Explaining "toxic masculinity" to male children coming of age

[frozendaisy]

Unfortunately many of us, I would say all actually to one degree or another, come across toxic masculinity in all aspects of life.

Our 13 yr old and I got chatting about respect, he firmly believes rightly that respect is earnt, then there was a set-to at school between a boy and a girl (year 8) and it talk progressed about equality and "well it's just the same if a boy hits a girl" to which I counteracted that at the moment some girls might be stronger than boys but as you fully develop in general males are stronger than females and then gave him stats on domestic abuse/violence and cohesion as best I could.

But these conversations are going to continue and get more complicated (really looking forward to the porn expectation choking/anal ones.........assuming his dad will cover that please dear god for the love of christ).

So what needs to most definitely NOT be left out no matter how difficult the conversation.

I get into a fair bit of bother calling out sexism, racism, intimidation in our local. I still do it I don't think it should be left unchallenged.

But moulding young minds. It's a minefield.

If anyone has anything to add to contribute to help us not only rear lovely young men (fingers crossed) but men who will call out their peers if need be. That's what I think the toxic masculinity world could do with a bit more of.

My two are older teens.
I’ve talked to them about all the things you mentioned. I struggled because most of the stuff I mentioned is just inconceivable to them.

So I’ll talk about men whistling at young girls, making comments on their body and they reject it happens ‘because it’s disgusting and surely no 30+yo would show an interest for a 14yo’.
Or I can cite statistics about 95% of girls who have been sexually assaulted/ wouldn’t go running on their own etc… and you can see it’s like I’m talking about another planet. Let alone anal/chocking etc ….

It’s hard…..

Thanks @AhCheeses looks like homework for next week.

Oh yes the conversations will not be easy listening but we are determined they have to happen.

If, when, the school ground porn passing around happens we would prefer that they understand that porn, especially nowadays, is utter poison, who thought we would get to the day you are almost wishing "Debbie Does Dallas" was the worse you needed to get through!

There was a weekend article about teenagers, this was a group in Hackney, and the 16 yr old girls knew anal was to be expected to be accepted and protected by the males in that group. I know this is the extreme of this age group, at least I assume it is, but these societal ideas filter out, so who knows what ours will expect/think is acceptable at 16. Hence this post to try and cover as many angles as need be. And then......fingers crossed........

Mateypotatey, do the parents know your teaching this ?

It’s not extreme @frozendaisy.
Most young women and older teens expect that. Just like they expect you have to be bare down below. And a hell of other things.

My two are boys. So I’ve concentrated on telling them they should never consider any practice as ‘normal’ and they should get consent for each of them. Yep that raised eye brows too.

You can be a good and guiding parent without going into term “toxic masculinity”. Actually I really hate that term.

You could also advise the about the really nasty women out there, though there’s no real term for it (the American term “basic Bitches” comes close, anyone?).

I am sure you mean well OP, but it all smacks of a repressive-virtue signalling culture to me.

PS. I am quite anti-porn as it happens. But I don’t esp associate that with “masculinity”. It’s bad for BOTH sexes, men included. You don’t have to describe men as “toxic” to make this point.

Porn, ultimately, is anti-Romantic.

Romantic as in strong spirit, individual courage. (not the Hallmark soppy sentimentality).

So, ultimately, it is demeaning for the individual man or woman in reality.

(But equally I would try not to “shame” a young person; as this can backfire).

Just advising them to stick to their strong sense of self and integrity.

I disagree that there isn't toxic masculinity, not that there isn't bitchy feminity, but I have sons on the cusp of manhood so can only concentrate my parenting in that area.

I think making our sons aware of toxic people, their own gender and all the other genders, is important because leering men don't care if they make women uncomfortable, but they might think twice if their peers aren't impressed.

We cross paths with awful males more often than we should. It's depressing. These males don't like females but as they aren't homosexual they need them to have sex. Why the women accept this is a whole other argument. But they do, so it "works". It a load of depressing bollocks.

None of this enquiry is about shame. It's about giving our very impressionable young men to be children the confidence, knowledge, reasons, arguments and philosophy to be able to stand for good and use their male strength in positive ways not become a grunt, because that is not the future any of us in this household has in mind.

I think it has to be two-pronged.

Firstly and most importantly, young men need to see positive role-modelling from men in their lives. I'm lucky to have a husband who is an extremely positive role-model to our children. They see every day what an equitable and good relationship is. They see their father contribute the same domestically as I do. They see their father absolutely support me (and me him), treat me as nothing but an equal. If there's not a father around (or a shitty one), it's vital for both young men and women to see successful and balanced relationships or to have people in their lives who can show them how to be a good man (or what a good man looks like). If I was a single parent I'd make sure that there were people or organisations in my children's lives that would fulfil this role in the absence of a father.

Additionally, I think it's crucially important to be very honest and frank with your children from the get-go. It's maybe too late to have the 'porn chat' when they're in their teens. I've always been very open about speaking to my children from a young age about matters of sex and sexuality, so there's no discomfort or embarrassment now they are teens, around any manner of discussion.

I had the first porn chat with them as they were about to start secondary, because I knew if I didn't, some other bugger would! Consequently, we have very open communication, they really aren't embarrassed about speaking to me as their mother about anything really.

So, honesty, openness, no shame, embarrassment or 'forbidden' topics, and show, don't tell!