Explaining "toxic masculinity" to male children coming of age

[frozendaisy]

Unfortunately many of us, I would say all actually to one degree or another, come across toxic masculinity in all aspects of life.

Our 13 yr old and I got chatting about respect, he firmly believes rightly that respect is earnt, then there was a set-to at school between a boy and a girl (year 8) and it talk progressed about equality and "well it's just the same if a boy hits a girl" to which I counteracted that at the moment some girls might be stronger than boys but as you fully develop in general males are stronger than females and then gave him stats on domestic abuse/violence and cohesion as best I could.

But these conversations are going to continue and get more complicated (really looking forward to the porn expectation choking/anal ones.........assuming his dad will cover that please dear god for the love of christ).

So what needs to most definitely NOT be left out no matter how difficult the conversation.

I get into a fair bit of bother calling out sexism, racism, intimidation in our local. I still do it I don't think it should be left unchallenged.

But moulding young minds. It's a minefield.

If anyone has anything to add to contribute to help us not only rear lovely young men (fingers crossed) but men who will call out their peers if need be. That's what I think the toxic masculinity world could do with a bit more of.

It's an interesting one!

I think, it's important to point out that toxic masculinity affects men, too. When it is made harder for them to step outside male stereotypes, to be in touch with their feelings, to be able to feel emotions other than lust, or anger, such as sorrow, and fear. Which leads to higher levels of suicide etc, amongst young me.

Also, while respect must be earned, courtesy, and respectful behaviour, should be given as a matter of course. This is a matter of self respect, and also treating others as you wish to be treated.

When it comes to violence, no-one should be hitting or shoving anybody. But, as I pointed out to one young fella, who had shoved back after being shoved one times too many by his girlfriend, when push comes to shove, it's a lot more likely that allegations of domestic violence by a woman will be taken more seriously, than by a woman against a man. Also, statistically, men can, and do, engender more harm against women, and more serious harm. So learning to walk the hell away is a very good lesson for all to learn. (Given how hard it can be to get the authorities to take domestic violence allegations by women at all seriously, that's rather depressing, really, isn't it?)

I think also, it's not just talking at them, it's discussing with them? What kind of man does he want to be? How does he define being a man? Would he be okay seeing his mate mistreat his girlfriend? Would he intervene if he saw a girl in trouble? Does he think that rating women on their looks, their tits and their bum, is okay?

NB. I don't have boys.

Just to add to that, I flatted with a very masculine, very angry, very blokey, engineering student. He came home one day to find me in floods of tears. His very good mate, who he'd spent three years in uni' with, had got pissed off with me, and pushed me into, and up against a wall, to get me out of his way. (He could have just said excuse me, but there you go). After ascertaining what had happened, a very cold, hard look came across his face, and he went and 'discussed' my boyfriends behaviour with him, resulting in an apology and nothing like that ever happening again.

I don't know what was said or done, but that dude remains, to this day, one of my heroes!

Excellent points. All will be incorporated.

Toxic masculinity manifests in many ways due to socialisation of men to the detriment of women and/or men. You’ve covered domestic violence and said your DH would cover sexual relationships... so to add to those two:

• Machismo culture where men feel they should fight other men over actual or perceived insults against their girlfriend, sister, mother. It’s an attitude that just perpetuates cycles of violence and objectifies women.

-Patriarchal family dynamics where the man is raised to see himself as provider to his wife/family and not a nurturer. This results in women being left to juggle work and childcare/house chores while the man thinks his contribution of working is enough. Result of that is broken families, divorce, children raised without a good fathers influence.

• Men don’t cry. Socialisation of men to internalise their feelings and view mental health problems as weakness leads directly to men’s higher suicide rate.

• Men’s pathological avoidance of doctors. Socialisation of men also i

results in them being far less likely to seek medical attention for physical ailments. They tend to complain and take to their bed or pretend nothing is wrong, but either way seeing a doctor is a last resort.

-Job status linked to danger level. Boys are socialised towards the most dangerous jobs. Such as firefighter, police, military, construction heavy equipment driver, fishers, wind farm repairman, mountain climber, etc. Which is why more men die in work mishaps than women.

We want to be part of the solution that breaks this cycle. That's why I am asking now as eldest is more than on the cusp of being able to deal with these issues and conversations. And they are conversations not parental lectures.

We briefly started to cover domestic abuse, introducing financial control, controlling who your partner sees, what they wear. All briefly we still have years of these conversations to go. But still I want as many angles, contributions, everything as possible.

And yes it is partly selfish, I don't want their lives ruined over some imaginary perceived slight or misplaced expectation of "respect".

And their dad has only agreed that "it's probably best" he covers the porn bit as they are likely to be thinking "world swallow me now" and not listen if their mother does it. I did offer.

Don't tell your boys that they are toxic

That in itself is toxic.

Masculinity has many many positive traits and do not think that all male traits can be put under the label of toxic. it's gross and will do your boy no good at all.

Just raise them to be good men who can shoulder responsibility and feel free enough to attack life with vigour. Not men who are frightened to express their masculinity because it will be seen as being toxic .

Where have you got to on consent? My DD had a pretty horrific lesson about consent, where only she and one other (female) student, in a class of 32, were vocally calling out opinions like, 'if she's drunk, it doesn't matter', 'if she was dressed like that, she was showing what she was up for', and 'if she says yes, it's yes, and there's no going back'.

@hamstersarse
Good point. Toxic masculinity is not all masculinity and it’s driven by socialisation influencing boys world view as they grow up, not because boys are inherently toxic.

Been saying "no means no" to them since they were very young. To get them used to "no" with no explanation needed. Baby-introducing them to personal boundaries, both their own and others.

I have not told my children they are toxic. I have introduced to the eldest that there are toxic traits in people.

I am asking for input so I can give them the best toolbox growing up to recognise these traits if/when they arise in not only them but others around them.

I have introduced the reality that incels exist, that it's all blue pill red pill shit online, not quite so graphic yet, but I will not hesitate to do so as and when.

@mbosnz

Where have you got to on consent? My DD had a pretty horrific lesson about consent, where only she and one other (female) student, in a class of 32, were vocally calling out opinions like, 'if she's drunk, it doesn't matter', 'if she was dressed like that, she was showing what she was up for', and 'if she says yes, it's yes, and there's no going back'.

Think our 10 yr old is already more advanced on consent than this class.

Although this unfortunately confirms why I am asking for advice. These views are widespread and it's now, just turning 13, I feel I need to get some dialogue going that is trusted between myself, dad and out two males offspring.

I hope when our consent lessons happen they do not contribute to making the females in the class feel as your daughter did.

(Perhaps the porn conversation needs to happen sooner than envisioned......)

I think it's very tough with boys not to make them feel under attack; that men are the source of all evil. We talked, and still talk, about how notions of masculinity can be very constraining for men and can be heavily policed by other men with violence and bullying.

We've had some interesting discussions about abortion, surrogacy and the way the press talks about male violence - the 'loving father pushed too far' BS.

If you bring up domestic violence and controlling behaviour it's worth telling him that men experience this too but due to the way society views masculinity, few men seek help. Same with sexual violence. I tried to make it clear that the balance of DV and sexual violence is committed by men but as parents I think we should be equipping them not to be victims themselves.

We also talked about entitlement and how society can give males the message that they are more important, that their careers/needs/dreams come first and that women are there to support them.

It's worth asking boys to be aware of negative stereotypes and to question how that shapes our worldview of men and women. Point out how different clothing is for boys and girls.

As others have said, much of the conversation should focus on being compassionate for all people and doing the right thing, even when that so often isn't the easy path to take.

@hamstersarse

Don't tell your boys that they are toxic

That in itself is toxic.

Masculinity has many many positive traits and do not think that all male traits can be put under the label of toxic. it's gross and will do your boy no good at all.

Just raise them to be good men who can shoulder responsibility and feel free enough to attack life with vigour. Not men who are frightened to express their masculinity because it will be seen as being toxic .

This ^

I have brought up what I consider to be a "really lovely young man" and have dn and friends' (adult) children and my dcs' friends who are all also lovely without going through all these conversations and without suggesting to them in anyway they are toxic because they are male or that all females will come across what you are calling toxic masculinity.
I have also brought up 2 now adult daughters without suggesting to them that they will be treated badly.
I (and my friends from what I can see) bring up our dc to treat everyone how they would like to be treated themselves. To be aware that unfortunately there will always be people in society that don't follow that thinking, and how to try to avoid being in difficult situations and how to help anyone that they feel isn't being treated right. But that means anyone. I don't obsess about men / women and I don't 'presume' anything about their behaviour.

I had 8/10 people round a table in the pub this summer. They were all.....oh well I dunno, overtly racist, and definitely stunted in the feminism department. Even my friend who agreed with what I was saying stayed quiet whilst I was debated on all sides about how persecuted white males are now.

It was late, the kids had gone home with their dad, honestly my kids would have spoken up with me. So 8 v 1, random pub table, not one other male or female there said a word against the poor white males of today. Not one.

I came home to my H ranting my disgust. He wasn't surprised. I don't get out much!

There is so much weird stuff online you fight with as well in this day and age of pornhub in your pocket.

@frozendaisy

Unfortunately many of us, I would say all actually to one degree or another, come across toxic masculinity in all aspects of life.

Our 13 yr old and I got chatting about respect, he firmly believes rightly that respect is earnt, then there was a set-to at school between a boy and a girl (year 8) and it talk progressed about equality and "well it's just the same if a boy hits a girl" to which I counteracted that at the moment some girls might be stronger than boys but as you fully develop in general males are stronger than females and then gave him stats on domestic abuse/violence and cohesion as best I could.

But these conversations are going to continue and get more complicated (really looking forward to the porn expectation choking/anal ones.........assuming his dad will cover that please dear god for the love of christ).

So what needs to most definitely NOT be left out no matter how difficult the conversation.

I get into a fair bit of bother calling out sexism, racism, intimidation in our local. I still do it I don't think it should be left unchallenged.

But moulding young minds. It's a minefield.

If anyone has anything to add to contribute to help us not only rear lovely young men (fingers crossed) but men who will call out their peers if need be. That's what I think the toxic masculinity world could do with a bit more of.

My observation is that you believe respect is earned.

Respect is due to everyone unconditionally. You may want to think about putting that first.

Change your mindset.

We don't obsess, that's why I ask here.

And they have an amazing dad role model. Which I can only assume helps.

But I see in the world, I'm not sure where it comes from, but general society, adult society, seems to be less gentle than it was 15 years ago. People less willing to debate and listen and change their minds if presented with valid reasons to do so.

Maybe it's just our society bubble.

But it's what I see. People are more aggressive driving, no patience, they are more important than everyone else. It's everywhere. Not everyone all the time but a noticed increase in I don't know what but a "me first" attitude I guess.

It's depressing.

Males are not toxic. Toxic masculinity is about cultural and social stereotypes and norms, pressures, that are toxic both to males and females.

In New Zealand, with one of the highest suicide rates amongst young males - real men don't cry, you just got to harden the fuck up, you don't take shit from anybody. . . that's toxic. There's a film, 'Once Were Warriors' about gang culture, and toxic masculinity, and the effects on both men and women. It's iconic, and I'll never watch it in its entirety, because it's entirely too real.

But this is what I mean I don't want our males to contribute to other males by thinking they need to be "harden the fuck up" "don't take no shit".

Society in the UK is swinging back this way. And is it because Instagram promises lives full of fast cars and private jets and if you don't have that it's someone else's fault? Or you cling to the tiny bit of power and control to make you feel more man?

Toxic masculinity is most damaging to men. It makes them think they need to behave in a certain way. Just teach him right from wrong. Noone should be subject to DV, physical or emotional. Everyone should be treated with respect and care and all have the right to their boundaries respected and no meaning no. Just because men are most often the perpetrators it doesn't do anyone any good to view all men as toxic.. a self fulfilling prophecy if ever there was one.

I think you're doing the exact right thing, discussing and exploring issues and concepts, and helping them form their own beliefs as to what 'being a real man' is.

Helping them look at thing such as porn, and messages within social media, and their peer groups, with hard eyes.

I find this interesting because I have worked with a lot of teenage boys. Currently with a group who have autism. I try and educate them as much as possible about feminism, encourage them to talk about emotions (there was a study where they found girls generally have more words to describe emotions than boys so have done some sessions on emotional vocabulary) I find giving stats is useful, as you say about domestic violence for example. Recently we discussed what's happening in Afghanistan and why its scary for girls and women. I would implore all parents to discuss porn in depth with their teenage children, because the sex education I've seen in schools is pathetic in this area. I wish I was allowed to deliver it. Porn will have a huge impact on their lives and I think it's important they have adults they trust not to be embarrassed to discuss it with. One example that worries me is the viewing of child abuse online by teenagers. To my knowledge this is not addressed in schools but covered by a blanket consent video/talk. They need to know its illegal. Unfortunately the way lots of teenagers experiment/push boundaries sexually now is through the Internet, and it's still a bit of a wild west. Also, this might sound glib but I genuinely believe that setting an example of being outspoken about the issues you mention and being a good role model is the most beneficial thing you can do. It empowers them to make the same choices in calling out others, and by behaving as a human equal to men, you are showing them that women and men are equal.

I'm not sure if I would frame this as 'toxic masculinity'. It risks shaming your son. Shaming has a useful role in society as an useful inhibitor of unwanted or problematic behaviour, but shame can also have a nasty backlash. It's a difficult thing to get right, because there are plenty of unpleasant male populations on the internet that are very ready to capitalise on men who feel shamed.

Some people have spoken about talking about problems, and the issues it causes men when they don't talk about their problems. This is fair enough, but different people have different ways of coping, and talking about them doesn't always help everyone. The only thing you can do is encourage them to have a sufficient support network they can talk to, if they need to or want to.

I things have changed from 15 years ago, because I remember how youth culture was then. Youth culture is a lot angrier now (which is totally understandable), but with that has some an intolerance which is very, very similar to the very bigots those young people rally against. A self-righteousness and mostly unearnt moral superiority complex.

I'm tired of this 'white male' thing that comes out of people's mouths, often unthinkingly. They parrot it because they've heard it so many times from other people, and it sounds good, like something that good, ethical left-wing people like them would say.

Sometimes it's relevant, sometimes it isn't. Whenever people start going on about 'white males' with regards to women in particular, I would urge them to consider examining the situation further, to ask themselves - would that situation have any chance of being different or better if the man/men in question were not white? How are women treated in other countries where the population isn't white? Is it unanimously good? I don't see the evidence that it is. Not being white doesn't seem to change a lot of men's unsavoury attitude towards women, that's for sure, and that's why it's a totally irrelevant thing to say when talking about women, unless we're talking about issues that are very specific to white populations.

The only thing you can do is make sure you have some sort of control of internet usage when he's at home, at least. I'm sure he'll see all sorts of shit at school, but you can at least lessen to flow of that shit when he's at home with you. He should not have unlimited, unsupervised access to the internet, especially now with amount of fucked up content that's out there, and especially that he's still very young. I have no idea if he has this or not, but too many parents I feel give their kids unlimited access, which I think is pretty irresponsible.