Can't or won't?

[Jeremyspoke]

So DH and I have wasted yet another weekend arguing over the way he speaks to me when he gets stressed. Things can be 100% brilliant for us, getting on well, sex life good, work going well and everything peachy but then he'll (for instance) be running a bit late for something or have lots of things to get done in a short time so feel a bit pressured and it's like he switches on me. He'll snap at me, speak to me in a really derisory way, tut and roll his eyes when I'm speaking and generally display in his body language, tone and way of speaking and facial expressions that he's pissed off, with me being the apparent cause/target.

It makes me livid and hurt in equal measure and I don't hold back in telling him how it makes me feel, hence the wasted weekend, but he can't seem to accept that being stressed is no reason to be horrible to me. He will eventually concede that he needs to handle stress differently/better and I will get a halfhearted apology (which always has a 'but' at the end so isn't really/doesn't feel like an apology) but there's never any genuine remorse or sense of him wanting to 'make it up' to (or even with) me, he doesn't appear to care that he's upset me and will let days go by with me barely speaking to him (because I've withdrawn to protect myself from being blindsided again by him snapping at me when I thought everything was good) rather than make any effort to put things right between us.

He isn't the best communicator and I do sometimes get the feeling he wants to approach me to try to smooth things over but doesn't know how or is afraid I'll knock him back but tbh im losing patience with that as an excuse. The worst of it is I could forgive the odd snappy comment under pressure if he would just stop switching into Mr-Hyde-mode and looking at, speaking to and treating me like I'm his worst enemy and the source of all his problems and show a bit of remorse for the occasions when he does snap, I don't expect him to be perfect.

I have warned him that it's chipping away at my love for him, that eventually he will kill our marriage altogether but he just looks confused and says nothing in response. I can see it makes him miserable when we argue so it makes even less sense that he wouldn't a) try to stop the behaviour that starts the whole thing, and b) apologise properly and show some concern and remorse when it does happen. So is it that he won't, or that he genuinely can't/doesn't know how? It makes no sense to me that he would potentially let our marriage go down the pan rather than apologise so that leaves me thinking it must be can't but I couldn't spell out any more clearly what I need from him so I don't understand why he can't?

How often does this happen? is it happening once in 6 months or once a week?

Sorry to jump on here and not have any advice for you. But I feel like we’re living the same life. Only I’m not married and he’s literally already chipped away at, well, pretty much anything I ever felt for him. When something doesn’t go his way, I get the backlash. Somehow my fault. Name calling starts and I used to lose it. Then I’d get made out to be a nut job for sticking up for myself against his disgusting behaviour.. I barely communicate with him now and it’s really sad. I need to leave but don’t know how to 🤷🏻‍♀️

@Jeremyspoke

You said it yourself,

It makes me livid and hurt in equal measure and I don't hold back in telling him how it makes me feel, hence the wasted weekend, but he can't seem to accept that being stressed is no reason to be horrible to me

He doesn't accept that it's neither fair nor reasonable to talk to you that way.

He doesn't agree that such behavior even deserves an apology.

He chooses to keep doing it ! (If you really believe it's outwith his 'control', then why doesn't he behave that way with others ? e.g his boss/colleagues/friends/family/neighbours etc etc ??)

He's already done it how many times ? Without a proper apology or accepting the 'blame' ?? So, for him, it's worth the argument/upset and the gradual erosion of your love for him, because as far as he's concerned, nothing has changed, has it ?

It's simply up to you how much you are willing to put up with

OP, abuse doesn’t have to come in the form of beatings, or wait for things to get too bad to be acted upon. I would try the marriage counselling route to see if he gets it, if he doesn’t you may need to accept that you can’t change him but it in your hands to put up with it it not. Nobody enjoys walking in eggshells regularly to put up with an adult who has no control over his temper.

And yes, the fact he doesn’t give a hoot about how he is making you feel and is convinced you make him react like (no self accountability) it is pretty much within abusers’ territory. Don’t let it go on for longer.

The only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is none and you are not a rehab center for some badly raised man either.

If counselling is to be considered here do this on your own. Joint counselling is never recommended where there is abuse of any type within the relationship and what you are describing here is an abusive relationship. He does not have to hit you to hurt you and what you are also describing is the nice/nasty cycle of abuse which is a continuous one. Like practically all abusers as well, he is looking to blame you. Such men also never apologise nor take any responsibility for their actions.

I would think it a given that you are the only one subjected to this from him. He does not behave like this to work colleagues or people in the outside world.

Gosh I could have written this about my DD's dad. He was exactly the same. Angry, nasty and would blame myself and anyone else before he ever blamed himself. It got worse Op, I'm sorry. It gets the the point where the issue isn't him anymore because you are then choosing to put up with it yourself, that's how I felt. It is abuse. Especially if he knows how you feel and he still won't get help. He does it to punish you.
I didn't see it at the time. I just felt like I was walking on eggshells and that I couldn't do anything right.
You cannot change a person if they don't want to change themselves. You shouldn't have to change a person. The only thing you can change is your situation and your actions, and it sounds like simply putting up with it isn't working.

Thank you all for your replies, I can only get on here for 5 minutes here and there today so will pick up on the many good points made later when I have more time but the thing that really stuck out for me was what you said Justbecauseofit about him punishing me. That's exactly how I feel, that he's punishing me but what I don't understand is what on earth is he punishing me for? We had problems with sex for years and I always assumed it was that but that side of things is better than it's ever been now so I don't understand where this need to punish me is coming from Assuming you're all right and this is abuse what goes on in an abusers head that tells them they need to punish the person they're supposed to love?

You are suppposed to find a for yourself. They act vague and leave you the task of finding a reason why you have to be careful. You come up with a reason (e.g. "I am not giving him the sex he wants"), you feel bad and you tiptoe round him, rather than calling him out for bad behaviour, complaining, asking him to do stuff he doesn't want to etc. And he gets to vent all his stress off onto another person.

Shit, that's far more true than I care to admit ravenmum.

I have warned him that it's chipping away at my love for him, that eventually he will kill our marriage altogether but he just looks confused and says nothing in response

If he doesn't respect this, you need to decide a boundary, tell him, and stick to it. The ongoing 'it's chipping away' could go on for years, and he's using that to his advantage.

I imagine you'd be a bit nervous to say to him 'If you do that one more time, this marriage is over. Do you understand me?', wouldn't you?

The main aim of abuse is to gain control over you, because on the inside they are inherently out of control (but do not possess the insight to be able to see this).

By shouting and belittling you, he gains control and it makes him feel GOOD. Feeling superior to you bolsters his crippling sense of inferiority (again they have no insight into this) and projecting onto you (by blaming you for example) shows their inability to accept responsibility for their own actions.

Abusers are often extremely emotionally immature and what you are witnessing is narcissistic rage (basically an adult having a tantrum). This type of personality are low on empathy (shown by his unwillingness to change despite knowing how it makes you feel), enjoy conflict and the rules will keep changing to keep the abuse cycle going, which keeps them in control. His actions reflect his deeply selfish character. He doesn't care about your feelings and ultimately that's enough to leave.

I'm sorry OP but you are in an abusive relationship

I can relate to this, definitely.

I’m not excusing your partner’s behaviour at all but, for me and my husband, i have begun trying to identify what (if anything) this may be linked to or correlated to.

I’ve realised that my husband’s moody behaviour is not too dissimilar to his dad’s. This was useful as I was able to discuss it with him and he could actually see the parallel. It helped me to understand why perhaps he acts as though the behaviour is normal/ acceptable. It helped him to understand how behaving that way might affect the others in his life and not be such a good trait to have.

I’m also looking out to see whether he is more likely to behave this way after drinking alcohol/ when hungover. At the moment it’s just a theory but I’m trying to figure out whether there might be a link. If I think there is, I’ll discuss with him. (He doesn’t drink excessively and I’m not concerned about alcohol misuse or addiction but my dad is an alcoholic and I might be more sensitive to alcoholic behaviours than some other people are).

We often replicate our parents' relationship with each other, or with us. Did your parents teach you how to stand up for what you feel? To listen to and respect your feelings? Did they listen to and respect each others' feelings? @Jeremyspoke @ViaRia

ViaRia

What are you getting out of this relationship now?.

I would urge you to not go down this rabbit hole i.e trying to understand why he acts as he does towards you. He does this because he can and he feels entitled to treat you like this. Its also learnt behaviour from his father; after all we learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents. Look too at what you learnt; you may well be codependent in relationships and put the needs of all others above your own. He may well promise to change but he needs years of therapy to undo that if it is ever undone. Don't waste your life waiting for him to have some epiphany that may not likely happen. You are also not some rehab centre for such a badly raised man.

Sulking behaviour too is an example of emotional abuse. Remember always that he only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is none.

@AttilaTheMeerkat Wow, how rude! I am not the OP and I am not seeking advice. I am sharing my experience of how I have approached a similar situation and how it has (for me) helped to approach mature and useful discussion with my husband. I am very happily married but my husband is not perfect and neither am I.

@TheFoundations no, my parents did not teach me to stand up for how I feel. I’ve since learnt how to do that through therapy and with the guidance of the Al-Anon programme.

I’ve mentioned already how I believe we may each have inherited some of our flaws from our parents / upbringing. Understanding what these are helps us to communicate how we feel and to support one another.

Please do not reply as I do not wish to discuss anything further.

@ViaRia

AttilaTheMeerkat Wow, how rude!

Nope. Not Rude. Not one bit
It was helpful, insightful and that advice may well help others (like it did for me) assert and establish boundaries.

(To @AttilaTheMeerkat and all the other wise ones, a heartfelt thank you)

[quote FredWinnie]@ViaRia

AttilaTheMeerkat Wow, how rude!

Nope. Not Rude. Not one bit
It was helpful, insightful and that advice may well help others (like it did for me) assert and establish boundaries.

(To @AttilaTheMeerkat and all the other wise ones, a heartfelt thank you)[/quote]
Seconded!

My brain has moved at warp speed today, so many lightbulbs going on and things clicking into place I feel like everything has changed in a day. This has obviously been coming for a long time and I knew some of what was in your replies already but I think i'm finally ready to do something about it. It won't be quick, I need a job first and foremost but that actually feels doable today for the first time in a long time. I've run the mental equivalent of a marathon today and my brain is mush now so apologies for not replying properly when you've all helped so much, hopefully things will be calmer tomorrow and I can thank you properly.

It is absolutely startling how much all of these cases sound exactly like my DP. It drives me CRACKERS. My DP blames me for everything. If he forgets his wallet, it’s my fault for not reminding him! He can sometimes be incredibly belittling - calling me a silly little girl, telling me I’m immature and spoilt, etc etc. The thing is, it’s all so wildly far off the mark there’s no way to counter it. It’s just absolute unjustified nonsense. I’m younger than him but a professional 37 year old woman who just happens to be better educated than he is. It hurts him.

He is without a doubt a vulnerable (rather than grandiose) narcissist. I’ve known this since we first met but foolishly thought I was strong enough to handle it. In actual fact, it’s the drip-drip of gentle nastiness and undermining that get to me. A chipping away, like you describe OP.

It’s not all bad and there are times that are fun, relaxing and enjoyable. But I’m not sure I can cope with being with him much longer. I had NEVER properly lost my temper before this relationship, and I’m ashamed to say he can make me do that. A fly on the wall would think I was a madwoman at times.

I’m in a similar position to you OP, in that I’m getting myself ready to leave. I’m using the next few months to save like a demon - I want to be able to put a deposit down on a small flat and get a mortgage in 12 months time. I just need to endure this a bit longer. Trying to ignore all the horrible behaviour is probably the best thing, but not easy..

I read a lot from the Gottman Institute about relationships and they have discovered that the presence of contempt - which this definitely is - spells the end of your relationship. They can predict with 90% accuracy which relationships will survive by studying how they interact in day to day life. Google the Four Horsemen - criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling. Those four things (or indeed 2 or 3 of them) with any regularity mean you will most likely split up.

They were all present quite often in mine and DP’s relationship early on and have nearly destroyed it several times. But having identified the patterns and stood up for what I need - tolerance, respect and good communication - we’re now in a much better place and stronger than ever.

You can overcome it, but only if both of you are willing to change your behaviour (mainly him by the sound of it, but I know that I certainly had my own unhelpful patterns that contributed to our problems).

Applied for a job today, haven't worked in 15 years so feels like a big deal. Still can't seem to find the words to post in depth about how I'm feeling, I'm a bit numb and doing things in some kind of autopilot, but at least I'm doing something I suppose.

I've known for a long time that the way he behaves isn't right but have been avoiding naming it in my head. Now it's like I've named it and it's galvanised me into action but I can't process how I feel about it, I suppose I'm acting on instinct to try to protect myself.

I've made excuses in the past about how separating would be too hard, too many obstacles in the way etc but this time I'm just ploughing on with the things I know I need to do to be able to manage on my own. I still don't even know if I'm actually going to do it but I at least need to know I could if that makes sense? Sorry for rambling, my mind doesn't feel very clear at all but it's helping to have somewhere to dump my thoughts.

I still don't even know if I'm actually going to do it but I at least need to know I could if that makes sense?

It makes perfect sense. The more independent you are, the more able you will feel to stand up to him. At the moment, you both know that you have nowhere to run. That's why he knows he can do and say what he likes and you have to put up with it, because right now you have no alternative.

I'm afraid your husband needs to grow up, but he can't because he's too immature to do it. No matter how carefully you try to explain your feelings and needs, he is unlikely to take any notice because he doesn't really see why he should. Don't let him keep you trapped in this constant cycle of abuse.

It is difficult when you've been in the fog of a relationship for a long time which has gradually got worse and the abusive behaviour has ramped up. Just wanted to say that 100% you will have a happier life without walking on eggshells with someone like him for the rest of your life. Working and looking after kids become so much easier when you haven't got your mental strength being chipped away at by someone like this. Well done.