Explaining "toxic masculinity" to male children coming of age

[frozendaisy]

Unfortunately many of us, I would say all actually to one degree or another, come across toxic masculinity in all aspects of life.

Our 13 yr old and I got chatting about respect, he firmly believes rightly that respect is earnt, then there was a set-to at school between a boy and a girl (year 8) and it talk progressed about equality and "well it's just the same if a boy hits a girl" to which I counteracted that at the moment some girls might be stronger than boys but as you fully develop in general males are stronger than females and then gave him stats on domestic abuse/violence and cohesion as best I could.

But these conversations are going to continue and get more complicated (really looking forward to the porn expectation choking/anal ones.........assuming his dad will cover that please dear god for the love of christ).

So what needs to most definitely NOT be left out no matter how difficult the conversation.

I get into a fair bit of bother calling out sexism, racism, intimidation in our local. I still do it I don't think it should be left unchallenged.

But moulding young minds. It's a minefield.

If anyone has anything to add to contribute to help us not only rear lovely young men (fingers crossed) but men who will call out their peers if need be. That's what I think the toxic masculinity world could do with a bit more of.

My observation is that you believe respect is earned.
Respect is due to everyone unconditionally. You may want to think about putting that first.

Totally agree @Zeal

Maybe it's just our society bubble.

Maybe it is, as it isn't what I see.

RE porn: How it promotes the commodification of womens bodies, most of whom are drawn into porn via abuse. That being paid a very small amount of money for doing porn is not consent and that some (fucking awful) rape "porn" on mainstream porn sites are actual real life rapes.

Basically porn is awful, there is no such thing as ethical porn, and (IMO) the majority of women in porn are essentially being raped for entertainment because they actually don't want to be having awful degrading sex, they have to because they feel they have no other choice.

Working in porn is also very damaging to the men who do it but my focus is more on womens issues but it might be worthwhile looking at it from that perspective since you have sons.

I'm very sex and kink positive but extremely anti porn.

I would bring up girls and boys the same. They need to know the same stuff - but they may have different points of view (eg it is more likely that the boy will be bigger and stronger than the girl - but I have no idea, she could end up being a martial arts champion and he could have a health condition). Either way, it’s not ok to use violence in any scenario (except if you are a trained police officer or there is no alternative to run away).

He watched the olympics and we talked about how men and women were in different events because their bodies are different. The women who get to the Olympics will probably be better than 85%-90% of men in the world but unlikely the top few. He came to the conclusion himself that having different numbers of men and women on a rugby team would be unfair based on this.

When he is at the right age I will be talking to him about porn in addition to DH as I went out with someone who watched it and I want him to understand my perspective as a woman.

Personally I find the phrases toxic masculinity and white privilege grating (I am from an ethnic minority). But I will be trying show my kids that other people experience challenges that they do not and that we should try and be open minded rather than making assumptions (which can be due to bias).

Both me and DH have non gender-stereotypical interests - so hopefully will help to combat some sexism.

Earth sight - completely get what you are saying about women in other countries. In my culture they have a sex imbalance problem due to historic (but recent) selective abortion, infanticide and abandonment of girls. Fortunately attitudes are improving - and some aspects are actually now further ‘ahead’ than in western countries (though they tend to have different problems).

Agree that you need to discuss with him how toxic masculinity also impacts men.

To add to the excellent list a PP posted, I'd say expectations that men not show emotions can impact the depth and quality of male friendships- in particular men's abilities to provide emotional support to each other.

I think as well with the best will in the world teens don’t always listen to what teachers or parents have to say about things like sex for example. They can get ideas though from ‘acceptable’ (socially) media - so I’d let them watch programmes like Sex Education when you think they’re old enough as that shows young adults dealing with lots of sex issues. My son watches it, not with me in the room as he said it’s too awkward when the sex scenes are happening, but he’ll often then come and tell me about a plot line and we’ll discuss it. At the least it portrays sex on a bit more of a realistic way than porn does.

We also discuss his friends views - he has a classmate who is showing lots of toxic viewpoints (feminazis, women need to stop working etc) and we’ve had long discussions about why his classmate might have developed these views. I think it can help to bring things to their experience with peers and from media - so then it becomes about a general discussion, not as ‘serious’ as showing them stats and talking theoretically with them.

Yes @Zeal the ‘respect is earned’ thing is weird.

I respect people, treat them kindly and show courtesy to them, their job, lifestyle, goals etc as standard. No one has to earn that from me……

I hope we are just defining the word ‘respect’ differently!

If not, it’s alarming that some people think that being respectful of other human beings must be “earned”…. 😳

I think the thing with respect is that everyone should be listened to, not fear violence, be treated politely. However usually my respect for someone plummets when they demand I ‘respect’ them (ie follow whatever they are demanding). If you want me to do something, persuade and reason with me about why; and acknowledge that I still may not if I disagree. Be a trusted person where I would seek out your opinion (earning my respect) - don’t stamp your foot for it.

There are adults I know who are thugs (convicted baby mumma beater for example) in our village who will happily beat up random strangers on the road if they think that person has "disrespected" their pavement space.

This is the type of "you owe me respect" because I am a big tough happy to pummel you man, I am concerned about.

Not everyday, normal respect, where you don't slam doors in people's faces.

Some people think they are entitled to respect above and beyond general good manners for reasons known only to them. It's that perceived entitlement that's concerning.

And yes our children's access online at home is quite restricted in terms of content, our wi-fi doesn't allow porn for example they have a small amount of data on their phones and we have explained to eldest, youngster soon, that they are not to send photos of their privates to anyone, if only for the reason once you send a photo or message it can be forwarded to many, assume it's not private basically. And also if you think a message contains graphic/sexual content, don't open it, you bring it to us.

Yeah we probably need to go a bit deeper into the nitty gritty of porn, unrealistic sexual expectations, consent.......

How is your household run? I believe what you do trumps what you say.

He's 13. He's likely already seen porn.

As for photos, he also should not be asking girls for photos or making sexual comments to them.

Has he watched the tea consent video?

Would he shut other boys down for being racist, sexist, degrading towards others or just go along with it?

@frozendaisy

And yes our children's access online at home is quite restricted in terms of content, our wi-fi doesn't allow porn for example they have a small amount of data on their phones and we have explained to eldest, youngster soon, that they are not to send photos of their privates to anyone, if only for the reason once you send a photo or message it can be forwarded to many, assume it's not private basically. And also if you think a message contains graphic/sexual content, don't open it, you bring it to us.

Yeah we probably need to go a bit deeper into the nitty gritty of porn, unrealistic sexual expectations, consent.......

Do you they have access to Tumblr? It's tried to crack down on porn in the last few years but there's still a lot of porn on there, and a lot of adults which set up accounts to express their fetish/sexual interests.

I don't know which book this page is an excerpt from but it neatly sums up why viewing porn as a youngster is not a good idea and probably not too cringe or graphic for a 12/13 year old to read.

My DSs don’t watch porn. And yes I do know that for sure. It’s hard to describe how open we are about such topics but the only thing I can say is I’m a SP and it helps create a very close relationship

We’ve talked about porn from a very young age, from both a feminist perspective and from a male perspective. I don’t think the feminist perspective meant anything to them tbh and what did was other men talking about it. How it ruins relationships, makes you incapable of having normal relationships and how it’s just exploiting your natural dopamine circuits which feels pretty grim for them. Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan were good for reinforcing this.

DS1 is at uni now and people literally can’t believe he doesn’t watch porn. They don’t believe him.

I think this more falls under toxic femininity but is still a patriarchal issue - but another conversation worthwhile IMHO.

Take them to a cosmetics place - supermarket isle, section in superdrug e.t.c. Show them the pictures used to advertise cosmetics to women, the price of cosmetics, the language used "you deserve it" "feel better" "look younger" - that kind of thing. Get them to examine the price of the various items and remind them that women are already disadvantaged due expected lower life income and then there is all this junk to buy. That make-up per kilo has at times been more expensive than gold per kilo.

That women are not stupid or foolish to fall for the crap that is sold - but that it is constant pressure not just from adverts but from social media, films, tv, billboards e.t.c. is hard to not be influenced by them.

That surgery is now pushed on women (from botox, boob 'enhancements' to butt lifts) and this pressure is often reinforced by other women "oh you must sort out your eyebrows".

Ask them to think about what it must be like to not even be able to trust your eyebrows are just fine but need frequent attention and hairs need to be pulled out by the root.

That they need to slap various creams and potions on their face every day due to fear of age that will happen regardless of whatever they do.

That they need to cut & colour their hair and monitor it's growth or be told they are looking tired and washed out.

I did this with my male kids when they were around 10 - it honestly blew their mind. They had been told about toxic masculinity - but how women reinforce oppression of other women via the fashion and cosmetic industry was almost unfathomable... right up until a woman (guess around 50) came up and agreed with me holding out some products she was buying saying she couldn't believe the crap she picks up to 'fight' the changes to her appearance.

Women have higher life expectancy and I and very many women don't wear make up or get plastic surgery. I'm sorry but women need to take some responsibility for resisting the peer pressure which is often from other women.

@JeSuisPrest

I don't know which book this page is an excerpt from but it neatly sums up why viewing porn as a youngster is not a good idea and probably not too cringe or graphic for a 12/13 year old to read.

Very helpful although I think he would die in a ditch if I handed it over!

@RantyAunty

How is your household run? I believe what you do trumps what you say.

He's 13. He's likely already seen porn.

As for photos, he also should not be asking girls for photos or making sexual comments to them.

Has he watched the tea consent video?

Would he shut other boys down for being racist, sexist, degrading towards others or just go along with it?

His dad is a tech wizard (it's his job) I would very much doubt either of them have seen porn via home online. Perhaps at school, big perhaps.

If they want to connect to any website there is a parent ping on our phones and our wi-fi is so under18 I have to use my mobile data to order a box of wine (under the no alcohol department).

There is very little you can be certain of in life but there is no way he has asked or sent "nudes" no chance, he's quite an innocent, not streetwise 13.

Down the cosmetics aisle we go.

I also have a frienc whose younger brother aged 24 ended up in A&E with a heart attack due to steroid use at the gym.

There are male gym bunny pressures which are growing. It's depressing. I know parents of girls have had to fight this for years and instead of embracing natural beauty of us all it seems the influence has been to make the boys think without an 8-pack (which can only be got with steroid use apparently....) you are not insta-snap worthy.

You need to talk to him about the media both traditional and social media.

Boys and men can be led down many different extremist rabbit holes by social media. They can also have mental and physical health problems e.g. body dysmorphia caused by things they see on social media. Social media is fed by and fed into by mainstream media.

For example every time there is a story on the mainstream news he's interested in make him aware of the biases the outlet is known to have and get him to question it.

If he sees an advert he's interested in talk to him about why it grabs his attention.

Basically you want to get him to think and question things as many -isms and harmful things are not immediately obvious.

You also want him to question the sources of things regardless of what they are and get him to start looking to see how primary sources are used selectively.

You are trying to teach him not to trust everything he sees in the media, both social and mainstream, without thinking whether they are a reliable source.

@frozendaisy kind of a cross post.

Boys see using steroids to get big on social media and it's enforced by going to particular gyms and being involved in certain sports.

Thanks @RedMarauder been showing them articles about same stories from gutter press v broadsheets, how "could" "should" in headlines can exempt some awful articles from libel courts.

The "question your source" "don't believe anything on the internet" philosophy has been going on a while now. We walked them up Fleet Street to Royal Courts of Justice this summer, with some brilliant chats of history, the press, justice. Yeah that was a good day.

[quote RedMarauder]@frozendaisy kind of a cross post.

Boys see using steroids to get big on social media and it's enforced by going to particular gyms and being involved in certain sports.[/quote]
We call it "triangle neck"...........

I've just sent this website to my 14yr old after we were chatting about how crap the sex ed is in schools, bish.uk

We were in the car which is always where we have our best chats!
I just said 'I've found a really good website that covers so many things that the crappy sex ed at school doesn't cover. Which is most things. It covers the usual sex talk stuff but so much more too. I'm working my way through it but have a look at it and let me know if you find anything interesting'.

@AhCheeses

I've just sent this website to my 14yr old after we were chatting about how crap the sex ed is in schools, bish.uk

We were in the car which is always where we have our best chats!
I just said 'I've found a really good website that covers so many things that the crappy sex ed at school doesn't cover. Which is most things. It covers the usual sex talk stuff but so much more too. I'm working my way through it but have a look at it and let me know if you find anything interesting'.

Arse. It's actually https://www.bishuk.com/