Mum’s Attitude to sex makes my blood boil!

[Ceriane]

This may be a generational thing, and maybe I’m overreacting. My brother and his partner recently split up and it has come to light that my brother has cheated on her on several occasions with a number of women and has been regularly visiting sleazy websites. This is bad enough but when I went to see my mum today and we were talking about it, her reaction was to blame his partner, that it means he is obviously not getting it at home and so is clearly her fault. She also blames her for the fact that he has been aggressive and violent towards her on occasions saying that, she should have known when to stop goading him about the cheating. I would have brushed this off as this isn’t really anything to do with me, but when I got home I started thinking about it again as I remembered conversations she had with me as a teenager which left me with really confusing boundaries when it came to relationships and sex in my late teens and early twenties, I ended up in a really coercive relationship when I was younger and then after that had a long period of being single as I developed a real fear/aversion to men and sexual situations for a long time after that. I had been in a much healthier place mentally over the last few years but her comments just left me feeling sick. Anyone else experience similar things with their parents? Is it a generational thing?

I remember, she would say things like once you have slept with someone you can’t just pick and choose when you have sex, men have needs and will want it a lot more than you will. She also blames the woman if a man is violent “men have their limits as to how much they can take from a woman”. When I didn’t agree with her she got really angry with me and seemed to want to make me agree with her.

Lol. A sore point is it?

@NotTheGreatGatsy

No fortunately I’ve not had to deal with that situation before it’s just a very easy observation when reading various threads on here. You may have just proved my point.

Of course thankfully not everyone thinks that way but there are a few which means it’s not always a generation thing.

It really isn’t an age or generation thing.

Sadly many young women now are still giving up their independence, careers, mental health, with men who are disrespectful or abusive. MN Central, any day of the week.

Many young women are in bad relationships and say they are ‘scared’ to live alone or be without a man (see above)

I am in my 60s and see MN and Facebook etc full of the ill informed, ill educated and nasty views ascribed to 60 yo women by a Pp.

Lack of support for women’s fulfilment in education, work and family is a problem that has existed since whenever and still exists. Just as the OP’s mother’s generation thought they had it sorted (‘women’s lib’, the equal pay and sex discrimination laws etc) along comes porn, the internet etc to let women know exactly how they should look and behave and what men should expect).

It’s a constant process of breaking the cycle and being ready for the next one.

The OP’s brother is not breaking the cycle, the OP is taking a critical view and seeking to free herself.

I mean I see the ‘nasty’ views coming equally from young women. And men of course but we are talking about women as in the OP’s mother.

I would call her out EVERY.SINGLE.TIME.

@Chocaholic9. I do too— but most ones I know are older and very comfortably off . I’m talking about the ones spouting populist racist flag waving nonsense and actually not being able to actually have a thought out discussion at all , because their views were essentially their husbands views. I have no problem if someone intelligent has an opposing view and can actually discuss the issues, I have a big issue if someone who has no business experience at all suddenly starts talking like they are chairman of ICI - same applies with covid and people suddenly becoming ‘experts ‘ on viruses and epidemiology when they have no medical or public health background at all.

@Esspee

I would call her out EVERY.SINGLE.TIME.

That's asking a lot of energy and friction.

I have to say, I see it younger women too. Women in their 20s who want nothing more than to be married, have a baby and become sahms. Giving up everything they have worked and studied for as well as their financial independence.

A lot of the.have bought into an user regressive, stereotyped vision of what a 'woman' is and I really don't understand it.

My daughter is 15. She is baffled by some of her peers. But I suspect she will also turn at some point when she sees what boys and men now expect of her.

So bloody depressing.

Thank You all so much! My mum is in her late 60s and has only ever been with my dad, since she was a teenager, no abuse that I know of. I try to call her out on her views as much as possible but in recent years have realised it’s easier to agree to disagree. Her views are not my views and are not the way I wish to live my life. I have friends who also have the “any man is better than no man” mentality one of which doesn’t understand why you can’t have a relationship with someone if you are not attracted to them. I just don’t listen to these people anymore, but sometimes feel with certain friends and family members like I’m the only feminist in the village. It’s utterly depressing and sad, but I’m glad to be one of the people who is breaking the sad cycle that has been prevalent in society in the past and will only have healthy loving relationships or walk away!!!!

@Ceriane

Thank You all so much! My mum is in her late 60s and has only ever been with my dad, since she was a teenager, no abuse that I know of. I try to call her out on her views as much as possible but in recent years have realised it’s easier to agree to disagree. Her views are not my views and are not the way I wish to live my life. I have friends who also have the “any man is better than no man” mentality one of which doesn’t understand why you can’t have a relationship with someone if you are not attracted to them. I just don’t listen to these people anymore, but sometimes feel with certain friends and family members like I’m the only feminist in the village. It’s utterly depressing and sad, but I’m glad to be one of the people who is breaking the sad cycle that has been prevalent in society in the past and will only have healthy loving relationships or walk away!!!!

Good for you lovely! I often get the same from family coming out with things like, "Oh stop your feminist ranting, women have got loads of rights nowadays". Bugger off. Frankly, if you're not angry, you're not paying attention, that's my response. I'm currently pregnant with my what will be my first child and I'm adamant that they will not grow up with skewed view of sex/relationships that I was brought up with xx

I remember my mum and her friends laughing at me when I was 15 and announced I wasn't going to get married or have children because I couldn't see what was in it for women. All I heard on TV through the 80s was misogyny and my parents laughing at the jokes etc.

I'd never heard of feminism and ended up toeing the line because eventually I thought I was wrong and the only girl who thought like me

My Mum comes out with stuff like this. She’s in her seventies and was a modern feminist when she was younger but now she thinks woman have ‘gone too far’. She thinks it’s women’s fault that they are raped because they are so drunk!. Women don’t act respectably! I used to fight with her all the time about these comments but it doesn’t change how she thinks. now I just stop listening, get up, walk away and do something else. She see’s I’m not listening and stops the conversation but it doesn’t change her thinking, she just see’s me as one of those raging feminists! But she does now understand that if she wants a relationship with me she better keep those views to herself.

This thread has made me think a lot.
My mum is a bit like this, not so much with sex but that women had their place and should know it.
She used to proudly announce to her friends that she had my fathers tea ready on the table at 6pm sharp every night ...she's still like this after 40 years of marriage.
My MIL on the other hand is a raging feminist, so much so that she can't and won't take ANYTHING from a man and at the first sign of anything remotely resembling something she doesn't agree with she dumps them. I know who is happier....

My mother believes men should not be interrupted and that women should keep their opinions to themselves around men. I have lost count of the times she has told me to be quiet when I contribute to a discussion with my OH. It makes my blood boil. She also believes the man is the 'head of the household' and the wife should take her lead from him.

It's partly a societal hangover. In each generation the general trend is to more liberated views on women's rights but there will always be a mix of views within the trend. In some cases it was probably a defense mechanism I.e submission and the illusion of choice.

This thread was actually much more upsetting to me than I expected. I had incredibly painful sex (vaginismus sufferer at the time) in my twenties with my abusive ex. After sex I would be deliriously happy that I had endured it because it was my duty and my purpose as a girlfriend. If I hadn't had that positive feeling afterwards I would have been utterly consumed by the pain of it all. I actually feel now like I let myself down and really ashamed of myself for that. I know it's what I had to do to survive but I still feel really broken about it. I sometimes think it would be easier if I still believed I had a duty to him and that there was some good in an awful situation but now it's just feels awful.

Colourmeclear that’s awful, really upsetting and I’m so sorry you went through that. 💐

My mil has made that exact comment to me. It’s always the woman’s fault. Women are only after the mans money and our sole purpose in life is to serve the man in whatever capacity he wants. She’s in her 80’s

ColourMeClear I'm so sorry to hear that but I hope that you can find a way to be kind to yourself. You didn't let yourself down at all. Based on what? The fact that you didn't spring fully formed into the world knowing everything?

In fact, what you've done is grown and learnt more about what your values are and how you expect and deserve to be treated, despite the ideas you picked up growing up about 'a woman's role'. Living life and learning from it isn't something to be ashamed of, it's a reason to be proud of yourself. Moreover, it makes it more likely you'd be able to protect yourself and others from a similar experience again. Not that you'd ever wish to go through these things in order to obtain the silver linings but, since we often have to, that's a huge positive to take away from a shitty situation right there.

What you've also done is broken out of a cycle you were clearly introduced to and ensured that you won't end up like the mothers and some of the women being described in this thread despite the template you were given. Well fucking done, I say. That's an incredibly hard thing to do. I hope you say it to yourself too.

@Colourmeclear

It's partly a societal hangover. In each generation the general trend is to more liberated views on women's rights but there will always be a mix of views within the trend. In some cases it was probably a defense mechanism I.e submission and the illusion of choice.

This thread was actually much more upsetting to me than I expected. I had incredibly painful sex (vaginismus sufferer at the time) in my twenties with my abusive ex. After sex I would be deliriously happy that I had endured it because it was my duty and my purpose as a girlfriend. If I hadn't had that positive feeling afterwards I would have been utterly consumed by the pain of it all. I actually feel now like I let myself down and really ashamed of myself for that. I know it's what I had to do to survive but I still feel really broken about it. I sometimes think it would be easier if I still believed I had a duty to him and that there was some good in an awful situation but now it's just feels awful.

That is a really interesting perspective, thank you for sharing that. I am so sorry for what you have been through.

If your mum had a reasonable marriage she may assume that’s because she was a ‘good wife’ and not realise how dehumanising abuse can be. I never realised you can’t always make a child go to school - till I had one 🙈!
Her views are what I would call old fashioned and have perhaps a generational influence - my 88 year old mum would be appalled at them though, as my nearly 90 year old father would have been - my mum despairs about one of her carer’s having no help at home from her partner. My first mil though, 10 years younger than my mum, gave me advice on how to make sure her son had his ‘needs’ met - I will never forget that conversation at age 23 - ever - I was mortified then though I laugh at it now. My mum and mil were from different backgrounds so maybe that’s part of the difference. I’m so disappointed when women my own age - mid 50s - are of this mind - and just despair when younger ones perpetuate it. There’s a lot feeding in - some age, some socio economic, some personal, ongoing narratives that aren’t easily altered. My mum does have some very different views to me in other areas, her age and needs now, mean I let it go but it can be very hard to feel so inauthentic- you can’t change her but perhaps just quietly stick by your own views, avoid talking about them or have low contact.

Thank You. I tend to just see it as she has her views, but that doesn’t have to be how I live my life. I wish I knew what I know now 15 years ago when I genuinely thought that everyone but me thought this and I made myself so miserable and screwed up and my mental health really did suffer.

Yep I think it's generational. My dads favourite saying was that A man leaves his wife if she's not fulfilling her marital obligations but a woman leaves her husband if she's a slut!!

Not spoken to him for 20 years after leaving my husband!

@NotTheGreatGatsy
@Ceriane
@NoNoThankYou

Thank you all for your kind words, especially NoNoThankYou. I can't put into words how moved I was by my response.

I've considered going to a support group or getting specialist support but I can't get beyond how happy I felt, well more relieved because it would stop some of the abuse for a while. I feel like I'm completely alone and no-one can relate. Did I consent? probably, did it hurt like hell? Yes. I don't think there's space for hugely damaging consensual sex but maybe it wasn't consensual because of the abuse...but I was happy to get through it....it's just all too complicated.

I've changed immeasurably and never have sex I don't want (my current partner is 100% on board with this). The problem with telling people that they should have sex they don't want for the sake of the relationship is that it's internalised by those in healthy relationships and those in abusive relationships and there's no guarantee that the mental and physical consequences won't be huge in either case. It's not worth the risk.

P.s sorry for derailing the thread.

*your response. God I'm a mess today!

Colourmeclear. I’m so glad that things are so much better for you now and that you are now in a good relationship with someone who cares about you as a person, not just what he can get for you. The whole issue around this is hugely complicated and I practically had a nervous breakdown trying to make sense of it in my mid twenties (I too had a medical condition that caused problems with sex and a really non understanding partner at the time). It put me off relationships for a long time after that.

It certainly isn't a generational thing. In fact I think that women in their forties, fifties and older have clearer boundaries and more confidence about requiring men to respect then than younger women, who hav come of age in the horrifyingly porn-drenched era of the internet.

By the way, I'm not sure if this has already been corrected on the thread but it wasn't 2003 that finally saw the offence of marital rape being recognised; it was 1991, when it was established as the result of a particular legal case in which a husbandwas found guilty of rape.

2003 just gave extra security by formalising the offence in the staute books I think.