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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Mum’s Attitude to sex makes my blood boil!

103 replies

Ceriane · 24/08/2021 22:47

This may be a generational thing, and maybe I’m overreacting. My brother and his partner recently split up and it has come to light that my brother has cheated on her on several occasions with a number of women and has been regularly visiting sleazy websites. This is bad enough but when I went to see my mum today and we were talking about it, her reaction was to blame his partner, that it means he is obviously not getting it at home and so is clearly her fault. She also blames her for the fact that he has been aggressive and violent towards her on occasions saying that, she should have known when to stop goading him about the cheating. I would have brushed this off as this isn’t really anything to do with me, but when I got home I started thinking about it again as I remembered conversations she had with me as a teenager which left me with really confusing boundaries when it came to relationships and sex in my late teens and early twenties, I ended up in a really coercive relationship when I was younger and then after that had a long period of being single as I developed a real fear/aversion to men and sexual situations for a long time after that. I had been in a much healthier place mentally over the last few years but her comments just left me feeling sick. Anyone else experience similar things with their parents? Is it a generational thing?

I remember, she would say things like once you have slept with someone you can’t just pick and choose when you have sex, men have needs and will want it a lot more than you will. She also blames the woman if a man is violent “men have their limits as to how much they can take from a woman”. When I didn’t agree with her she got really angry with me and seemed to want to make me agree with her.

OP posts:
tickledtiger · 25/08/2021 07:47

@Northernparent68

Perhaps you should n’t get so involved in your brothers life.
That’s not the problem here.

Op your mother did you both a disservice bringing you up with ideas like that. I don’t think it’s a generational thing.

Pipsquiggle · 25/08/2021 08:02

Where do you think your DB got it from? - that it was ok to treat women like this?

You need to tell your DM how out of order this is and make sure this kind of bullshit stops now and not get passed on to anyone else.

Mummyoflittledragon · 25/08/2021 08:09

@CiaoForNiao and @RagRugs Flowers

My mother has internalised misogyny in other ways. Having sex outside of marriage was only something a fallen woman would do. And in marriage? She gave me a brief talk about ‘making love’ as my vile older brother had been teasing me about it. Then told me she and my father didn’t do that kind of thing.

Sleeping around was always the female’s fault, so my losing my virginity mid teens (to a boy I was madly in love with) sealed my fate as a degenerate. Good old Victorian values and clearly not confusing at all to a 11/12yo girl.

She also did nothing when my brother used to call to me to come and see him. Always to ‘admire’ his erection and I didn’t dare ignore him. I was too scared of him. She did nothing when he called me vile and dehumanising sexual names and created an acronym, which he used as a matter of course and encouraged his friends to do the same. She didn’t think about my physical safety when she (father was usually at work) left me alone with him or with his mates. So much so they went abroad when I was ‘still a virgin’ and left me alone with him for a week. He had a house party during this time and I had to talk one his friends out of raping me. I never told her for my upset meant nothing. Had I done so, she’d have done nothing and waffled on about what had happened to her 40 years ago.

When I was 17 and by this time already the degenerate, my brother’s friend barged into my room when I was completely naked (he knew I’d just had a shower), and closed the door. I didn’t know how to react. I didn’t cover myself up or scream. I stayed naked I think because I wanted to stand up to him as an equal after all his and my brother’s dick wangling in my face, to get him out of my room with as little fuss as possible. I instinctively knew she would blame me for his being in my room so screams would have been futile. She probably wouldn’t have even bothered to come to my assistance.

I am NC with my brother for my physical safety. Many men use rape to destroy women, who they see as inferior prey. My brother didn’t do this but the physical, verbal and sexualised abuse I suffered at his hands was designed to destroy me all the same. The verbal and physical abuse didn’t stop into our 40s.

My mother on berating me for going nc with him, had a momentary intake of breath when I challenged her on the sexual stuff, then brushed it aside. Whatever happened to me was my fault. From beginning to end. I was physically abusive to him. Not the other way round.

My mother is of the generation, where many confused women were often other women are asking for it. Lots of internalised misogyny. She only feels complete when with a man and defers to men always whilst simultaneously talking down to them with snide asides. Complex.

Mummyoflittledragon · 25/08/2021 08:10

*Oops reading back through that I wasn’t 11/12 when I had sex. I mean when I found out about it!!

layladomino · 25/08/2021 08:16

No, not generational in so much as I'd put money on the majority of older women do not hold those views and would be as appalled by you. My DM in her 80s included.

And you see plenty of comments on these boards that show there are younger people with skewed ideas of how a relationship should be.

There may be an element of generational in that we are turning a corner in terms of equality and recognising many of the old beliefs and opinions (gender roles, LGBT, race etc) were just wrong, so there will have been more people in the past who believed such nonsense.

But no, most older people would not agree with your mother.

KidneyBeans · 25/08/2021 08:17

@Ceriane no it's not a generational thing.

My mum was abused by a boyfriend when she was younger (70s) now.

She and my dad raised me with very clear messaging that abuse should not be tolerated.

It's an ignorance thing.

RagRugs · 25/08/2021 08:31

Mummy Flowers for you too! That was awful.

My mother is of the generation, where many confused women were often other women are asking for it. Lots of internalised misogyny. She only feels complete when with a man and defers to men always whilst simultaneously talking down to them with snide asides. Complex.

Yes, this would describe my mother too.

My mother's views weren't learnt from her own experiences of men/sex or from her own mother (who was the opposite) but because she believed that there was nothing more shameful than being a single woman and that if women were not beautiful then it was our 'duty' to be completely subservient, submissive, docile and compliant in order for a man to concede to choose us.

I was night beautiful nor subservient, sumissive nor docile so i had no chance. My upbringing comprised of nothing but criticism that no man would ever want or love me for various reasons amd that I should seek to secure one as soon as I could regardless of absolutely anything.

As a result, I am unable to form loving relationships within and have spent most of my life single as a single parent.

My mother caused me more damage that any single other person I've ever encountered.

Purplewithred · 25/08/2021 09:11

I'd forgotten - when my friend was raped her father said she'd better not tell her boyfriend as he wouldn't want to be with her after another man had had her. 1977, she was 20, and she believed him.

I was horrified and so were my parents, she came to stay with me and I called her boyfriend who was lovely, supportive and horrified at her dad's view.

blessedbethechocolate · 25/08/2021 09:17

I don't think its generational my Nan who's in her 80s wouldn't say anything like that. My mum who's in her 50s might though. She told me to stay with my abusive ex because no one else would want me.

When I had my first child I found out her dad was cheating on my two weeks after giving birth. I kicked him out and his mum came round to "see if I was ok" when I told her why I'd kicked him out her response was "well he wouldn't have looked elsewhere if you hadn't denied him sex". When I pointed out I'd just given birth. She said "isn't it worth a bit of discomfort to keep your man happy?"

miltonj · 25/08/2021 09:20

It sounds like she has a bad experience of marriage/men/sex so desperately needs you to agree with her so that it justifies her experience. It may be hard for her to except that there are other healthy, mutual experiences of marriage and sex. Doesn't justify her projecting this onto you as a teen... she has a lot to answer for. And certainly doesn't justify her excusing her sons awful behaviour now.... we're more enlightened on this stuff than ever before, so has no excuse for her archaic beliefs.

Crikeyalmighty · 25/08/2021 09:22

I am late 50s but in the 70s I remember two types of women really well, educated ones who went to university or grammar schools and were very pro women’s rights or lesser educated ones whose opportunities were pretty limited in a lot of cases and basically put up with any old shit to keep the money coming in and a bloke in the house, they usually didn’t have any opinions either that didn’t align with the blokes. I think we are still seeing the remnanats of that today— I noticed it a lot in the Brexit vote- a lot of 60 and 70 something women on Facebook spouting complete nasty rubbish and clearly didn’t understand the complexities involved but if you looked at their page were always married to come sad sack in his football top (in his 60s) and huge belly who also was spouting simplistic rubbish. My personal belief is that most of these women are too frightened and ground down to actually feel they can now offer an opinion. It’s very sad OP and all you can do is just distance yourself from their views and say ‘we are going to have to agree to disagree mum’

Harlequin1088 · 25/08/2021 09:25

@SwimmingUnderwater That's really sad

fluffiphlox · 25/08/2021 09:27

Probably not generational. I’m 60 something and I hope I don’t think like that. If my mother was alive she wouldn’t have thought like that. I think it’s more about upbringing, social milieu, education and exposure to ‘proper thinking’.

Letthelightoflove · 25/08/2021 09:30

My mum is in her 70s and thinks like this. I do verbally disagree with her but don’t see the point in having an all out argument.

On another note, @NotTheGreatGatsy why did you quote the OPs post? Isn’t it a given that you’re responding the the OP, unless you quote someone else?

Chocaholic9 · 25/08/2021 09:38

Internalised misogyny. YANBU that it makes your blood boil.

Chocaholic9 · 25/08/2021 09:39

@Crikeyalmighty

I am late 50s but in the 70s I remember two types of women really well, educated ones who went to university or grammar schools and were very pro women’s rights or lesser educated ones whose opportunities were pretty limited in a lot of cases and basically put up with any old shit to keep the money coming in and a bloke in the house, they usually didn’t have any opinions either that didn’t align with the blokes. I think we are still seeing the remnanats of that today— I noticed it a lot in the Brexit vote- a lot of 60 and 70 something women on Facebook spouting complete nasty rubbish and clearly didn’t understand the complexities involved but if you looked at their page were always married to come sad sack in his football top (in his 60s) and huge belly who also was spouting simplistic rubbish. My personal belief is that most of these women are too frightened and ground down to actually feel they can now offer an opinion. It’s very sad OP and all you can do is just distance yourself from their views and say ‘we are going to have to agree to disagree mum’
I'm a Brexiter and I did not fit this stereotype. I also know plenty of educated women like me who were pro Brexit.
Wackadoo · 25/08/2021 09:45

@RagRugs

Mummy Flowers for you too! That was awful.

My mother is of the generation, where many confused women were often other women are asking for it. Lots of internalised misogyny. She only feels complete when with a man and defers to men always whilst simultaneously talking down to them with snide asides. Complex.

Yes, this would describe my mother too.

My mother's views weren't learnt from her own experiences of men/sex or from her own mother (who was the opposite) but because she believed that there was nothing more shameful than being a single woman and that if women were not beautiful then it was our 'duty' to be completely subservient, submissive, docile and compliant in order for a man to concede to choose us.

I was night beautiful nor subservient, sumissive nor docile so i had no chance. My upbringing comprised of nothing but criticism that no man would ever want or love me for various reasons amd that I should seek to secure one as soon as I could regardless of absolutely anything.

As a result, I am unable to form loving relationships within and have spent most of my life single as a single parent.

My mother caused me more damage that any single other person I've ever encountered.

This is depressingly familiar to me.
Hoppinggreen · 25/08/2021 09:47

@VictoriaBun

I would argue with your mother against all those beliefs . I disagree it's an age thing .
My Mum is 80 and doesn’t have such a shitty attitude so it’s not just an age thing
YanTanTethera123 · 25/08/2021 09:49

My parents would have been like this 😡, always the woman’s fault even with domestic violence.
My mother actually told my husband to give me a good hiding (obviously he didn’t) if I didn't ‘behave’! I couldn’t believe my ears when he told me, but that was her behaviour towards me all my life so I shouldn’t have been surprised I guess.
Hideously slewed attitudes.

chipsandgin · 25/08/2021 09:50

Not generational. Just fucked up totally this.

My parents and all of their friends & basically everyone I know in their 70’s/80’s would be horrified by her attitude. It’s incredibly toxic - she’s validating your brothers abhorrent behaviour (having taught it to him - but he’s an adult so can take responsibility for it anyway). Just awful - she is entirely wrong obviously.

It’s up to you as to how/if you fight or raise it with her OP, but definitely don’t excuse it. Maybe tell her it makes you sad that she is so misguided & thankfully she is in the minority - her generation has nothing to do with it.

She has a choice not to believe or spout that nonsense (& it’s great that you are in a better place having been told all that shit growing up, she should be ashamed of herself - sadly unlikely but don’t let it get to you, it’s her issue, not yours - you don’t have to carry it Flowers )

YanTanTethera123 · 25/08/2021 09:50

Ps I’m 67 and it definitely isn’t my attitude!

RagRugs · 25/08/2021 09:53

@Crikeyalmighty

I am late 50s but in the 70s I remember two types of women really well, educated ones who went to university or grammar schools and were very pro women’s rights or lesser educated ones whose opportunities were pretty limited in a lot of cases and basically put up with any old shit to keep the money coming in and a bloke in the house, they usually didn’t have any opinions either that didn’t align with the blokes. I think we are still seeing the remnanats of that today— I noticed it a lot in the Brexit vote- a lot of 60 and 70 something women on Facebook spouting complete nasty rubbish and clearly didn’t understand the complexities involved but if you looked at their page were always married to come sad sack in his football top (in his 60s) and huge belly who also was spouting simplistic rubbish. My personal belief is that most of these women are too frightened and ground down to actually feel they can now offer an opinion. It’s very sad OP and all you can do is just distance yourself from their views and say ‘we are going to have to agree to disagree mum’
This is an interesting view but my mother was one of those grammar school girls. She had so many opportunities in front of her but she didn't take them.

When I was at secondary school and choosing my GCSE options, she met with the head of year to tell them she didn't want me doing 10 GCSEs, A levels or going to university because a man wouldn't want a woman like that. She wanted them to make me take child care and typing because those would be more useful to me. They were subjects reserved at the time for the lowest academically achieving girls who, it was believed, could only hope to join a typing pool, get married and have children. Fortunately, the school told her it was my decision and I should be aiming for university.

She was furious.

I went on to get a first class degree and masters but she was always critical of me for it.

ShingleBeach · 25/08/2021 09:56

It sounds like a serious internalised sexism thing, rather than just sex. She has been fed the Kool Aid if patriarchy, or has for some other reason absorbed sexist restrictions and abuse.

Whether she directly influenced your horribly behaved brother or not is hard to say. Plenty of men brought up by women with healthy contemporary views still cheat and lie and sleaze. And perpetuate a male dominated market of porn and careless sex and general disrespect for women. A casual browse of MN tells us that.

I am sorry it affected you so badly OP. What you can change is your own reactions and responses. Counselling maybe to talk through your upbringing, or great self-help books.

In the end, your views and values are sound, and that will carry you forward.

Your brother and mother are wrong and destructive. Though your mother may have become that way due to abuse or other damage.

SmallDragonfly · 25/08/2021 09:56

My mother has this sort of thought process when it comes to sex and relationships. I left my exhusband 3 years ago as I was sick to death of his affairs, drinking and getting me so drunk on the weekends that I couldn't say no in the bedroom. When I told her I was thinking about leaving she told me its my wifely duties and I should put up with it. My youngest was about to start full time school and I was approaching 30, my ex didn't allow me to work so the thought of being at home waiting for him to come back and just shout at me and ignore the children until he drank and gave me all his attention. I couldn't hack it and would have rather died.
Over the years my mum has kept very quiet to her friends about my situation as what would people think of her if they knew her daughter walked away from a a long marriage (we were married for 14 years, he was 9 years older than me and we met when I was 16 and pregnant with my eldest, my mum almost forced me to get serious with him by telling me nobody would take on a woman who's had another man's child so I took her advice and we were married by the time I was 17) with a man who had a good income. But I had to for my own mental health.
3 years later I've met a good man and head over heels in love, we live together and hes taken on the roll of step dad so well, my ex gave up his share of custody with a weeks notice due to finding a new girlfriend who doesn't like kids, hes moved location now and won't tell the children where he is. My mum still defenes his decision to abandon his children. We are expecting a baby and couldn't be happier.

My mum brought up the topic of why I left my exhusband the other day and asked why I never came to her and my dad sooner for advice. When I mentioned what he used to do to me while he drank to much she instantly shut me down and told me she didn't need to hear about all that nonsense again I've learnt again to just keep quiet and not have that sort of relationship with her and espically learnt how now to teach my children if they have relationship problems in the future.

OhWhatFuckeryIsThisNow · 25/08/2021 09:59

Tell her it’s her fault that she produced such a poor excuse for a man, see if she thinks that.