October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@MonkeyfromManchester I cannot imagine a family as you describe - it seems stranger than fiction.

Back here I’m not walking so well and I’ve lost half a stone. My eating disorder likes this. My mum wanted to get the doctor but I know I’m dehydrated and starving. Have been on less time. Bits of me kept going numb yesterday. I’ve got some more alcohol as I’d like not to fit but I threw up after opening it.

I mean I’ve maybe even lost a little more. I started 8st 10 and I’m now at 8st 1 carrying some extra as I haven’t got rid of it in 13 days.

mawrgorshin.com/2018/09/23/the-psychoanalysis-of-narcissistic-parental-abuse/

This article was posted by someone on a different thread. Just reposting if useful/ relevant for anyone here.

So much good advice and support here. 💐💐

@Sicario You are so right...my mother wanted me to be a carbon copy, a clone of her, even as an adult. I was 'supposed' to:

1. Get married very young (pre 25) to a man on a very high wage
2. Have at least 3 children very quickly
3. Be a full-time SAHM who raised them all to be Good Catholics...

Only 3 little problems with those....

1. Got married at 21, was divorced by 24...my choice, it look me less than 6 months to realise I'd made a massive mistake. We should have split up, not got married...

1. I had never wanted children. Had always told my mother this. She didn't believe me. I'm now 53, never changed my mind. Neither of my brothers have had children, either...

1. Of course for most being a full-time SAHM hasn't been an option since the 90s. Even if I had had children I wouldn't have forced them to be Catholics like my mother did with me and my two brothers...even on my wedding day she tried to force me to go to confession. I didn't, I just sat at the back of the church for 30 minutes and thanked god I was getting away from her...

So yeah, I'm a massive disappointment to her, but like I always say, she's a massive disappointment to me so I'd say that scoresheet is even.

So everyone says I’m manipulating her. “Why choose to throw your life away when you could be helping people?”

Sorry everyone for the past few days. I am not dead but my mum has gone through my medical correspondence (why did I keep it?) with a reference to safeguarding in it and she has kept the letter and had a long conversation talking about how I am a liar and not to talk about her like that. I accept that I'm a useless drunk living in their house but I don't think that's appropriate (even when I was under 18 they still shouldn't have been reading my medical records). I feel like a terrible person, like I can't trust my own mind or memory, and that I'm a weak person as well. She then listed all of her friends whose children are fine even though they hit or punched them regularly as children, they are now adults.

I'm really sorry I've been posting so much, by the way. This thread has proved such a lifeline and I understand if everyone is losing patience.

Keep talking Cecile! I'm a lurker with a mostly normal family but my heart goes out to you. Unfortunately I can't see a way for you to get better until you're out from under your parents' control because they are head wreckers, both historical and current.

I may not know what to say but I am here listening

Thank you @kittykarate. I'm a bit desperate at the moment because I've been given an ultimatum of my parents choosing a place for me to move out or I have to say "I'm sorry, what I said was a lie". The old me would have said that but I know what happened. . I just don't know how to go about it without help. My mum puts me in a room and says things like "you've never once been in danger in this house" and refers to being raped as "having sex on the street". It appears I can't really safely call the helpline, try to find refuge, seek help in hospital any more so this is one of my only outlets.

By the way, my consultant recommended r/raisedbynarcissists on reddit in case that's helpful?

@CecileDeRetour I’d be tempted to take the place your parents offer you and then use that as a bolt hole to get help from. Set yourself targets. This is what I’ve done with mental health support. It’s tiring but worth it when it comes good. I don’t understand why you can’t get help from those places. Refuge, in particular, know all about coercive control, which is what you’re describing. Unfortunately, with all these agencies you have to keep pushing to get the result you want. Good luck!

Wow, therapy when it’s good, it’s good. I had my first session yesterday. The woman was brilliant.

It was great to have confirmation (again) that The Hag (MIL) is a coercive narcissist, that the boundaries I’ve put in place are 100% the best thing to do, that encouraging Mr Monkey to do the same is spot on, that she treats us appallingly and I’m right to limit the time I spend with her.

I had a waver over the weekend when we went out to a museum followed by lunch with my mum. Should I invite her? Nope.

Therapist explained that narcissists exploit people like me as I’m kind and that she created Mr Monkey to be kind. And a servant.

I know all this stuff from reading and ESPECIALLY from this brilliant forum, but it’s so good to have a professional vindicating my feelings about the VILE woman.

Feeling pissed off today at yet more gaslighting from my mother.

Rang her - my usual duty call that I make every other month or so - and asked her about something that happened after I divorced my 1st husband....I was 24, so 29 years ago.

I used all my financial settlement taking myself, my mother and my younger brother back to our home country. I still rate it in the top 3 of the worst mistakes I've made in my life, for various reasons. But what I wanted to know is why I was expected to pay a certain sum of money out of my financial settlement to one of my uncles when we returned...luckily said uncle 'forgave' the debt, saying we would need the money to set ourselves back up (which was true). For the life of me though, I can't remember what the original loan he had made was for! It definitely wasn't money that was given to me, so it must have been a loan to my mother...

Anyway I asked her last night. She completely denied that the whole incident had taken place, even went as far as telling me that I must have dreamt it! My brother still lives in the same city as her, but he's virtually impossible to get hold of. Said uncle died a couple of years ago, and there's no one else I can ask about it.

How do you deal with the anger of being so completely lied to by a parent?

@noirchatsdeux - it's shocking, isn't it? I was raised on a pack of lies. I also realised some time ago that it's totally pointless to try to investigate and unpick the web of untruths and gaslighting. It won't get you anywhere. All you get is either more lies, or excuses. Complete waste of time and energy.

Therapy is probably the right way to go. Talking of which...

@MonkeyfromManchester - have you gone privately for your therapist? Any tips on finding one who understands messed-up FOO stuff? I'm very wary of the "family comes first/family is everything" mindset.

By the way - is anyone watching the new BBC "Couples Therapy" series? All available on iPlayer. It's couples, rather than family dynamics, but still very interesting and insightful, particularly with the effects of childhood trauma on adults.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0b8kmch/couples-therapy

@noirchatsdeux they are absolute masters of lying. Your mum is the ‘good Catholic’ isn’t she? I often wonder how their behaviour works with their precious faith. Totally unacceptable. I don’t know how one deals with it apart from being (rightfully) angry and not trusting the bastards.

@Sicario it’s NHS. Supposedly to help me manage my bipolar better, but the session ended up being about The Hag. I think it’s about trawling the BACP website and testing a few out. You can get half an hour for free to see if you gel. With the pandemic, it’s easy to do that on zoom, but there is something to be said for seeing someone in person for body language etc to see if you strike up a rapport.

The rest of the day hasn’t been so fab. Obviously, I’m processing the shit about the Hag and my illness. I fucking hate her so much for adding to the hell of lockdown. I just hate her full stop.

Mr Monkey needs to go to therapy, but I’m sick of bringing it up. It has to be his decision so I’m leaving it now. He’s scared of people getting into trouble. Like your mum, Sicario, the Hag was really violent. If only the authorities did get involved years later and throw away the key, but they don’t.

She phoned. Think she’s trying to drag him back in. TBH, I’m past caring.

Moaning about her cold. Which is just a fucking cold. MM tries to persuade her to go to the Dr. Pointless as she enjoys stressing MM out, not to mention loving the attention.

Moaning about him not ringing her. The rule since the summer is that he DOESN’T ring her every day several times a day.

Saying she will get rid of her Carers which she tried to tell them not to come yesterday. Yeah, thanks for that, you Fucking witch, I spent weeks getting that in place last spring. Thankfully, the Carers said ‘no, we do need to come’. Who the actual fuck does The Hag think is going to look after her? Us? Popping round three times a day to administer eye drops. Does she think she’s going to live here? I think fucking not.

I just reminded Mr Monkey that I won’t deal with her. Thankfully, he talked her down. But WTAF?

And finally pertaining to no one ringing her, being neglected by her sons bla bla bla

MM: both me and Slave Son ring you during the week. The only son who doesn’t ring you is Narc Abusive Son who has fucked off the face of the earth and hasn’t been in touch with Mommy Dearest for, at least, five years - no card etc for her 80th birthday.

‘I don’t understand why he’s like that. I didn’t bring him up that way.’

Yes, you did, you witch. You made him into Golden Boy, just as you’ve created Slave Son and are trying to drive a wedge between me and Mr Monkey who’s doing his best to escape you.

I’m absolutely fucking sick of MM’s fucked up family. I just want to run away. But THAT is what the fucking c**t wants. Not enjoying today!

But think therapy is worth it despite a downer today. I know I’m vindicated and it’s her, NOT me.

@MonkeyfromManchester Yep, she is the 'good Catholic' who spent the rest of the call bitching about her only sister still alive, who is terminally ill with lung cancer and weighs 5 and a half stone ... she actually said 'oh I only weighed 6 stone when your older brother was born' WTF??? What has that to do with anything???? And btw, you are just over 5 foot, your sister is 5 foot 9 and I don't fucking believe you anyway.

You are doing the right thing re The Hag. I hate my partner's parents (particularly his father) and have refused to have anything to do with them for 7 years. He tried to get me to speak to his mother on Christmas Day and I refused. Don't think he was too happy but I'm past caring. They live 200 miles away, which makes it easier.

@Sicario I've been under the care of a shrink for the last few years due to my bipolar...obviously due to the pandemic further counselling on the NHS is virtually non-existent at the moment and I can't afford anything private. I did have CBT with a psychologist a few years ago but I didn't find it much help.

Monkey and Noir - sounds like you have got to the "I don't care any more" stage, which is actually very good news. This level of emotional detachment is (in my humble opinion) very healthy, and helps us to cement those all-important boundaries.

I had therapy many years ago (mainly due to work burnout), but never went into any of my childhood trauma or family of origin story. I do wonder about finding a therapist, but part of me thinks that I've pretty much managed to come out the other side of the NC debacle, so not much point now.

And this thread has been a total lifeline and a massive help in that process, and the wonderful @AttilaTheMeerkat has kindly scraped me off the ceiling a couple of times in the past and kept me on track.

I have absolutely no time for religion (raised strict Catholic). Some of those nuns were evil hate-filled bitches. My catholic mother was a hand-wringing guilt-ridden mess. My entry into puberty was regarded in a similar manner to the mother in Carrie. The shame that was poured on me was really something to behold.

@noirchatsdeux there must be a wholly different form of Catholicism that we’re not aware of. That’s horrible about your aunt. Do they not listen to the spleen that comes out of their mouths? And re weight loss. Your poor, poor aunt. I’m so sorry. They ALWAYS, ALWAYS turn it around to be about them. Can you ignore her phone calls or do you get the ‘I will phone you on every device going and send carrier pigeons round’ shit? They are just wonderful, aren’t they? Are they BRED somewhere? Do they compare NOTES? Is there a Book of Narc?

I think I’m just processing how vile hag was at Xmas hence mood. Off the fucking scale. Last time EVER. I think I’m going to have to go away for a few days to sort my head out. I’ve just tried to explain it to Mr Monkey. He thinks I’m ending it. I’m not, I just need space. The counselling has brought it all up again.

He kept saying: what can I do beyond what I’m doing? He’s done a lot - limiting calls, pushing back, taking all the stuff I did for her with her.

I’m not asking him to cut contact - that’s up to him - and I’m sick of asking him whether he’s following up on therapy which is what HE suggested he needed to do.

He just sat on the sofa, closed up which is what he does when there’s any sign of conflict because that’s how SHE made him. He hates conflict because of the constant violence in his house growing up. I’m fucking sick of her. This is EXACTLY what the cunt wants. To split us up.

Well, part of me wants to say be my Fucking guest, break your neck on our fucking stairs, ruin another son’s life and. I will live out my 50s outside of a toxic shitstorm. But, of course, I won’t because I love him.

But I definitely know that if we were, say, two years into a relationship before all this fuckery started in 2020 - I’d ignored it before - I would have walked. Which she would have loved. Absolute CUNT. She would have GLOATED.

She revealed it all last year when he offered to take her out for lunch after some appointment or other.

No, no, it’s alright you back to Monkey.

And kept saying it. Slave Son hasn’t had a relationship in FORTY years.

@Sicario if you’ve got the dosh, try BACP to find a counsellor. I think there is a charity that supports adult children who’ve survived abuse. I can’t remember its name. You are a wonderful support here. Your kindness and wisdom is brilliant. But sometimes we all need help ourselves. Big hugs. Xxxx

@AttilaTheMeerkat I appreciate your feedback but I don’t really feel you are in an informed position to comment on whether I have ‘nothing to do with them now’. The thread is a great support but it does not offer the full picture of real life. My relationship with my loved ones is way too personal and complex for you to be the judge on. We’ve never met, you don’t know the context and so much more I could say but won’t! I know you mean well, but people in vulnerable moments don’t always benefit from a definitive POV/advice from a stranger

Fair do's in that I do not know you (but the same applies to all the other posters on here, I have never met them either) but I'd still buy a coffee for you all.

I have seen all too many times both on here and on other forums how these relationships with such types go - further downhill for the person on the receiving end of parental abuses. Remember that you can only help one person here ultimately and that is your own self. Your stepmother and father remain united and she is with him anyway for her own reasons.

It's my mother's birthday in a few days. I can't decide what to do. I was thinking of sending her a blank card. No message, nothing written on the inside.

If I don't send anything I'll be discussed (more) to the relatives. But I can't bring myself to write happy birthday on a card. This woman just will not acknowledge that she hurt me, martyred up when I told her she hurt me, trashed me to the relatives, gave me the silent treatment, tried to bring me back to heel with small talk, when I wouldn't go for that, she gave me the silent treatment. She labelled my hurt a grudge and ''accusations'', her hurt (caused by my telling her that she hurt me) affected her health.

Because I stand firm in my own interpretation of events (that she hurt me) she has called me abusive, mentally ill, angry, blah blah blah. Her last message to me was ''get help'' and I regret letting her know this but I told her I'd been in therapy to help me accept that my parents do not care that they hurt me. No response at all. But I will the DEVIL if I don't send a card. I don't want to give them the ammunition.

What is the least affectionate way to 'mark' the birthday of somebody who is stonewalling you but also blaming you for the ''damage done to the family''.

@UserBot989 - I think the blank card would be a mistake as it could be viewed as game playing or passive-aggressive. You really don't want to get into that.

Do you feel you really need to send something? And if so, why? Is it because you're worried about what people will think if you send nothing? Because that's not something you can control and your relationship with your mother is already fraught with anxiety for you due to the past abuse.

My own solution for this horrible annual dilemma / guilt trip is that I have settled on sending my own mother a small thing of flowers for her birthday each year. The card says "Happy Birthday. Sicario."

This approach means that I don't have to pick up a pen and write something totally hypocritical or face the anxiety upset and anger at having to send her a card. It also means that I can't be accused of being a heartless devil-daughter for not bothering. So it kind of works for me.

I am totally NC with my mother and siblings, so this is the only "communication" from me. I don't know if it upsets her or whatever, but it solved the problem from my point of view so I don't feel desperately guilty or resentful. So the flowers are actually selfish, because it's me that feels better for the gesture. I don't really care about how anyone else views it.

(the card is written by the florist so I don't even have to write her name - or mine for that matter)

yeh, you're right. Passive Aggression is her thing.

It's exactly as you say, I just don't want her to enjoy telling relatives that I didn't even send a card on her birthday. If I send a card, a bland card and sign it, then that's as good a story.

@Sicario

(the card is written by the florist so I don't even have to write her name - or mine for that matter)

I like that. Just a cash transaction but she cannot say you didn't do anything.