"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

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This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

Just wanted to insert this link, this site
Apologies if it doesn't work...(Novice link attacher)

This guy has a written a book about emotional abuse. He is a lawyer and specialises in child abuse. Found what he has written here 'really'inspirational, especially for someone like me who suffered predominantly emotional abuse which can be so difficult to define. I have cut and paste a couple of lines that really struck a chord with me;

'Even the natural solace of siblings is denied to those victims of emotional abuse who have been designated as the family's "target child." The other children are quick to imitate their parents. Instead of learning the qualities every child will need as an adult?empathy, nurturing and protectiveness?they learn the viciousness of a pecking order. And so the cycle continues.'

Ally90

It's an interesting point you raised, that made me think. The issue with the photographs.

I'm unaware of what your mother has done to them, but in a strong comparison to what my mum has done.
She showed a 'newly found' rellie a pic of me and dd's dressed in our pajamas for one. Felt really uncomfortable about that considering he is a bloke and we've never met him. Rellie made a comment to me in an email that I looked 'hot' in pajamas??? WTF!
Secondly, I was going through an old photo album of thiers a couple of xmases ago which me and dd's found really intruiguing.

The shit thing was though, she had cut my exh's face out of all of them except my wedding pictures. She kept those ones but had drawn and defaced his face with moustaches, blacked out teeth and glasses.
Yeah, I knew exh was a complete tosser, but even I wouldn't stoop that low, especially if dd's had access to them. The kids naturally asked questions to nanny about why she had cut his face out 'after all, he is our father and there's nothing you can do to change that nanny'....to which mum replied that he is a total w@nker, to their faces.

I have had a realization, thank you everyone, for sharing your stories about your mothers. My Middle Sister (without an professional diagnosis-my guess is she is pure narcissistic) presumes herself to be matriarch over Oldest Sister and myself. I knew that...Queen holding Court, Cruise Director, Her Way or the Highway, etc. Lately, within the last year, she has become more ingrained, or "set in her ways" as she ages, and she has become mean. (She used to be somewhat flexible but made a big deal about how flexible she was being when she followed someone else's idea.)

My realization from your discussions of toxic parents is that she is taking the parent role, and as a toxic parent! She is civil and giving and 'nice' to me while she is openly insulting and judgmental and dismissive of Oldest Sister.

Does she not realize OS and I talk? Does she presume that I will bow down to and adopt her judgments of OS-(sharing her brain)? It is going to be an 'interesting' time when the baby comes and they are both here .

Purple- at what your mum said about your DD's dad! Saying anything like that to a kid about their parent, never mind the freaky stuff with the photo's, can be damaging to a child's self image and is completely unacceptable behaviour.

Smithfield- thanks for that link, I found his words very healing and validating.

Onepluone- your poem is beautiful, thanks for sharing.

Phew! Made it. It's taken me 3 hours and there are so many new posters it's been a bit like reading War and Peace, keeping up with each and every one of your stories. I did consider making an index with character synopsis like I did with War and Peace but DH will send me off to the nuthouse if I make any more notes... so welcome to everyone who has joined the thread and apologies if I have missed/misunderstood/not responded to anyone but this thread really has moved so fast.

Oneplusone, I'm really glad you have made some headway in reconnecting with your DD. Just give the feelings the time and space to emerge, they will come. I find that a present day conflict or something that promotes uncomfortable feelings in me (ie at work) is/was something I could "take to therapy" and often I would only make the connection with an old feeling by examining some "recycling" of an old pattern of thinking/feeling in the present. So your DD may well be your portal into the past and maybe you need her around rather than peace and quiet...

I also really liked the poem. It actually made me think of my mother and induced a moment of compassion for her. I feel however that her mask is so firmly in place that nothing I could do could help get to the real lost person inside. She doesn't want that "glance" to be followed up on - she wants the mask kept on. And I may feel for her, I do think she was horribly damaged as a child, but it is no longer my job to rescue her...

I could relate to a lot of what you have said in many of your recent posts. I think my mother is very similar to yours and I too found it harder to get in touch with her "veiled" or passive abuse than the obvious abuse of my stepfather. (Yes, SueBa -I didn't have my "realisation" until I was 40, that has been the case for many of us, you are not alone/strange at all. We have all been highly trained to believe it is us and not them, which makes it hard to see your family as they really are and step out of the twilight zone into reality.) My mother like yours,OPO, has too convinced herself that our upbringing was a good one - littered here and there with a few entirely forgiveable and bog-standard parenting mistakes on her part.

Ally, I like the "practising detachment" exercise, and I think it is a good one. I also thought your earlier post about ego states was very insightful. My mother has played the "superior and sanctimonious (yes Smithfield, that's exactly the word to describe her) parent" to my frightened child for many years. Staying in my adult has been totally illuminating for me in seeing her reponse to that. Your mother's letter is just her moving into another of the toxic parent reactions, very victim and with absolutely no recognition of or insught into why you are choosing not to have her in your life.

Sakura, thanks for the validation about the emotional vs teaching stuff. My mother too was a teacher and someone told me recently that they are generally seen as good candidates for NPD. So, I have spent the last 3 hours letting my dc watch tv and eat what they want (with lots of cuddles in between) while I talk to you!!! But later we will go out for a long walk by the river and we will talk about everything we see. Because of DS1's SN and my mother's attention to making sure I achieved so that she could bask in my reflected glory, I like many of you have a huge distaste for and aversion to "pushy" mothers and the current day leaning towards achievement at any cost (to the child's emotional well-being usually). Could talk at length about that but maybe that's for another thread... Like the "hoover" analogy. My SIL on DH's side is a bit like that. She is very sweet at times but both me and DH experience being "sucked in" by her and I think she has NPD traits.

CB - I would only say that I think you have to detach in order to disentangle. It is teh nature of a toxic family to be hugely enmeshed with each other and I had to cut out not only my mother but the remainder of the family that were supportive of her in order to rebuild my self-esteem. I am now strong enough, I believe, to deal with them all on an adult level, but not that sure if I can be bothered tbh. Someone said detachment is the holy grail of success in therapy, and I liked that, because that's where I think I am getting to, but I didn't aim for that to be the outcome iyswim. But I do think the aim is to know and accept that they treated their dog better than you and that they don't see this to be true and think they were good parents, and when you no longer feel the need to correct them on this point you are at the point where you are no longer enmeshed. You can't and won#t ever change what they think, but you can change how you respond to this.

Lennygirl, my counsellor said the same about my mother, that she only saw me in 2D.

MM - Smithfiled mentioned this too but my first reaction to your parents' response to your DH's email was that it sounded similar to my mother's responses to me, always side stepping the issue and ignoring what I asked for and offering me something else instead.

The sibling thing - really liked your last link Smithfield. The bit you quoted about learning to imitate the toxic parents was very insightful and summed my younger brother up (the one who did my mum's face and stepped over me on the doorstep) I could never understand why my brothers and I were not united in our abuse by my stepdad. I entirely accept taht I have lost most of my family and probably extended family too. My sister made an atempt at peacemaking like yours Neddy, pretended not to take sides but everything she said clearly came from my mother. I don't expect even having children to "enlighten" any of them. They are either too endoctrinated or simply not bright enough. I also realised lately that my sister is my mother's daughter at the end of the day, and she has some NPD traits too. (The last time I spoke to her she yelled down the phone at me for an hour with me occasionally saying "But it wasn't like that" or suchlike, and then she slammed the phone down on me and sent me an email saying that she realised that writing to me was the only way to get her point across without all teh interruptions!!! DH had been listening in as I had my phone on loudspeaker without realising and he said that she ranted at me almost continously and that I couldn't get a workd in edgeways, he was surprised I was so patient with her, that I should have put teh phone down on her - and yet, at that time I was still so unable to trust my won judgment I believed her - vaguely though she has had teh upper hand actually, but wasn't sure until DH put me straight on how she had dominated the conversation) Sorry, just another example though of how my family have all made me the wrong one, every time, it's an ingrained family pattern and there is only one way out of it for me... Toxix Parents really helped on the sibling point for me - my younger brothers' reactions were textbook (to rescue my mother, how dare you accuse her of, etc, etc). We have some extended family or mutual friends that I would like to explain my side to but my feeling is that I am not going to try and persuade people onto my side. I will just carry on being myself and a friend and if they want me to sit down and explain it to them one day, they will come to me. If they make a judgement about me based on what "the others" have told them alone then they are not friends and not worth hanging onto.

Part 2

Neddy, your stepdad sounds a lot like mine. We were not actually kept in our rooms but he had his own living room and we weren't allowed in there and always verbally abused/made to feel uncomfortable if we ever crossed paths on stairs or any other room as a result of which I lived my teenage years in my bedroom. I can relate to your feelings of relief at not having to see him anymore. Until I cut contact with my sister that was always a possibility for me too. He often came round at Xmas even until recently, and the last time I saw him he instantly took the mickey out of DH. I was always polite to him, now I don't know why I didn't just walk out of a room when he walked in. I guess if I'm honest I was still trying to make him like me.

Sakura, re your dad's parcel, what you did sounds entirely appropriate to me. You told him not to phone you. You responded rather than reacted. Your terms not his.

Memyson - your mother may be elderly but that is no reason why her needs should be placed above your own. She sounds highly narcissistic, and the insensitivity and inability to empathise or understand how she hurts you with her comments yet extreme hurt if she gets some back is a classic trait. She almost certainly only sees you in 2D and I would have no hesitation in telling her (very adultly) that you are going through a difficult time and are in the position of needing only supportive people round you. You do not find her supportive (fact not criticism) and therefore she is not welcome at Easter. Of course she will react with hurt and anger. But that's up to her. Not something you need to react back to. The great thing about true detachment is it allows you to feel compassion for her but not guilt or need to do anything about it. She is a mature woman (supposedly) and it is up to her to handle her own upset, in her own way, as you have so often had to.

PurpleOne, I am sorry to say this but your mother is a witch. Keep your DD's away from her. You sounds like a fab and insughtful mum, pretty amazing given the one you were landed with. Sorry if I have stepped out of line but she sounds poisonous in the extreme.

DomesticGodless - Sounds like you father is interested in your dc because they are at the age where they can be happily kept in 2D, worshipping him, not having needs of their own, like you. Unlike you, they are probably behaving exactly as he would like. My brother and SIL tried to stay in touch with my dc whilst ignoring me and I wouldn't have it. We come as a unit. They are not going to put me in my usual place of outsider. I believe they have made comments about me letting the children suffer because of my issues but I couldn't give a flying one how they want to dress it up.

Re gp's, generally, my decision to let my mother see her gc is/was based entirely on what I felt was right for me at the time and it may change. She has at least tried to stay in touch with me, rather than just them. I do not, however, have the slightest feeling that my dc's or anyone's dc's connection with their gps is fundamentally or unconditionally important, and if my mother showed any signs of using my dc to filter through her poison in the way some of you describe she would not have access to them. I believe that whilst it is important that the dc know where they come from and have a sense of belonging to a family, it doesn't matter if that family is an extended one or not, or whether the significant people in their lives are related or not. Blood isn't thicker than water and my two dc have far more established relationships with my two best friends than with any of their extended family, simply because my two best friends adore them and spend time and energy with them, the love filters through (and one of them has a big bosom too ) and I honestly think that's all that matters. Toxic gps are far worse than no gps, IMO. I too got much of the love and kindness I craved from friends' parents.

Toomany, I wasn't talking about social connectedness, but emotional connection, with others, yourself, the universe, whatever. I really meant the sort of relief we are all feeling on here at finding others with similar experiences and feelings. I think an abusive childhood can be an incredibily isolating experience, and it is a good feeling personally for me to have "connected" with you guys. I am not suggesting being a social butterfly is anything to aspire to at all.

Phew, that's the notes exhausted, and sorry if anything said was harsh but I really have let the dc watch too much tv so typing in a rush towards the end...

Just realised how many typos I've made so sorry if I haven't made sense in places.

The point I was trying to make about my sister was that she really believed that she had spent an hour trying to speak while I constantly interrupted her, whereas the reality (which it needed DH to witness for me ) was that she had ranted at me for an hour, barely let me speak, and then when I finally got a word in and made a sensible and valid point, she slammed the phone down on me. She then sends me an email saying that to write it down was the only way she could get me to listen!!

Pages- found a lot of sense in what you wrote. A few things were particularly interesting to me.

My mother was also a teacher! I never knew they were good candidates for NPD. When I first joined this thread I did look up the definitions on the link I think ALLY gave? Yet even reading that I never thought NPD applied to her. In fact if anything the state I had got myself into, depression, and constant needing of approval...I was loathed to read it, as I thought it could more be applied to me . But I found this interesting website here.
It was a site founded by a lady who had a parent with NPD, and talks about the characteristics in more laymans terms. It also has some good reading lists.
Now I have begun to relate the characteristics of NPD from a lot more in fact in the most part to my mother. And yes i think she definately only sees me in 2D, great description!

I also like what you said about friends fulfilling the needs of gps better than toxic GPs. My parents barely acknowledge ds, how can that be a positive force in his life? My mother never picks him up or cuddles him or reads to him, or even gives him a kiss. But she 'does' point out how he is behind with his speech (which he is not).
I have watched my sil incorporate learning into play, eating, bathtime, bedtime. Her and DB are now considering sending him to Private school full time aged 3! She is a great mum, but I agree emotional development is key. The greatest gift we can give our children is their sense of self.

Also- I was really struck by your conversation with your sister. I have lost count of the times I have had the phone put down on me. My dad is the worst culprit for this. But isnt it just the height of degradation? 'You have nothing worth hearing, no point of any worth to make!' so slam. And so frustrating because once the phone goes down your right to free speech has been cut off. Sorry but I find this particular behaviour maddening.
Then the ability to make 'you' look like the bad guy. I think in the original thread about the christening I said about a similar call to my sister. Asking what her plans were, was turned into me trying to pick a fight? But as I said earlier this is how she has been 'taught' to treat me.
I agree with you Pages. Once I do the official cut off, my siblings will either cut me off or come for the goss. I dont have any real interest in sharing my feelings with them, or any family member 'unless' they come to me from a place of love and 'really' wanting to know what my motivation are, and 'just' for themselves to hear not to run back and share with mum or dad. Unfortunately, and Im sure this will be true for many of us on here, that is unlikely to happen.

Im glad you have come so far Pages, it is good to begin to see the wood for the trees 'finally'and have a clear goal...i.e to achieve detachment. To see another successfully begin to fulfil that goal is truly empowering.

My amazon book order shipped -birthday presents to myself (next month)...
Toxic Parents
Emotional Intelligence
Social Intelligence
The Wizard of Oz and other Narcissists

Thanks for your wonderful post, Pages.
I avoid pushy moms, too, and pushy people in general. Middle Sister is a pushy one, point of fact.

Dh and I aim for 'normal' for our dc. We guide and offer opportunities, but we are not going to force a sport (for example) if the magic and enjoyment has worn off. DD is (now was) a rather nice figure skater but she did not like to compete and so fine. Dh and I are athletes at heart, but ds is not...fine, too.

Detachment
Christmas morning didn't go so well-MS and dd got into a "shut up-no you shut up" shout down. I tended to dd in the aftermath (acknowledged 'good grief' about MS) and pretty much ignored MS-didn't look at her, didn't say anything. Carry on, even keel-just like it didn't happen.

I am at the nice place of being able to not react to MS. When I do respond-and that is a good distinction- I try my best to be brief, factual, civil. I find I can not have a chatty chat or heart to heart with her about anything important to me because she will use it to analyze me or use it against me later.

Pages-your sister's phone lecture-
the thought that came into my head regarding my MS is she
"can dish it out, but she can't take it"
also a trait since childhood-related to 'Her way or the highway'.
Deflecting the attention away from herself.
-or- You can't lose if you don't let the other person speak strategy like the other person doesn't even qualify to speak.

Just this morning, I was thinking about the strategy of MS wanting me to believe the problem is me, not her, has gone on pretty much my whole life. I'm the grumpy one, the sensitive one, too quiet or touchy...but do we ever wonder why?
I know it won't do any good, so I may never bother, but one of these days I may be tempted to at least let her know in- no uncertain terms -that I know it isn't me (or OS either).

Pages- Thanks for the lines to Memyson about Easter. They will help me too in not inviting MS to events. My New Year's resolution is to not recognize or allow her pushy self-invitations any more.

I have to go now, but I am still thinking/studying emotional-social perspective-thus the books. I know in my heart that I'm ok to not be a social butterfly though .

toomany- your MS told your dd to shut-up?

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danae-Good to hear from you! I was wondering how ou were. You sound like you are moving to a resolution of cutting yuour mother out and hpw positive you sound about this prospect.
If you did cut her out entirely how will you go about it?

I feel such a coward at the moment. revelling in the idea of cutting her out but at the same time not actually doing it. My mother has just got back from her holiday. I said previously she was texting (previously an impossible task apparently from the location she was in!)
I have now recieved phonecalls- on house phone, and then mobile. I didnt pick up the housephone (I just kind of knew, sixth sense, it was her).
She left a message on mobile saying how she tried to text me (true) and call me (false) and could I please phone ir text on recieving her message.
Thing that really riled me is I can hear my db in the background (the one that still talks to her that is. Why did she make the phonecall in front of him and most likely sil too.
Well we know thw answer to that dont we. Manipulation to the max. This is the only Db of course I have a relationship with, and a fairly good one!
She really knows how to play the game.

So consensus please; I could

a) send text saying got your message, Im fine but very busy. I will call you when I can, ( a lie but gives me breathing space)

b) send email or letter stating; I am just 5 weeks from giving birth and just want some quiet space for me and my family during that time. I will contact you soon (nearer to the truth, another delay tactic?

c) Go in full force. letter stating. From last visit we clearly still have issues in our relationship, which I need to have time away from you in order to deal wityh this. Please respect my wishes and allow me this time out. (or words to that effect)

I know either b or c will stil create a furore(sp) She will basically go ballistic! Not pleasant and I admit despite my bravado in my posts on here, I am scared. . I cant believe at my age I am still petrified of this woman and the power she has. Not just over me but over my relationships with others as well. I play it more like an aggressive teenager when she is near me, but I cant deny these feelings right now about having to actually face up to this is purely fear-based. I admire anyone who has had the to do this I really do!

Smithfield

In your case I would go down the A option to start with (I note you are but a short time from giving birth) then subsequently hit her with the full force of option C when you feel ready to. You need to be prepared for the attack that will likely be unleashed when you write that letter; if these people had the emotional capacity to fully listen and understand they would not be toxic in the first place.

If you wish I will try and find the Toxic Parents link to you where Susan Forward writes about reactions that toxic parents can give.

I wish you well.

Attila x

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Smithfield

This is the link I was thinking of:-

Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too.

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Hi Attila,

You recommeded this link and I'm going to spend some time getting to grips with it later - thanks!

Where is that quote above from? It all sounds sooooo familiar...

Attilla and Danae- Thankyou. and yes you are right. I guess self preservation is still not my strong point

Attilla- a bulldozer of a mother- she is indeed. I didnt have the strength to fight her last time, when she bulldozed her way into my ds's birth. And yes the same room as said birth.
Dont think Im in the right place 'yet' to give any of the answers you kindly posted from Susan Forwards site. Would just ping back into my usual role I think.

Danae- wanted to thankyou to for your advice. You are so right.Just need to keep her at bay for now I think.

By the way had to smile re- presents for your dd. On the link I added earlier it names one typical narcisstic trait as being a 'poor present giver'
In other words they will typically ask what 'you' want then give you what 'they' think you should have.

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Wow lots to read, will try to get to it.

We had a good christmas day - parents were here for nearly 9 hours

Mostly, I think I have forgiven myself for my termination and strangely enough myself for not being tougher with them over the years. I found them slightly pathetic, and DH and I directed them as they were so obviously incompetent and importantly didn't get stressed when the kids misbehaved.

Suddenly I want nothing from them, I am not looking for them to love me (as I know now they don't know how to) and I feel more free than I have in years.

Oh yes, my mum always gives me total tat and then says doesn't matter if you don't wear it/ want it - it was a bargain in the sales

Other thing that my mum has done since the boys were born is to buy herself kids toys ie: a £400 hand crafted wooden noahs ark - when she seemed to have failed that toy shops existed when buying the boys pressies, a scooter, adult swing for her garden.

Hi

Middle Sister likes nothing more than to take embarrassing pictures of people (no empathy) to show around to anyone who'll look...part of her power festival at others' expense. She has a history of this and has used dh & I with beach photos before ( have not had another beach trip with her since then-'04).

More history:
DD is/has been frustrated by Middle Sister's micromanaging and controlling ways for a couple of years now. I've talked to her (DD) about it-explaining, acknowledging, validating what she is feeling. To manage the family relationship though, I have encouraged her to 'go along with things best she can', be patient the visits are temporary, be civil and polite, and if a 'no thanks' is needed that is fine-say it as many times as needed.

The past few months I have let her know how frustrated I have been and that I will better manage our time with MS. Especially since becoming pg.
MS lectured dd on supporting me through pregnancy and after the baby comes at which point I had to tell dd that dd is not my parent-she is my daughter- and how wrong MS's thinking was. That was toxic -wasn't it? So dd is to validate with me anything MS tells her in the future.

Smithfield-I hope you are not too uncomfortable physically. I agree with the others' opinions about keeping a holding pattern now, and wait until you are fully recovered from the birth before you take the public step with your mom. Privately, in your mind, you can study, practice, rehearse, and already be there before you go public later.

yeah...Christmas morning [rolling eyes & shaking head emoticon]...

DD snoops into gifts before Christmas as a tradition-so this year I wrapped a box entirely in duct tape, then wrapping paper, as a good natured joke-which she can take. The duct tape surprised her (she didn't know that box was for her while it was in the closet) and she was beginning to become frustrated -when MS started laughing at her-in opening the box. I wasn't going to let it go on for long-I had a box knife to help her with it. But Middle Sister sees the 'joke on dd' and starts snapping multiple pictures of her
frustration/embarrassment. Dd told her to stop taking her picture (how diplomatic is a 13 yr old going to be?). MS said something to the effect that it isn't dd's place to tell her when to not take a picture (I was literally biting my lip and wondering if I was going to draw blood or not-so maybe didn't hear it right/all). Dd then told her to 'shut up'- which led to the reflexive counterattack from the toxic one-47 yr old- to say 'no, you shut up'.
Dd took her gift to another room. I got up and followed her. I didn't say anything to MS, I didn't even look at her. I opened the box, sat with dd for a couple of minutes (good grief MS) and made a point in my mind of not insisting she return to the living room. I returned, didn't look at MS or say anything again. Unprompted by me, Dd returned, picked up 3 or 4 gifts and left the room again. I watched, didn't say anything to either dd or MS- didn't even let my eyebrows twitch.
Then loudly MS announces 'OK, I'm putting my camera away, you can come back now'.

Then DD opened the box with the ipod and went to the computer to download-(it was a replacement). Middle Sister insisted she get off the computer 'right now'. I said, "No, she has it set up already, it won't take long. She can do it now." MS at that point actually did 'shut up' .

Dh, my hero, said nothing, picked up the trash, helped on the computer (ds got an ipod too), and refused to open any of his gifts until everyone else was done (so he could supervise the dc/MS dynamic and I suppose step in if things got too too bad). I was actually back in the kitchen when he opened his gifts, but it is open to the living room so I could hear & see him from where I was.

I know she will be too glad to take personal photos of me when the baby comes. Any suggestions for facial expressions or gestures for her photo ops ? I will simply have to tell her in black and white speak to ask first and 'no' means 'no'.