October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Oh monkey! Thinking of you, sorry you’re having such a tough time of it. This time of year always seems to be so testing. I’m sure someone will be here with some good advice soon. Xxx

@MonkeyfromManchester I am so sorry she has got to you in this way! They really do have a skill of putting you in a no win situation… even when you set out your stall she finds a way to cause problems elsewhere “fine, if I can’t be successful in ruining your Christmas then I will ruin someone else’s and make you feel responsible for it”

I think leave them to it seems like the best option for now and hopefully you can start to feel less anxious over the coming days, it’s horrible when it gets to this point. It entirely takes over.

One of the worst things about Christmas is the build up and expectation and months of waiting for it coming. I dread it, the pressure is huge and there’s never an easy solution.

Thank you for your lovely words, be kind to yourself in the coming days and I hope you can get some rest. The spread of the poison is unreal, even when you think you’ve seen their entire box of tricks they can pull something else out the bag and despite all logic, they whip the rug from under you and put you back into your box of blame were you are somehow left feeling responsible for their shitty choices.

You are both entirely reasonable in your plans, she will always find a way to make things unnecessarily difficult, sleeping on a chair FFS really?

@MonkeyfromManchester keep going you and MM are doing just fine. She can’t win because you are on to her. Slave bil is an adult and neither you or MM are responsible for him. He can issue boundaries but chooses not to.
Do not succumb to the FOG. A fabulous Xmas awaits xx

@ign0re just return the money and state we are having the wedding we want. 2 of us in a Forrest or just friends and no family - whatever we will choose.

My parents didn’t come to mine - the reason it was august in the second week of their annual 8 week break to France - they were given a years notice and didn’t even reply when I chased them they told me that They weren’t coming as they would have to delay their France ferry and that wasn’t acceptable. They didn’t even send a card. Don’t know why I was surprised they didn’t leave France when my grandparents died - they have set holidays eg America for 4 weeks a year, Malta for 8 weeks and France for 8 weeks and everyone has to accommodate that.

@MonkeyfromManchester the hag is always going to invent and up the anti - what she’s doing isn’t working so she’s upping the game. A bit like a toddler screaming - you don’t give them a chocolate bar so they scream, you still don’t give in so they start throwing things - at this point you must not back down - you withdraw and leave them to temper tantrum and burn themselves out or you take away what was offered.

So your options are disengage - oh that’s nice got to run got something going on here or withdraw the night already offered as ‘staying with brother will cause you to be tired so you are better off going straight home or something’ she is awful though isn’t she. It’s all consuming like a vapour spreading through everything,

So sorry to read you are feeling bad. R and r is needed!

Mr Monkey is right - leave them to it, hopefully they will further turn against each other with you people out of the picture. You have the measure of them and you are not responsible for slave son.

Thanks everyone. I’ve got the day in a client’s office today so the anxiety is real.

@ign0re thank you. It IS a testing time with everyone’s toxics and the pressure to have a nice Xmas in the media etc. I DO have a nice Xmas with my mum. We do nothing but eat, drink, chill out. We both have stressful jobs so it’s brilliant and my mum loves having us. The fly in the ointment is THE HAG who sits there glowering.

@Notmenottoday it IS the box of tricks and this is VERY inventive of her. A whole new low. I think calling her bluff might be in order. Just as we did last year. I just need to put slave son to the back of our minds. Despite his idiocy, I do feel sorry for him as he has put up SOME barriers. The supermarket hell is down to JUST (lol) 2 days. Speaking of which, MM bumped into them yesterday in the supermarket yesterday. He now has thr job of the hairdresser.
‘We can go out for lunch afterwards’
Shrug and nasty laughter from her.
Vile.

@therealsmithfield thank you so much.

@IAAP thank you. God, your wedding! They really are a pair! how selfish. A blessing as they would have ruined. But the embarrassment of not having them there. Designed to humiliate you. AWFUL.

@IAAP total toddler behaviour. I think I need to work out a way of pulling the offer. Last year, we pulled the rug from under her feet as she threw a strop and she wasn’t allowed to rescind the strop. She’s a Fucking bitch.

@AttilaTheMeerkat yes, she will pick away at the Slave. He will be trapped with her. My dread is her falling and not breaking her neck and expecting to stay here to recover. But we’re totally ‘never again’. Nope, not responsible for the slave. I feel guilty for him not HER anymore. She is VILE.

[quote IAAP]@KeeG8181 Hope she has left. Go NC it's easier.

I've been busy at work and have caught up and read everyone's post. Counselling for the last two weeks has been good and I'm feeling much better. Decided no christmas cards for them or texts and we are going to block them on the 23rd and unblock on the 26th so they can't ruin our christmas.

Counselling opened up the alter ago idea -don't know if anyone else has heard of this -I'm very together at work -stand up to bullies -in fact no one would dare bully me -I'm a compassion and lovely manager (apparently!) etc and good at my job. IF someone treated me like my parents did-I would have no problem confronting it or cutting them off.
But my parents make me feel 7. I can't say my name -but for example it's Anneka -so everyone says Anne -e -ka my parents have ALWAYS called me ANN -IE -E - KA. I have cried, pleaded and begged them thousands of times not to and they say 'WE named you, FFS, we know what to call you' and then carry on.

Ironically my mother is Elizabeth Caroline (for example) but insists on being called Carrie and my father is David John and insists on being called Fred which is not even his legal name.

How can you even address this -when it is so basic -it's my name.

My son is called a longer family name from my exes side eg Hugo but my mother declared on hearing it -that's a shit name -I'll call him Hugh as my grandfather was hugh -for the first 3 months we lived there (before we left) she called him hugh daily and daily he cried and stated Im Hugo and they carried on regardless[/quote]
@IAAP nobody does double standards like a narcissist. They can have the names they choose but you and your son? No. Your names are opportunities for them to remind you that they own and control you.

You are making tonnes of progress, just keep going, let them play their silly games.

Weirdly I made the decision to change my name at 2am this morning! I kept my Dad's surname because I was so keen to do what my parents wanted when I got married.

I am dropping two letters from my first name and three letters from my surname. The first name will be difficult because I go by a different shortening but it doesn't feel like my name.

I can only 'hear' the Bogeymum saying my first name and I don't like it.

I found all my childhood diaries yesterday. I read some of the one's when I was 12/13 which were funny and sad. Eventually dh had to ask me to stop because he finds it too bloody sad. He has been fantastic in listening to me talk. He has said he will never allow the Bogeymum near me again.

@MonkeyfromManchester the hag is irredeemably awful. It must be exhausting for you and mm to deal with her vicious energy

@MrsBobDylan she’s DREADFUL. She knows I’ve backed away and I won’t see her. My mum, who is the kindest person imaginable (I was brought up to be like that), has backed away despite all the things she’s done for the Hag. Hospital, clothes shopping, lunches, phoning her during lockdown. I’ve empowered MM to set boundaries and he’s empowered Slave BIL to do some things like not allow her in his house and only take her out twice a week. She knows I’m at the root of this and she HATES me for it. Feeling is mutual. I’m exhausted by her.

The ramp up to Christmas is always challenging. I seem to recall @AttilaTheMeerkat having to scrape me off the ceiling last year (or was it the year before?). At least this year there will be no toxic shit arriving in the post because nobody has my new address. Moving away and pulling up the drawbridge was a blessing.

@MonkeyfromManchester - I'm so sorry you're feeling crap. The Hag's continuing hideousness is designed only to spread her misery and spoil as many lives as she can. As they say, misery loves company. Sending hugs and solidarity to you.

@MrsBobDylan - love the idea of reclaiming your name. Go get that deed poll. It's cool you've kept your old diaries too. I think they're really valuable. Have occasionally flicked back into mine and among all the cringe and 90s schoolkid culture, I see a nice kid who really needed a sane adult to have her back. :(

Do you still write a diary? Journalling (I guess it's the same thing, just repackaged) is incredibly helpful at setting out feelings and unpicking doom thought spirals.

The name thing reminded me of how my parents always (and still do) use an abbreviation of my name I didn't like. It's not something I wanted to make a fuss about - I know with nicknames you don't usually choose your own, it's bestowed and is not always the one you would pick, but if it's done right it feels affectionate and intimate, like because we're close, they're allowed to call me this silly name that doesn't suit me. It didn't feel that way.

The Hag sounds a complete witch I feel so so bad for you dealing with her. Why can't they all just pass away. They serve absolutely no purpose?!

Pig Mother's new hit is my parenting, everything about it is shit. She won't fucking leave my house until Friday and I'm half tempted to phone social services because my son is probably better off without me. I hate her so much, I wish I could knock the shit out of her, all those years of abuse, bullying and intense criticism have just made me hurt and upset that I'm at the point of wanting my own biological "mum" dead.

KeeG8181

Your son is absolutely NOT better off without you!!!. He needs you as do you him. You two are a unit and you do not want to let your mother break you completely here.

Why did she refuse to leave until Friday?. Did she state she has nowhere to go?.

Because her MIL has died and families come together apparently. I wish my gran hadn't died and Pig had. I wouldn't be arranging her funeral and I've told her she better sort her own affairs out because I'm not doing fuck all.

I cannot abide her at all I'm so so angry.

@IAAP @MrsBobDylan the Narcs are CHAMPIONS at double standards. @MrsBobDylan LOVE the 2am revelation. That time is truth time.

@Sicario I love the drawbridge analogy. We ARE allowed to have the Xmas WE want. These twats make it Into a weapon. And thank you. Pulling myself together and she’s going to rue the Fucking day she started this shit. Seeing Mummy Monkey on Sunday and she will back me to the hilt.

@TirisfalPumpkin journaling is great. This is mine. Sorry, I leave out the good bits! No good bits with the Hag, though. Lol. It helps me validate my feelings.

@KeeG8181 first of all you are a GOOD parent. The shittest parent is your mother.

Just an idea but can you develop strategic migraines / cluster headaches and take to your bed (when you come home) or will she look after you in parent of the year BS. Try and spend as much time as you can out of her radar. Friends? Play dates for your son? Also when the Hag was here I did one of those counting down the days drawings that you see in prison walls in old films. It made me laugh (dark humour), I could see the time ticking down.

Be here every day, we are here for YOU. We 💯 know what it’s like. Do NOT be sorry. We know. These people are utter Bastards.

YOU ARE A GOOD PARENT.

Treat yourself to something special when she’s gone. Once she’s out of your home NEVER again. Four more sleeps. The relief you will feel when you close the door on her on Friday. That’s it, she has burnt her bridges. And then some.

Yep, every day I wish the Hag dead. And I totally get you about funerals.

I’ve just landed at home. Had lunch with friend who suggested under-cooked turkey and lots of pudding to bring on diabetic coma at Xmas.

I think the strategy this week is not to bring up her ‘cunning plan’ “I’m going to take the chiller aisle of ready meals”* to Slave Son’s as she will have enjoyed the needling and think (deluded bitch) that her strategy has worked. Just leave her hanging on and working out what the fuck is going on.

*friend pointed out “why would you bring up ready meals in a conversation? Pure guilt trip” it hadn’t dawned on me before, I hope she chokes on her hot pot and dumplings.

Because the rate she’s going she will not be choking on turkey at ours. Although, of course, this choking is an option. Anywhere. Any time. Any place.

By leaving her hanging on THE RUSE HAS NOT WORKED. Because that’s all it is. The stupid NASTY fucking c**t.

Shame she / they can’t put their energies into being good people. We all do.

@TirisfalPumpkin lots of the diaries had me totally cringing. For starters, I had no idea how utterly obsessed I was with boys...every third day I've fallen in love or been rejected...dh was in stitches

I wanted to be a writer when I was growing up but I was brought up by parents who crushed me. I think I will edit the diaries and make them into a modern day journal.

Now I am free of Bogeymum, it seems like a fitting tribute to the poor little girl who wanted to be loved.

@KeeG8181 I thought this for years and thought about suicide for months. Believe me - they are shit parents you are not. Get her out of your house literally send her off to the shops for a box of tea and then text her and say (obviously make sure she doesn’t have a key) and say ‘mum Friday doesn’t work for me / you have to leave now. I will pack your things and put them on the doorstop. I’ve now locked up etc but going forward you are so abusive that I want no further contact. You will not contact me or the children. If you come near me or the children I will contact the police.’ Then contact 101 and let them know an abusive family member has been asked to leave etc and their things are on the doorstop. She is an adult - get her to sort herself.

My parents stopped talking to me - 6 months on it’s a bloody relief and the nice thing is I tried (just as you have) and you’ve been treated like I was like shit - so cut her off - get her out. It’s £30 tops to buy a new lock from b and q and change it. Worth every penny.

By allowing her to stay you are not exerting yourself as an adult - you need and deserve better so cut her oxygen (you) off by living your best life and cutting her off. Please. I’ve been there.

Get to the GP get anti D get therapy - it’s taken 6 months but im starting to feel very differently about them x

Ps we have the hag and the boogeymum - anyone got a good name I can use to refer to my parents ? I need something that takes their power away not mum or dad or my parents.

Eldest calls ex arse wipe or aw - as arse is important but arse wipe gets thrown away.

@MrsBobDylan we should all get a TV show like Loose Women. Hugs to you, I’m so glad you’ve binned Bogeymum.

@IAAP sound advice for @KeeG8181. None of this is your fault. This is your mum making something about HER and not respecting your boundaries. @IAAP so glad you are feeling better.

How about The Toxic Two. You could do one of those 19th century criminal posters. You know the ones with Wanted on it and change it to Not Wanted.

Love AW. Kids do really see what’s going on.

MM came home. Conversation with the Hag has been transactional today e.g. medicine.

He’s decided - bit of umming and aaaawing - not to bring up Xmas. Of course, Slave Son can encourage her to the arrangement at my mum’s, but we’re not engaging.

MM is not going to have a showdown or bring it up. Not. Playing. The. Game. Need to keep him strong on this.

He will bring it up when he takes her to the hairdresser on the 4 December.

“You have a choice - a night at Monkey’s mum’s OR as many fucking days as you please in an uncomfortable, no central heating house*, sleeping in an arm chair with death trap stairs up to the bathroom. Up to you.”

*looking at long range forecast.

One ask. That’s it.

She wanted her hair done four weeks before Xmas. So, she’s got FOUR weeks to sweat it.

Funny how she wants her hair done for sitting in her son’s slum, in her tatty dressing gown, eating ready meals…?

She’s all standards. Lol.

Whenever I dare to complain about any part of my shit childhood, I get 'but you saw so many exotic countries!'... yeah, that really made up for missing nearly 3 years of schooling, having no friends, being estranged from all sympathetic extended family etc...

On the very rare occasions we did have a family day out - because my father stopped seeing himself as a being part of a family from when I was 9 - it used to involve hours of driving to somewhere me and my brothers wanted to go (usually the beach...but we always had to go to a distant one, not the nearest) and then both parents refusing to actually join us on it and making us leave after less than an hour...my mother would then spend the drive back whinging about everything and everybody and my father would be in morose silence...

I've been NC with my father for 32 years. Honestly, it gets to the point where you realise that having them in your life is far more stressful than not. I grieve for what I didn't have - don't miss what I did.

MM yes TT sounds like a good idea. We are currently working on a plan should they try to approach the kids walking home from school in the next couple of weeks- it’s a fairly long walk. Eldest says she will ignore them but she tried that before and he trapped her in an alleyway. I’ve suggested phone me if I don’t answer walk back and into school and tell them that she is being harassed. And ask to stay until she can reach me on the phone or get them to phone a taxi and she always has enough money for that. What 14/15 year old needs this crap in their life though to have to plan for her toxic grandparents not ringing her but trying to accost her and her little brother walking home from school and trying to give him sweets and her money in the form of multiple £20 notes.

@noirchatsdeux what is so unbearable about the Toxic Ones is the inability to see ANYTHING from another point of you. At no time will they have thought we should put our children first, maybe this isn’t the right thing for them. The other thing I’ve observed is NOTHING satisfies them and they are constantly disappointed by life. Nothing is good enough. Their children, friends, they are awful people.

@IAAP I want to make you that poster!

Isn’t it sad (and at the same time a testament to our intelligence) that we have to strategise like this. Good plan for your daughter. That is awful and TERRIFYING that your ‘father’ did that to her. He wants to line the next generation up, doesn’t he? The advantage with this and having the school aware is that if you have to go to the police there is HISTORY. Good for you.

Trigger warning
This morning rather than punch a pillow because mr Monkey would have heard me, I strangled one whilst giving it a piece of mind. Lots of swearing was involved. My hands actually hurt. Most cathartic. I can REALLY recommend this. She’s probably sticking pins of a doll of me right now. Witch.

This was to cure me of my latest idiot idea of hosting Xmas day here, invite my mum, host the Hag and then go to my mum’s on Boxing Day. Then I had a word with myself. She WILL NOT CALL THE SHOTS.

As The Hag sits in her arm chair all day glowering she’s now developing bad circulation - I doubt this will affect her heart as she has a ROCK there. The Dr recommended some kind of pedalling thing for her to use whilst watching Heartbeat at 500 decibels. MM said he’d investigate it last week. He hasn’t.

Two things - I’ve not encouraged him to research this (as I would have ince, even doing it my self) ,and nor has he jumped to research it like he once would have done. Just been researching the types of conditions that finish them off. Although like @MrsBobDylan has observed they are like COCKROACHES.