Telling me I'm wrong

[Moomoot5]

Hi all. I suffer from a mental health condition that means I don't always see things rationally so can I have some advice please?

I recently blocked a friend of mine that I had known for a few years. We weren't best friends but we were good enough friends if that makes sense. Anyway, I don't want to go into why we fell out but it was my decision to end our friendship.

The issue is that my partner disagrees with my decision. He has accused me of blocking her for no reason and whenever the issue comes up he tells me she did nothing wrong and makes me feel bad for my decision. He knows why I blocked her but he says I'm talking nonsense and it's my MH that's making me see things this way etc.

We've just had a row about it again because I told him I felt like he always took other people's side over me and his response again was that I was talking nonsense, he just tells me I'm wrong every time.

Am I wrong in thinking that he should be supporting me? Ok, he may not agree with my decision and may think I've over reacted but surely if I felt strongly enough to block her, he should understand that and stand by me? At the very least he shouldn't be attacking me for it? Isn't that what partners do?

OP says she's a colleague of her DH, no mention of friendship.

I also think you might be better off on your own.

He's a twat.

Your partner's concern may be that, by overreacting, you are causing yourself harm. Cutting off your nose to spite your face. Losing friends you benefited more from having.

That would be very different from him using your perceived 'failings' in relationships with others, to be unkind to you about your relationship with him. That is, as 'evidence' that you are bad at relationships per se, or your judgement always poor.

@lottiegarbanzo

Your partner's concern may be that, by overreacting, you are causing yourself harm. Cutting off your nose to spite your face. Losing friends you benefited more from having.

That would be very different from him using your perceived 'failings' in relationships with others, to be unkind to you about your relationship with him. That is, as 'evidence' that you are bad at relationships per se, or your judgement always poor.

If he was coming from a caring place then why didn't he say "It may be that, by overreacting, you are causing yourself harm. Cutting off your nose to spite your face. Losing friends you benefited more from having", rather than """She did fuck all to you. She doesn’t know how to handle your MH. I don’t know even.""""?

Depends who is bringing it up – if you bring it up and ask for his opinion, or prompt him to comment within that conversation, then HNBU to give his honest opinion. I mean, it’s not U for him to think you didn’t need to cut her off.

However if he’s giving you a hard time about it and offering unsolicited opinions when you’re at peace with your decision, then HIBU – whether he agrees with your reasons or not, it’s ultimately your business who you choose as friends. The idea that he would bring that up unsolicited in relation to your MH issues would not be cool at all either.

If it’s the latter, could it be that your decision on this taps into a sore point of some sort in the wider relationship?

On the other side of it, is this something you feel he does a lot? Sticks his oar in and casts doubt on your ability to judge decisions correctly?

How are you feeling in yourself about your condition at the moment? Do you have someone other than him to talk to about the whole situation like a counsellor?

Having intense feelings about loyalty and betrayal in relationships could be related to your condition, it could be justified by their behaviour or not.

I can see by posting here you are trying to figure that out but it is hard for us to judge when we don't know the whole situation and we aren't in a position to help if you are needing more support. It would be good if you could speak to someone who understands about this.

His text isn't great. Him bringing it up in anger isn't great. If he is concerned that cutting out a good friend over what he perceives is a minor or non event is a warning sign that your mental health is deteriorating then he could have approached you with less anger and more concern.

Just because you have a diagnosis doesn't mean every friendship or relationship issue should be dismissed as you having faulty perception. If the relationships aren't right for you you shouldn't be stuck in them.

But you must know that the all or nothing thinking, that they must be totally loyal or they have betrayed you irrevocably, is a warning sign that you might need more support?

I have an acquaintance and a brother with BPD. I wouldn't want you to not have professional support if you need it because it can be really scary.

My best friend has BPD and we have had a couple of years where we haven't spoken because I wasn't there enough/supportive enough. She was and is incredibly needy and it's exhausting sometimes. I now try and manage it better.

The fact is BPD does make friendships very hard and it means that your view of it will be different from his.
It's your decision.
But he doesn't owe you agreement on everything you decide. He has a human right to an opinion and if my partner was treating someone unreasonably you bet I'd have an opinion on it.

@Moomoot5

Pinkbonbon Yes kind of. Basically I was let down and she behaved in a way that made me realise we weren't the friends I thought we were. Loyalty is very important to me, maybe part of my condition, and if I'm friends with someone I will defend them to the death, something I did with her, but i didn't get the same back. Tbh it felt like I wasn't needed anymore so she she switched to someone who was.

loyalty is over rated.

Why would you automatically "defend them to the death" if they are wrong about something?

You certainly have no right to expect anyone to automatically defend or agree with you, as you seem to expect both your friend and your partner to do.

We can't comment on the original argument, but YABU to expect people to take your side automatically

Maybe you were wrong/ignorant/dangerous/selfish/unkind.

No, your friend or your partner should not automatically back you up - why should they?

If he was coming from a caring place then why didn't he say "It may be that, by overreacting, you are causing yourself harm. Cutting off your nose to spite your face. Losing friends you benefited more from having", rather than """She did fuck all to you. She doesn’t know how to handle your MH. I don’t know even.""""?

Because he's frustrated and people don't communicate with perfect clinical neutrality in real life and relationships.

Maybe he has OP's best interests at heart, maybe he doesn't but I'm not sure we can tell here.

@lottiegarbanzo

If he was coming from a caring place then why didn't he say "It may be that, by overreacting, you are causing yourself harm. Cutting off your nose to spite your face. Losing friends you benefited more from having", rather than """She did fuck all to you. She doesn’t know how to handle your MH. I don’t know even.""""?

Because he's frustrated and people don't communicate with perfect clinical neutrality in real life and relationships.

Maybe he has OP's best interests at heart, maybe he doesn't but I'm not sure we can tell here.

I agree.

I will full admit there were times I didn't handle my partners mental health well. Frustration, fear, exhaustion from going over the same sort of situations again and again (even if the detail changes), emotional involvement, lack of experience etc all contribute to people not doing giving the exact right reaction.

Even if the intention isn't a negative intention, people in relationships with those with mental health problems don't always get it right and don't learn the right way to deal with things over night.

I agree that loyalty is overrated. I also think it's quite rare and that what OP does out of loyalty, other people do out of self-interest.

That is, maintaining the friendship is more important to them than whether their friend is right or wrong, because they like having close friends (who are similarly unconcerned about their own imperfections, idiocies and, possibly, nastiness and prejudice towards others outside the group). This is why friends are usually the last people to point out that you're doing something stupid, nasty or making a mistake that will damage you, because they value maintaining the friendship for their own benefit above truth and doing the right thing by you in this instance. They may also think that being there for you in the long term, to pick up the pieces, is better for you than speaking a truth that will cause you to fall out and may lead to you being isolated in a bad relationship, for example.

Most friendships and friendships groups are contingent. Many do last years, or a lifetime, because they're contingent on simple things like being friendly, keeping in touch and having interesting enough things to say to each other occasionally. Many others are situational, they can be very intense at the time but that time passes.

I think true loyalty, of the defend to the death type, usually comes out of prolonged intense or adverse experiences e.g. explorers, soldiers, motherhood, friendship since primary school, surviving something difficult; because people go through something very testing together, which cuts through all the superficiality to the core of being a decent person, doing everything they can to keep each other alive, or sane and functioning, or that otherwise shaped them in some way they see as fundamental and unique to themselves.

What is your test, before declaring undying loyalty to people OP? Is your bar high enough?

Oh yes and I think what you want from a partner is that rare thing above the average friendship; loyalty and the ability to speak the truth. Someone who has your best interests at heart long-term, so is willing to risk not being liked by you for a time, being the object of your upset, to bring uncomfortable issues to your attention. But also, to support you through dealing with them.

Loyalty does not mean agreeing with your every whim, stupid or self-destructive activity. That sort of 'partner' is a danger to you and is probably just there for the ride, in both senses.

Your partner is a prick. I wouldn't expect him to tell you you're right when he doesn't believe you are but I would expect him to say his piece and leave it at that.

Couples are allowed to have different opinions. They're not allowed to use poor mental health as a stick to beat each other with.

OP, do you worry about your ability to maintain friendships? Do you ever talk to him about that?

Does he struggle to know what to say to people, how to manage people, with his own social skills, generally? Is that part of the issue, that he finds it hard to say something neutralising to the colleague, like 'well Moomoot5 is my partner and I love her but she's her own person, you really can't hold me responsible for her choices, or expect me to act as her middle-man, so can we drop this now?'.

I have been the friend in this situation. I was unceremoniously dumped by a very close friend of many many years. I had no idea why, and when I found out her reason, it was so ridiculous, my immediate reaction was one of concern.
She does have MH issues, and like in your situation, I work with her husband (in fact, you could be her! Other than the fact that this happened 3 years ago...) No-one has said anything at all to her- not her husband, her family, no-one, although they all think she's massively overreacted. I think that they've done her a huge disservice by not saying anything to her. She has no other close friends. She suffers at her own hands over this.

@SilentPanic I think this can often play a part.

When do starts cutting people off, he leaves himself in a worse position. Less support, less interaction can contribute or accelerate a spiral.

That also means there's more pressure on me to be his whole support system. Again, another reason someone may not always be able to deal with this is the best way.

There's no cut and dried answer here. He could be a dick. He could also be someone who is trying to do the best he can and thinks ops is making decisions that's actually negatively impacting her.

Cutting people off, is always seen as a positive on MN. But in RL is often not.

Wow lots of responses, thank you.

No I don't set the bar too high initially, remembering my favourite flavour of crisps is a 'sign' to me. Once in a relationship though I expect a lot more.
Yes I'm aware this is a problem.

I have only recently been diagnosed and am about to start treatment.

I'm not sure how he reacts to her at work but his opinion about my behaviour makes me think he sympathises with her. I know he has trouble admitting his mistakes so he could be using this as an example of my bad behaviour to take the focus off him?

Yes I expect loyalty but I don't want a doormat. I want someone to be honest with me but in a constructive way, not as proof of my nutty behaviour.

He is quite emotional and reacts without thinking a lot so that doesn't help when combined with my behaviour either.

Sorry if I missed any questions but thank you for taking the time to help

I suggested that perhaps you set your bar (for undying loyalty) too low, not too high.

I think friendships are more nuanced than you seem to. They're not yes/no entities. They naturally wax, wane and change.

I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, generalising but I struggle to think of a single instance in which absolute and undying loyalty is a good thing. It is a common thing, driven by mutual self-interest. That leads to conspiracies, cover-ups and injustices for those not 'part of the club'.

Even for the most well-trained of soldiers, 'only obeying orders' is not an adequate defence for doing something damaging, out of unquestioning loyalty.

Were I you OP, I'd shift focus to being more contingent; understanding what matters to you, what doesn't and why. Then on communication. How can you bring things that bother you to people's attention, to give them a chance of fixing things, without going ballistic or cutting them off?

A focus on loyalty means you can cut people off too easily for small things, while putting up with real monsters, because you can't see past your commitment to them.

Did it occur to you that your friend might have had a different point of view from yours? That she might have known things you didn't? Had a context you didn't? That her action might have been explained quite easily, maybe even satisfactorily, if you'd asked her to explain? Did you ask her?

@Moomoot5 so actually, it's not that complex. Put a man between two women, ANY two women and he will try to keep the peace. Tell her what she wants to hear, and probably you too, at the start. But the fact is, he has skin in the game with you, your his partner. So he's closer to you emotionally and has more first hand experience of you. And he's perhaps playing out his emotions about your behaviour through this scenario.

Again without knowing any more details, it's hard to judge whether he should just back you without question, but by blocking this friend and his colleague you've unwittingly put him in the dreaded triangulation holding pattern between two women and men don't do well there historically!!

Did it occur to you that your friend might have had a different point of view from yours?
Yes it did, hers was that I was no longer useful to her so she stopped contacting me.

If she stopped contacting you, what necessitated blocking her?

If she stopped contacting you, what necessitated blocking her?
So she couldn't in the future if she decided she needed something.

Did it occur to you that your friend might have had a different point of view from yours? Yes it did, hers was that I was no longer useful to her so she stopped contacting me.

Oh right. You asked her and that's what she told you?

I mean, your assumption may well be right. She might be a total user who was using you all along. There are such people. Is it possible though, that she might have viewed it in less black and white terms? Or, possibly, had things going on in her own life at the time, that you knew nothing about, that could have influenced her behaviour? Is it possible that she needed compassion rather than judgement?

The older I get, the more I realise that the way people behave towards me is driven by what is going on in their own lives, not by anything to do with me. I'm just collateral damage (and vice versa, sometimes) when things are going badly. Given time, space and the odd kind word, most friendships can be kept going, for their own full, natural life.

Thing is, people drifting away because a friendship has run its course is normal and natural. You can choose to describe that as people dropping each other because they're no longer useful to each other, if you like. That's a very transactional, cold-blooded point of view.

Isn't that what you did to her though? You told us it was you who cut her off, not the other way around. She let you down, you decided she no longer met your strict criteria for the honour of being your friend, so you dumped her. Because, as a defective and imperfect friend, (whose own explanation for her behaviour was of no interest to you), she was no longer of any use to you.

There are two sides to every story. Maybe if you told us more about what happened, it would emerge that she was an utter selfish user and you were well rid. I'm not saying my 'alternative' perspective is correct. I'm just trying to prompt you to think in less black and white terms.

I have / had a friend who I'm pretty sure has BPD/EUPD (is that what we're talking about here, rather than bipolar?), who had an extremely rigid, self-centred outlook on the world and other people, that didn't really allow for the idea that people had other stuff going on and were not solely motivated by their feelings towards her, even by calculated thoughts about her, in all their interactions (or failures to interact) with her. She expressed a weird combination of assuming everyone was thinking about her a lot more than they actually were, while wishing them not to think about her at all, yet actually craving attention, on her own terms. (I think this 'everyone's looking at me' effect is common with depression too). Also, she couldn't seem to tell the difference between feelings and facts. if she felt something, that made it a fact and no real world evidence was relevant or necessary.

I've no idea how you are, or if there are any similarities. Just sharing as food for thought, if helpful.

As for your partner, the obvious advice is to talk to him. Explain how hos behaviour makes you feel. Ask him, in a non-accusatory way, why he goes about things the way he does. Be prepared to listen and to try to understand. Maybe he is being disloyal in the ways that matter in a relationship. That is quite possible. Maybe if he understood that he'd be motivated to stop. Maybe not.

Well no. You can't go through life doing things, using a condition as an excuse and expecting your partner to wholeheartedly agree with those decisions. He has his own opinions and is entitled to them as are you.