October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

You are all so kind and supportive here thank you. The reason i know I’m in the right place through all my massive wobbles is when someone posts I go YES I RELATE TO THIS! That’s how I know I’m ok. You guys are my grounding.

And yes I presume it’s a threat she will contact my girls when they are older. Interesting I never gave her my new address. Her flying monkeys are covert ans very very clever.

@therealsmithfield awful, awful, AWFUL. Such a fundamental lack of respect for you. It is anxiety unearthed from childhood. I can see it Mr Monkey sometimes. I’m so sorry that you’ve had to experience that. Bin next time or have a 🔥 ceremony in the garden with a fantastic bottle of wine. She’s desperate to hurt you. No way will your children be interested in her when they’re older. The line is ‘Granny wasn’t very nice to mummy’ if they ever ask when they’re older. My friend has this line with her kids (and then because she’s a fucking c**t to me in the kitchen)

Hag doesn’t see her grandchildren, not because they are estranged, but because she’s emotionally stunted. They really don’t miss what they’ve never had.

Don’t ever guilt trip yourself about ‘depriving’ your kids of a GP. She is a leech and will visit toxic games on your kids - favouritism, undermining, love bombing - if you let her in. Don’t. They have a FAB mum in you, they don’t need your TM. Xxx

Hag is a fucking dickhead. She will be really confused as neither strategies worked. I keep having to keep ‘kind me’ in check. I nearly said to MM over dinner you could ask her near Xmas if she’s changed her mind. Stabbed my self with my fork. But, no, if I did she will push for more and more and ruin it.

She has acted like a witch, THIS is what she gets. Must say, I feel pretty cheered up by it.

Mr Monkey needs to phone Slave Brother to say invitation was offered but she refused and HE’S got the house guest glowering in his front room watching Heartbeat at 500 decibels, nagging him about how much he drinks, letting in the feral cats, deliberately causing arguments and sulking when he goes to the social club without her. She worked there for 30 years (yet more enmeshed shit) and will dream of swanning** in there to her adoring public (bus she has nothing to wear, but, never mind that, GREAT Narc Tokens)

Slave Son doesn’t stand up to her. If he had brains he could book a pub lunch, take her and then dump her. He’s so cowed by her. Dipshit. Run out of patience with him, but, at least, he doesn’t moan. He takes it all passively.

**But not as much as she will be dreaming about my mum’s amazing trifle.

Nearer the time she will ramp up Slave Son’s disabilities so our answer will be he can go round to yours. All on one level. You’re not so good with Mummy Monkey’s stairs…FUCK OFF.

@therealsmithfield oh much better to punish your children through the kindly granny BS with your children. I think it’s another way of making you feel bad. They don’t mean a word of it. Pure entitlement and game playing. Hag does nice nana with GSs - it’s bollocks. I don’t think she sees the disconnect between this and the damage to her sons (and now me)

@Readingtoaster it’s a great place. So much recognition of the reality of the situation. I would not have survived the last two years without it. TM will have fed the FMs some mawkish BS, no doubt.

@therealsmithfield MonkeyfromManchester is right. My mother never stopped slagging our grandmother and uncles off - usually in front of me and my brothers - and then wondered why none of us were that keen to spend time with them. Of course the reason was my mother wanted to have her cake and eat it - she knew if she allowed them access to us she could then ask them for 'help' - babysitting and financial.

Years later, when I was 22, she told me that the uncle me and my brothers spent the most time with - usually on our own - sexually assaulted her when she was a pre-teen. I still can't work that one out...

@noirchatsdeux it’s just so cynical, isn’t it? They don’t see the problem.
Jesus H Christ re your uncle. Totally shocking behaviour by your mother.

I've been in and out of these threads. I've gone completely NC with mother & brother today; straw that broke camel's back.
Looking for another job in order to escape family business and then I can cut them off completely.
They will never change, however much I've kidded myself.

@HotelCaliforniaOnRepeat a big hug. Xxx will be back in the morning xxx kindness to yourself. You’ve done the right thing. Xxx

@noirchatsdeux that’s horrific . It absolutely astounds me just how utterly lacking in basic adulting skills someone like your mother be . Not even the wherewithal to safeguard her child from a predator. It must cut you to the core but but maybe an immense amount of anger too. How dare she put you in harms way like that.

@HotelCaliforniaOnRepeat - well done for saying no and drawing a line ! How are you feeling about it. You will probably feel a rollercoaster of feelings but it will be worth it. Emotional and physical freedom to be whoever we are meant to be and to live in peace is something to be coveted, guarded and treasured!

Yes regarding GCs it’s all a lot of hot air and guff… once I’m in my adult head I realise she can’t touch me or my kids. Let’s face it that would mean they ( toxics) would have to put themselves out and make an effort . Not a chance in hell of that happening.

@Readingtoaster - I had the exact same reaction to a package that arrived just before Christmas last year with my toxic sister’s handwriting on it. My reaction was visceral. It made me feel physically sick and felt like a massive breach of my boundaries (she knew damn well by this point that I’d gone NC). I threw the whole thing in the bin. She only ever sent us total crap wrapped up in angry paper anyway.

We moved away shortly after and none of my family of origin have my new address. It was the final piece of going NC. This house feels CLEAN because it's unviolated by my fucked-up birth family.

Well done do you @HotelCaliforniaOnRepeat - that's a big step and takes a lot of strength. It's a terrible shock when we finally realise and accept that our family is toxic. Breaking the cycle by walking away is the first step in recovery. Hats off to you.

Something I heard recently which sums up narc behaviour – a narc will stab you in the back then insist they’re the one who’s bleeding.

@therealsmithfield In my last phone call with my mother, I was asking her why, when our first move abroad with my father's work went very wrong (3rd world country, younger brother had a severe allergic reaction that almost killed him) we didn't just return to Oz, instead of inflicting yet another fucking move on us to a another country (UK). (We ended up moving countries 4 times that year).

She actually had the nerve to blame it on my grandmother and uncles, saying (in the most smarmy unauthentic faux-caring voice ever) , and I quote: "We did it to protect YOU, noirchatsdeux"... I was so stunned, I didn't think to reply with the obvious "So why didn't you protect me from that particular uncle for the first 10 years of my life, Mum? Why did you let me and my brothers spend whole DAYS alone with said uncle before we left? Could it be because having a day to yourself was more important than making sure your only daughter wasn't molested by a paedophile?"

And now I get stupid fucking cunts on other threads telling me to 'forgive' Fuck them.

Thank you for your replies. Definite rollercoaster. I know I can't look back with them, I need to try to maintain with my other sibling as they aren't as bad and I don't want to lose contact with the DNs.
I think BIL will understand as he gets pissed off with them too.
It's going to be hard short term, but the long term will be better than the shit I have lived with.

Practical advice please: what do you do when your NC parent/enabler turns up unannounced at your home?

Scared the shit out of me; I was out at the time and got smart-home notifications of a blurry looking stranger peering in through my windows. Only realised who it was when about to call police, thinking I was getting burgled.

I wish they'd leave me alone, or at least think - are their actions supportive of their end goal, i.e. have relationship with offspring? Even if I'm the one in the wrong here, which is probably what they think - is the best way to change someone's mind to stalk and harass them until they're scared of every buzz their phone makes and don't feel safe in their home?

@noirchatsdeux people can’t relate to it . They can’t get their head around it most of the time . I have tried with several friends but hit a brick wall. I get that in the twilight years many would be putting their parents needs above their own.What people in rl don’t understand is that that’s generally a lovely reciprocal arrangement where your paying back what you had as a child. Lucky for them! I’ve had to put my parents needs ahead of my own since I was born. No one has the right to judge or inform you if they’ve not walked in your shoes.

@TirisfalPumpkin - what the fuck? Are you totally NC or can you send a message saying "do not come to my house. you are not welcome here."

By the way, I was watching Dr Ramani on YouTube last night. She has some very insightful short videos about narcs in the various dynamics (parents, in-laws, and a very insightful one about siblings).

www.youtube.com/c/DoctorRamani

I've watched quite a few Dr Ramani vids recently. Some it is a bit clickbait but some I did find helpful.

I'm totally NC with my mother. I had hoped to maintain a relationship with my dad, who initially seemed to be doing the 'head in sand, I'm stuck in the middle, wish you two would make friends' routine but seems to have morphed into full enabler willing use his continued access to me to do whatever mum wants. Clever people on this thread spotted this from my earlier posts, way before I did. I looked back and was like, wow, when my mum physically restrained me to stop me leaving the house in front of him and he tried to convince me it didn't happen, I was so deep in the FOG. I still thought he had my back and was trying not to take sides, but he absolutely does not.

I think the incomprehension of people not involved in these kinds of relationships is kind of a defence mechanism. They don't like to think a parent could value their child's utility as a punchbag more than the child as a person, cos that implies these psychopaths walk among us and they might be friends with one. So they get stuck in this happy midpoint fallacy where problems are always partially caused by both parties and compromise and understanding and kindness are the answer.

@sicario your clean, untainted house sounds enviable and amazing. I wonder if it's possible to de-taint contaminated spaces. Sage? Exorcist? I really don't want to move. I have got a locksmith coming though.

@TirisfalPumpkin I would have still called the Police, told them exactly who it was and then let the Police have a word with them about not going where they aren't welcome. I'd also be looking at getting a restraining order.

I like the idea of both sage and exorcism- maybe tell your dad you called the police as you didn’t know it was him straight away? Might serve as a deterrent? @TirisfalPumpkin

TM is starting back down the ill health path again … so sick myself… of this shit show. Should have remained blocked . Extremely LC is impossible !

I also saw a YT on how we protect the enabling parent in our minds. It’s a fantasy’s we protect because the reality of having two shit parents is too much. I did this with my dad. It’s very painful to come to terms with. It’s a fantasy that kept / gave me the illusion of keeping me safe as a kid.

Feeling really sick today. So complicated. I feel like I lose whatever I do, I've put so much time and effort in to the business and they will get it all. I can't get that time with my kids back. I'm in a difficult financial position too; really hope I can get a good job.

@HotelCaliforniaOnRepeat that’s stressful for you to have to deal with that at the same time.
Working with them busy have been incredibly difficult. I’m guessing they used this to beat you with. You will find another job it’s an employee’s market right now. Your going to thrive !

Sorry for the typos I need to either invest in glasses or stop using mobile to write on here

@HotelCaliforniaOnRepeat I think it is hardcore at the start because you’ve had the toxicity all your life. But blimey the liberation. I’m LC with my toxic MIL aka The Hag after two years of hell. I still get twinges of guilt, I get tons of support here to drop that guilt. It’s not worth it. THEY do not have one ounce of guilt about us. We are here for you, you will get another job and one with much less emotional baggage.

@TirisfalPumpkin Jesus h Christ. It’s the season of Ill will to all men, especially your family. Ramp it up for Xmas. So many people have noticed this. No advice but a huge FUCK OFF sign outside your house. We will have a whip round. Absolute no boundary respect. Definitely sage round the house. Hag hasn’t been in here since the Spring which is just wonderful. Bleached it after she’d been here.

I TOTALLY get people mean about others not ‘getting it’. I just find that lack of insight dim. Believe your friend, put yourself in their shoes. FFS.

@Sicario
Checking those videos out, as let’s face it the Xmas shit is going to play and play as the Hag has realised she’s fucked up on her options. NOT backing down. Need to gird my loins and get empowered by those films. As well as you ladies.

@therealsmithfield it’s always the best guilt and Narc Show, isn’t it? I’m considering a block booking to Dignatas.

Feeling good today. Motored through the work. Coughing less. Feeling stronger. Xxx

OMFG just watched only ONE video about toxic in-laws and discovered some new things about the Hag.

She will send her GSs tons of money at Xmas / birthdays, but won’t ring because she has to engage with sister in law (ex-wife of Golden Boy) Hag rings her two sons (Slave and Mr Monkey constantly), she does not ring SIL. She is lovebombing the kids with £. When she DOES see them, she suffocates them as signal to SIL. All the time saying how wonderful SIL is for bringing them up as single parent because this trope is what she’s ‘supposed’ to say. Must stick in her throat. Are we supposed to praise Hag as amazing singer parent?

The one who she controls the most (Slave Son) has no romantic relationship. He’s her ‘husband’.

My mum is resented because I’m a carbon copy of her and my mum has created a new family for Mr Monkey. Hag can reject my mum by not joining in and digs, because she doesn’t dare reject me as MM loves me and Hag knows I’d rip her Fucking throat out if she tried to damage our relationship more than she’s tried before.

Further revelation…

Last year, Hag positively revelled in my mum having a shit time at Christmas “oh, how will she cope without seeing her sister”, “not seeing her son and his boyfriend at Xmas” “being on her own””. My mum went to see my brother and boyfriend, broke the rules (she is so law abiding) and we did a massive family pissed up FaceTime. Xmas is where the Hag sees a much loved and respected person in the centre of her family, Jesus, it must make her choke. Hence Xmas being such a battle of wills. Hag was on her own last year because of Narc rage.

Tuning in for the one on Narc rage later. Getting the popcorn.