good at science" . True that I was better at other things, but wouldn't it be more normal just to encourage your child? Also, as I've turned into an adult, I've found that he argues facts that are just blatantly wrong. And he has extremely bizzare right wing views that I obviously never noticed as a child.

My mother wrote in her last letter that she couldn't do anything about the the bad in me, but that all the good in me comes from her, including all my achievements. But from and early age, all I've ever really craved was a home (i.e privacy) of my own, and children too cook for and love, and a lovely man. But that dream got squashed among all the screaming and shouting and probably the need to please my parents by "being" something. But I just did not have the emotional backing. For example, I went to an interview once and it never ocurred to me to tell my parents that I had an interview that day. There was the usual screaming and shouting backround noise in the house that morning, which I was used to, and I went straight from the chaos to the interview. Obviously I never got the job.

Hi to all, and Happy New Year.

To respond specifically to Pages and Custardo - yes, think you are both absolutely right it is best to limit/eliminate contact in order to 'get over it'. My father has been dead for over 20 years, and I have had very limited contact with my Mum - see her 2 or 3 days a year, and not in touch much in between. Contact has been greater recently because we moved back from other side of the world in July (though still 200 miles away from her), and she is now terminally ill with cancer and in the final stages.

Perhaps I'm one of those people in your book danae - not resilient enough to bounce back. The 'they'll only affect you if you let them' approach doesn't seem to be the case for me. Limited contact can prevent further damage/aggravation, but the original/emotionally crippling damage is still there. As I posted earlier, thankfully now I understand/recognise it. But I feel furious that no matter what I do, the damage cannot be erased - it remains.

I spent a long time running away, throwing myself into a successful and insanely busy career that left little time to think about anything but work, spent far too long with unsuitable men in crappy relationships, etc. And now I realise that many of the things I didn't even realise I wanted are probably not going to happen. Of course, there is still much worth having that I may yet/will achieve, but what I imagined would eventually happen (married happily raising a family) will now have to happen in a different way.

Have any of you been able to restore/create self esteem? Been able to stop being perfectionists, or poisonously self critical? Do you trust? Take risks? Let yourself be out of control? Make mistakes and be able to forgive yourself? Able to be truely intimate emotionally?

Earlybird, yes, yes and yes to your last paragraph! I really do believe it is never to late for that self- esteem to be restored. DH and older brother would tell you that they have seen a change in me since all this started (as would, I think, the others on the previous thread). The taking risks and being out of control thing is a newish terrain for me but I am definitely getting there.

It may be harder for you than for me - I don't know quite why I am so resilient, even my mother told me that she admired it in me -but I have a friend who has spent her life battling with serious clinical depression and used to be very very stuck and even she is starting to change now and stop beating herself up, forgive herself for her mistakes and get over the very difficult and love-starved childhood she had. I really never thought she would get there but she has been in counselling for six months and the changes are happening, she is making better decisions, choices, respecting and wanting more for herself.

Pages - very encouraging to know that it can be done, and that you're living proof.

So - break it down for me please. What exactly made the difference for you? How specifically did you make those changes?

Earlybird- I haven't got anywhere near yet but I think a recent and crucial step for me has been waking up to my mother (and father). I realise now that I can't change them and never will and I cant win there approval and never will, and that none of that is my fault.It Seems like such a small and obvious realisation, yet this, to me, is like being on the right road at last. It feels incredibly free-ing and I think that is because I no longer need to look to them for self-definition. I am finally free to define myself.
The key to rebuilding self-esteem, I believe is self acceptance (as someone just said previously) But I do believe it is possible to do and I think believing it is possible is perhaps half the battle.

Bearsmom - Wondered if you watched program on JK Rowling? She cut contact with her father not long after losing her mother to MS. So another very talented individual with a painful childhood.
Interesting how she said she could 'now' be in a boardroom full of people 'all' trying to impress her...yet this is when she felt most like a fraud and as though she was a 13year old in a room full of adults.

Earlybird, I just want to second what Pages says - it is never too late for self-esteem to be restored and to be able to change behaviour and thought patterns you're not happy with. I'd agree with Pages that there have been definite changes in her and in many people in the previous thread, me included (my DH also says I've changed, especially in terms of having more self-confidence and caring much less about what other people think). Sometimes we have setbacks but the movement is mostly in the right direction. I write a diary and although I don't manage to do it every day I always make sure I write it on new year's day and check back to the new year's day entry for the previous year. Last year I wrote I was aiming to be more confident and less cowed, and I wanted to stop looking for approval, not just from my parents but from the world in general. And I was amazed when I read this because I feel like I've achieved all these things and so much more.

The first and most important difference for me has been getting distance from my mother (well, both my parents really but achieving distance from my father has been easy as he's so obviously hateful whereas my mother is more subtle). Refusing to have any contact with her other than in writing (and that's mainly been in the form of birthday/Christmas cards) has made a huge difference to me. It's allowed me to create a reality for myself rather than having everything tainted by her criticism, control and disapproval. And it's made me feel strong, because I've been the one setting the boundaries (which I never managed before) and through doing this I've realised that I don't need her presence in my life or her approval of it. I don't have any support from my siblings, though they mostly manage not to be hostile, and I have only one RL friend I can talk to about this. So this thread has really been my lifeline. I have tried therapy but the therapist wasn't for me. I'm going to try again in the new year to find someone I can work with as I know I still have big issues with shame and guilt and this often robs me of the calm I'd like to achieve. The other key thing, as many people have mentioned, is reading. Toxic Parents is the most cited book, and is the best I've read. I also read a book called The Highly Sensitive Person, which was like a light going on in my head, as one of the main things I was criticised for throughout my childhood was being too sensitive to everything. Turns out it's a neurological issue and there's nothing wrong with me at all .

Also, just thinking about this now, last year I started making a real effort to be more assertive and although it was hard at first, as long as I reminded myself that the aim of my life wasn't to gain the approval of others, I managed to do it and the more I did it the easier it became. It's still not automatic, but I'm getting there.

I can't remember your situation (sorry, there are so many of us here now people's stories get mixed up in my head), but I hope this helps.

Smithfield - darn, I meant to watch that and completely forgot! Thanks for mentioning it, must check the tv guide for repeats.

Smithfield, DH also watched that and said she was very humble and that there was no-one more deserving of her fortune (he doesn't say that lightly about people!)

Earlybird, I am going to have a think on what you have asked, ie to break it down - that will be a nice new year exercise for me, a bit like bearsomom's diary, so will get back to you. But I would have to agree with Smithfield, the real acceptance that my mother is never going to give me what I need was hugely liberating, and that too freed me up to stop caring what not only she but other people think so much - learning to self-reference I think is the phrase - which in turn made me realise with sudeen clarity that what I think and feel is no less important than anyone else, and that in turn creates self-respect if that makes any sense. I also think I was extremely lucky to hit the jackpot with my counsellor who was completely in tune with me and incredibly validating and insightful.

BTW I had previously had counselling from 4 different therapists over the years and none of them were of any help to me. So I would definitely recommend that anyone shop around and interview your counsellor over the phone if necessary...

Message withdrawn

Message withdrawn

Another interesting read entitled:

Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers;

on this link

This looks good as well. Site with some tools and tips on reparenting, which is in line with what we've been discussing about ways to re-build self esteem.

Not had a chance to work through it but looks like it might be a helpful/ practical based site;

here

Message withdrawn

lisalisa- my god she sounds awful! You poor thing. Must be a terrible dilemma with your father being sick. (((hug))).
Sounds like she is using your fathers illness as a weapon.
You will find some support here. Will probably just find it a relief to download.
Do you have any siblings?

Message withdrawn

SMithfield, that first link was bloody brilliant. It even mentions why they are terrible gift givers!
I think that my MIL has NPD for sure. AS I read that list I was nodding at every single little thing. My mother def has narcissitic traits but is perhaps more borderline? I can't be sure because, again, she ticks so many of those boxes. The difference is my mother was NOT subtle- she was a blatant physical abuser PLUS a lot of the subtle things as well.

lisa, she does sound terrible. REading things like that make me so glad I live abroad so mine can't pull stunts like that. Its just shocking and horrendous that she
did that- that would be my worst nightmare- to be accused of neglect. I think you should inform the police. Just go in and have a chat with them and report that you have reason to believe your mother is a little insane and are worried about your personal safety. I don't know what I would do though. I'm sure if I was still in the UK, I'd have to face something like this. My mother has also signed up for credit cards in my name and is using them. I fully expect to be sent a summons letter for a large amount of money at some point and I'm not sure what I can do about it. Before I broke away, she would have made out it was OUR problem, but now I wouldn't hesitate to call the police and report her for fraud.

Regarding your father, please don't take this the wrong way, but I read something important on an American website. It was roughly the same scenario- a father was terminally ill and the woman in question wanted to visit him but couldn't because the mother would be there, and she couldn't face the abuse. NOt only that but the mother was acting as a martyr because she was her husband's "carer". Anyway, the advice she got was to understand that her father had a choice. He chose to live with this woman, and he chose for his life to be this way. Yes, maybe he doesn't realise he has a choice, but he still does. He wants his life to be this way- maybe because when she abuses him, he feels like he's "come home", because he was abused as a child. Whatever his reasons are for staying with her, he has a choice.
Just like my father had a choice when he turned a blind eye to the fact my mother was abusing me daily. He told me he didn't know, but he did. He chose to ignore it because it suited him.

So please start thinking more about yourself. Its good to be compassionate and think of your family but it can also be your downfall. At some point you're going to have to choose yourself and your own family over your mother. You could say that if your father really wants to make an effort with you, he should insist that your mother is out of the house while you visit. Will he do that? He has to meet you half way. He cannot allow you to meet this abuser!