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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Is abusive behaviour always abuse?

51 replies

Completelybewildered · 16/08/2021 10:37

Is abusive behaviour always abusive? If someone whose behaviour would be regarded as abusive is alleging that they are not trying to behave in a way that hurts the other person or their DC , how should the situation be addressed?

OP posts:
GreyCarpet · 16/08/2021 10:40

What sort of behaviour is it?

Sometimes behaviour is driven from fear or past experience and isn't intended to actually curtail the life or freedoms of another because the 'abuser' doesn't want them to be happy but the experience of the 'abused' is no different.

Shoxfordian · 16/08/2021 10:41

Yes abusive behaviour is abusive regardless of any nonsense they’re telling you

Pinkbonbon · 16/08/2021 10:41

If I deliberately kick a puppy and I then say 'I didn't mean to hurt the puppy' is that forgivable?

Let them sat what they want. Its bullshit and they know it. They just dont want you to know that they know it.

Keep this person as far away from you as possible. Do not entertain their claims. Just 'cool story bro' and walk away. They lie, the abuse and they bloody well mean to.they know their behaviour is hurtful but they don't care.

Dont be fooled.

Pinkbonbon · 16/08/2021 10:48

Also op, if someone has you questioning if there is an excuse for abusive behaviour or if their horribly hurtful behaviour was not as bad as it actually way - that's a key indicator that they are abusive and will continue to abuse. Because normal people dont kick puppies and then try to convince people that that behaviour is ok.

You should never find yourself trying to explain why obviously shitty evil behaviour is so shitty and evil. To anyone. If you do, that person is abusive. And they have no empathy. And you cannot educate empathy into anyone.

Pinkbonbon · 16/08/2021 10:49

*than it actually was

Original poster
Completelybewildered · 16/08/2021 10:52

No physical violence. Objections to spending time with long standing friends of the opposite sex, verbally aggressive behaviour, name calling to the dc, just a general lack of respectful communication.

OP posts:
GreyCarpet · 16/08/2021 10:55

That's abuse.

There's no justification for name calling or verbally abusive behaviour.

The only time I can imagine objectors to spending time with friends of the opposite sex being justifiable would be if someone had a tendency to have sex with them but then the answer would be to leave that person not make their lives miserable.

Pinkbonbon · 16/08/2021 10:59

Theres no excuse to call children names or be aggressive. No excuse for any of that shit. None. No need to explain why it is not ok behaviour. They know fine it's not acceptable.

Just minimise contact as much as possible op. Dont stop to listen to their bs. Always have somewhere else to be.

ravenmum · 16/08/2021 11:09

Being an abuser doesn't mean that a person has sat down and decided "I know, I'll abuse my partner. I'll be an abuser". It doesn't even necessarily mean that they have sat down and thought "If I make my partner scared then I will get what I want". It can just mean that they have learned that when they act a certain way, they get what they want - and they ignore the effect it has on you, or think you deserve it. Being an abuser means your behaviour is abusive.

Original poster
Completelybewildered · 16/08/2021 11:17

@ravenmum

Being an abuser doesn't mean that a person has sat down and decided "I know, I'll abuse my partner. I'll be an abuser". It doesn't even necessarily mean that they have sat down and thought "If I make my partner scared then I will get what I want". It can just mean that they have learned that when they act a certain way, they get what they want - and they ignore the effect it has on you, or think you deserve it. Being an abuser means your behaviour is abusive.
@ravenmum I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with your explanation
OP posts:
SilverRoe · 16/08/2021 11:18

Abusive behaviour IS abuse, regardless of whether the person is literally trying to be hurtful or not in some sort of ‘oh i’ll be abusive today’ sort of way. If this person is claiming they don’t intend to hurt you but they are then they are trying to minimise and make out like it isn’t abusive. It’s manipulative and most abusers will pull shit like this, after all what are they going to do? Confess that yea they are well aware it’s abuse and they are doing it anyway because they get something out of it? Abusers never do this, they always find some excuse to try and justify their behaviour.

category12 · 16/08/2021 11:19

Verbal abuse of the dc would be the end of it for me.

Intention isn't magic. The effect of abuse is the same.

Put your kids first, they shouldn't have to live with this.

Original poster
Completelybewildered · 16/08/2021 11:53

@category12 I’m trying to put my dc first, that’s why this thread was started so I could get an impartial handle on things. If it was more blatant behaviour things would be far easier but verbal abuse is insidious.

OP posts:
WhatMattersMost · 16/08/2021 12:34

@ravenmum has defined abuse perfectly. And, yes, the person you describe is abusive.

Verbal abuse is one of the more obvious ones, imo.

AhNowTed · 16/08/2021 12:47

OP if you're walking on eggshells, modifying your behaviour to placate him, not seeing your friends as he doesn't like it, shushing the kids, and waiting for the next explosion, then yes you're in an abusive relationship.

whatisnormalanyway21 · 16/08/2021 13:07

Verbal abuse is difficult to identify IMO as most of us would have at some point in our lives said something nasty to someone which could be construed as verbal abuse.
I would agree that abusive behaviour is abuse by definition. It wholly depends on the situation or situations that arose and what the interpretation of abuse is.
If a disagreement takes place between a couple and one, or both, hurt each other verbally, name calling etc, is that considered verbal abuse or a verbal attack.
Identifying what’s the difference between verbal abuse and a ‘normal’ argument is important IMO and it can be difficult to be certain. Neither are pleasant experiences.
A sustained period of abuse, name calling, intentionally trying to belittle their partner, degrade them, threaten them are identifiable and give a clearer overall picture that’s easier to identify if it is abuse.

Colourmeclear · 16/08/2021 13:41

As soon as you point out to them that it hurts you and you don't like it any confusion over whether it is deliberate or not is removed. They heard you and therefore id they are taking no active steps to change their behaviour it is 100% deliberate.

Dogfan · 16/08/2021 15:22

Completely agree with @ravenmum. Worth reading "why does he do that" by Lundy Bancroft. I remember reading this section which basically said the abuser rationalises their behaviour because they get what they want but also because they will define abuse in such a way that they are innocent e.g. I would never hit a woman for no good reason (but therefore I would hit a woman If I thought she deserved it, and that's not abuse as far as I'm concerned). So you won't get him to see that his behaviour is abusive and you'll drive yourself mad trying. There are lots of good social media accounts etc that have great insights (and podcasts) that might help you start to make sense of things. I follow Caroline Strawson and Melanie tonia Evans.

user16395699 · 16/08/2021 15:28

What you've described already sounds pretty blatant to me.

Maybe it doesn't feel that way to you since you have lived with it for a long time, but from the outside abuse is abuse. There are no excuses that make it ok.

Flakeymcwakey · 16/08/2021 15:30

Sorry to thread jump. But what about stonewalling/ sending to Coventry over extended periods but with the explanation that "I can't talk to you when I am this upset"? I had a close friend who did this and I ended up ending the relationship because it was so upsetting and I ended up walking in eggshells. Lots of people said it was emotional abuse. But since according to the abuser, the behaviour wasn't about the effect on me but as a result of her difficulty, I didn't see it as that clear cut.

MumofLandD · 16/08/2021 18:09

I haven't read all the replies but wanted to say that if a behaviour makes you feel upset then it is abusive. I have recently realised after 25 years in a not particularly happy relationship that i have been being emotionally abused and gaslit for a long time. After having therapy to change myself from being a control freak that I was being told I am, I realise so much now. If you are questioning then it is probably abusive. Whether you put a label on it or not, if you aren't happy, try to get it sorted or leave. Good luck x

Couldhavebeenme2 · 16/08/2021 18:17

@Completelybewildered

No physical violence. Objections to spending time with long standing friends of the opposite sex, verbally aggressive behaviour, name calling to the dc, just a general lack of respectful communication.
My dad refused to believe I was being abused as my ex never hit me. He did however tick every other box - financial, emotional, sexual, coersive etc.

The only truth here op is that if you don't like his behaviour it needs to stop. If you're still in the early days, and are prepared to give him 'settling in' time, and he adjusts his behaviour (although in the early days this would have me running a mile) then fair enough. If it's not OK with you, it's not OK.

TheFoundations · 16/08/2021 18:28

@Completelybewildered

No physical violence. Objections to spending time with long standing friends of the opposite sex, verbally aggressive behaviour, name calling to the dc, just a general lack of respectful communication.
None of this is forgivable.

A typical symptom of being an abuse victim is to try to fish around in the abuser's psyche, trying to find a way that makes the behaviour 'make sense'. When something makes sense to you, you can see how you might do a similar thing in a similar circumstance. And that makes it forgivable.

What this person is doing is abusing, and then playing on the forgiving nature of their victim. That's what all abusers do. Other than using abject fear, their victim's forgiving nature is the only tool at their disposal to get their victim to stay with them.

Why does it matter what the motivation is for the behaviours you've detailed here? Whatever the cause , it's a toxic environment, and the way to deal toxicity isn't to try to detoxify it, it's to distance yourself from it.

You can't stop bleach being poisonous by sweetening it up.
You can't stop abusive behaviour being abuse by finding an innocent motivation.

Original poster
Completelybewildered · 17/08/2021 13:39

@Pinkbonbon

If I deliberately kick a puppy and I then say 'I didn't mean to hurt the puppy' is that forgivable?

Let them sat what they want. Its bullshit and they know it. They just dont want you to know that they know it.

Keep this person as far away from you as possible. Do not entertain their claims. Just 'cool story bro' and walk away. They lie, the abuse and they bloody well mean to.they know their behaviour is hurtful but they don't care.

Dont be fooled.

@Pinkbonbon we are married and joint finances, I can’t just say cool story bro and walk away
OP posts:
Redruby2020 · 17/08/2021 13:44

Well yes I'm a way, as an abuser will always maintain that they didn't know or realise, or that what they have or are doing is abuse 🙄