Words and actions don't match

[ErstwhileGoth]

I know the advice in here is always to look at the actions not the words and I believe this is very good advice when someone is promising you everything but delivering nothing or saying they love you but behaving in ways that don't demonstrate love.
Talk is cheap and it's easy to say, "I love you," or "I care about you," and the behave in ways that show contempt or a lack of thought. The confusion and hope is what keeps people in unsatisfactory and damaging relationships for years.

But what about when it s the other way round?

What about when there are no words or love or affection but their actions suggest otherwise?

Urghhh you seem to be over complicating things here. He says he was hurt by you dumping him. You’re now back together but for some reason you keep saying you “don’t know” if you’re back together. But he’s affectionate, considerate, kind and does tonnes of things for you. Yet you’re actually still wanting to ask him how he feels or if he loves you? And you don’t know what to say if people ask if you’re a couple? Yes! Yes of course you are. What else can it be? He’s not your friend… but I can imagine that he feels like he’s doing everything possible to show you how he feels and you are still
Questioning it.
You said “I’ve never been loved” but I think you are but you just aren’t recognising it when it’s staring you in the face. And if this isn’t love then I don’t know what is. And if you don’t recognise love- you need to work on that alone I think first. You say you have a teenage daughter so you’re not young, but your angst sounds very teenage yourself. I’m wondering if you’ve not had good experiences in relationships so in some way you are stuck in a very immature relationship level of ability where you are emotionally almost a teenager. You sound like you want him to write your names on the pencil case to “prove” his love. Or if he added your name to his bio on insta that would show you. Do you see how “young” that is?
Honestly I don’t mean this badly at all but you really could do with some counselling as you are chasing him for something he is giving you- but you’re not able to see it.

@ravenmum

I think that less conventional relationships require a bit of jiggling about before you find a stable position.

But perhaps you could try and work out why exactly you broke up with him before - whether there was any aspect of self-sabotage due to your personal background and fears, if that's been an ongoing thing. Pragmatism is a form of self-protection. What are you protecting yourself against? What else does that barrier keep out?
Maybe it's time to have a good think/read or even get some professional insights and move past that "I'm bad at relationships" shit?

Thank you! Very thought provoking...

Yes, I think there was an element of self sabotage before when I ended it. I found myself becoming very down and felt upset because I couldn't cope with it. I've only ever dated men I couldn't imagine a future with or didn't really have feelings beyond lust for to protect myself against getting hurt. I'm.protecting myself against the belief that I'm not loveable so I don't put myself in situations where I'm going to have that proven to me because I already expect it so what's the point?

It's why I'm comfortable with the idea of him letting me down gently - I'm only human so I still hope but realistically, it's highly unlikely that he would love me. I just need to hear it. But in a way that isn't going to ruin what we do have.

I can see how i have pushed him away in the past but he has stuck around and not made it easy for me to do so. He wanted to stay friends after I ended it and we have very slowly built up to where we are but with no discussion around it really beyond one conversation where he told me about being wary. That was a couple.of months ago.

@wantmorenow

Funny you mentioned him not staying over as he was mindful about your kids. Mine was too, kids knew him as we were colleagues, but it was about a year before he even stayed over when they were there. Again he sounds great.

I think knowing what you want to achieve before sending your letter is really important to identify before you send it actually.

If it's to let him know you love him, regret previously ending it, want him to know you're sticking around and won't hurt him, etc If he places importance on actions not words, I suggest you sending words to him without linking them to actions (past, current or present) may just baffle him.

Mine didn't understand why I wanted to say Iove you, as it was just words and 'why do you need to analyse stuff, we're fine, words mean nothing'. He also needed to have a long history with me before he could allow himself to commit. I thought it was because he was unemotional and a bit cold if I'm honest. Now I believe it's because he actually feels things very deeply and emotions overwhelm him. He appears to be quite flat emotionally but when I called him out for 'not doing love' once, he was deeply hurt by me judging him negatively. Took ages to repair damage done. Have a search for my thread on this topic.
Wish I hadn't dealt with it as I did with hindsight.

Your post makes a lot of sense! I will look at your thread on it, thanks.

I think hebis probably quite similar to your partner. And I can completely see what you mean about the words with no context.

Perhaps I need to make myself a bit vulnerable amd explain in more detail. Even now I can see that the short letter I as proposing was 'shutting down' because it didn't allow, expect or require anything from him other than letting me down gently.

I know that he loves and loves deeply. I jut don't have amybexpectation that it would apply to me. It feels so alien that I don't even consider it to be a possibility whilst trying to remain open to it.

I really want to caveat it all with - I know you don't love me but... I guess that's not the answer to go about it but it underpins how I am with him. And anyone else.

Maybe I do just need to make myself truly vulnerable...

would that leave him open to unexpectedly 'falling in love' with someone else down the line or looking for it?
That happens when you're with Mr "You are the love of my life", too.

I'd be giving up on the chance of being 'loved'
Or you might unexpectedly fall in love with someone else down the line :)

I am enjoying having a considerate partner. He remembers my plans and asks about them; he pays attention to what I say and respects my wishes. We get on well and have a good time together; my life is more enjoyable with him in it. I have no doubt he'd be sad if something happened to me. He's not the type to cynically use other people while secretly slagging them off; quite the opposite, he's very generous and accepting. But if, againstall the odds, he's just doing this so he can sleep with me, well it's frankly still a much better deal than what my ex offered!

Did your parent(s) outright tell you that you were unlovable, or did they just not have much time for you, so that you learned it was safer not to demand too much - limiting expectations?

@LowlytheWorm

Urghhh you seem to be over complicating things here. He says he was hurt by you dumping him. You’re now back together but for some reason you keep saying you “don’t know” if you’re back together. But he’s affectionate, considerate, kind and does tonnes of things for you. Yet you’re actually still wanting to ask him how he feels or if he loves you? And you don’t know what to say if people ask if you’re a couple? Yes! Yes of course you are. What else can it be? He’s not your friend… but I can imagine that he feels like he’s doing everything possible to show you how he feels and you are still Questioning it. You said “I’ve never been loved” but I think you are but you just aren’t recognising it when it’s staring you in the face. And if this isn’t love then I don’t know what is. And if you don’t recognise love- you need to work on that alone I think first. You say you have a teenage daughter so you’re not young, but your angst sounds very teenage yourself. I’m wondering if you’ve not had good experiences in relationships so in some way you are stuck in a very immature relationship level of ability where you are emotionally almost a teenager. You sound like you want him to write your names on the pencil case to “prove” his love. Or if he added your name to his bio on insta that would show you. Do you see how “young” that is? Honestly I don’t mean this badly at all but you really could do with some counselling as you are chasing him for something he is giving you- but you’re not able to see it.

I see what you're saying. We're not 'back together' though. That conversation has never been had.

I think you're right about me being 'stuck' in quite a teenage emotional sstate.ive thought myself a few times. I've never had a real relationship- they've all looked like the relationships I had as a teenager when I had no intention of settling down or thinking beyond the next date.

But I'm.also not naive. There are so many posts by women on here who say, "But I know he loves me.to bits," when it's patently.obvious to anyone reading that he doesn't give a shit or is just using them. So I can't just 'assume' anything - whatever it looks like.

And, no, I don't really know how relationships work which is why I say I'm rubbish at them!

Did your parent(s) outright tell you that you were unlovable, or did they just not have much time for you, so that you learned it was safer not to demand too much - limiting expectations?

Outright told me.

I'd accepted it by the time I was a teenager. I've never expected it.

You need to unaccept it.
You know you'd never say anything like that to your daughter.
What issues did your parents have, that they were so keen to pass on?

It feels silly and arrogant to 'unaccept' it. I understand what you mean and what you're saying completely but it feels 'too much' to apply it to myself.

Is also why I'm trying to stay open to the idea that his actions are showing that he might have feelings and quietly hoping that he does whilst simultaneously being certain that he doesn't and feeling ridiculous for even considering it.

It was my mum rather than my dad. She just didn't think I was lovable. She taught me that I didn't/don’t have the looks to be loved and didn't/don't have the personality/character to make up for that. Told me men would only settle for me and wouldn't stick around because they could do better. In a nutshell.

I've conducted my life and my relationships in accordance with this forever.

I've had therapy. I know it isn't true but the emotional impct is harder to address.

Like I say, it just feels silly and arrogant to assume otherwise. So, should it ever happen, I would need to be told.

And just to put it into perspective, typing that out is very grounding. It makes me realise how ridiculous I'm being. But, at the same time, I do appreciate everything he has done.

@ErstwhileGoth

Oh didn't actually reply to the comment 🙄

Given that self esteem is about valuing yourself regardless of how others feel about you, I don't see how having self esteem would mean that you assumed someone loved you.

It's about the fact that you can be open with the other person and show your true self, and then accurately guage their response, rather than wrapping yourself up in endless questions, which, if you just asked outright, you would have an answer to.

The heart of your problem is that you can't say to him 'I love you' or ask him 'Do you love me?' because of your fear of rejection. Your insecurity is in the way.

People with healthy self esteem don't assume that people love them; they understand that if somebody loves them, it will be clear to them, and if it's not, it's pointless making that person the centre of their life.

For example, if you show love by playing the person tunes on the cello, and the person you love hates the cello, the two of you are incompatible, regardless of the amount of love either of you feels. This is why you hear people say 'Being in love is not enough'. You have to be able to understand the love and trust the love, otherwise it's just a concept, and our emotional selves can't be sustained on concepts. We need to feel it.

Love goes like this:

Self-Esteem-Woman: 'Here is all of me, warts and all. I'm not afraid to show you all of me, even the insecure bits! Oh, you're smiling, that's nice! And you're not trying to change my warts, lovely! I will stay with you.'

No-Self-Esteem-Woman: 'Here are all my amazing best bits! You're smiling! That's fabulous and it feels great. Being loved is lovely! There is no way on this earth I'm going to reveal my warts to you, because you'll stop smiling and then I'll die. I will never risk finding out about how you feel about my warts, and so there will always be a question mark about how you really feel about me. Oh no. Now I feel horrible if I stay, but also I will feel horrible if I leave.'

(it's a bit dramatic but you get my point )

As someone said, you have a teenage daughter, so you're not a youngster. Could you get into the mindset that you are too old to be entertaining your mother's nonsense any longer? That you are now a mature adult, so even if you're affected by your past, you can still control your actions?

Whose words and actions don't match?

@TheFoundations that is kind of funny but also really accurate!

@ErstwhileGoth

And just to put it into perspective, typing that out is very grounding. It makes me realise how ridiculous I'm being. But, at the same time, I do appreciate everything he has done.

It's important to accept that the realisation you need to make is 'I'm being ridiculous'. That's a self esteem crusher in itself.

The realisation is 'There is nothing wrong with me.'

This is because what you have been doing all this time is a very valid way of emotionally dealing with what you were dealt. You have been conditioned, and like any sane, logical person, you have responded to this conditioning. It's what healthy people do. We do things that get us the response that feels best to us. So, your responses this far have been proof that something is right with you. It's just that the situation was unhealthy, and now, like the sane, logical, healthy person you are, you are recognising the need to adapt to different circumstances.

It's really good to write things down. The penny dropped for me when I suddenly realised one day 'The only thing wrong with me is the fact that I think there's something wrong with me.'

It sounds like you're on a good path, here. Be careful of putting yourself down. Many very smart people never make the realisations you're making right now.

It's important to accept that the realisation you need to make is 'I'm being ridiculous'. That's a self esteem crusher in itself

• isn't isn't isn't 'I'm being ridiculous'

So sorry! Most misleading semantic fail!

OP your later posts are so revealing.

Early in this thread, I suggested that the reason you can't accept that he loves you based on his actions, and stop worrying about the words, was because you have low self esteem. Your reply indicated that you thought that wasn't relevant here.

But it is! It really, really is. Your later posts show that your lack of self worth (due to the awful things your mum said to you) is 100% the reason that you can't accept he loves you until he says it. Honestly it couldn't be any clearer! This man loves you!!

I'd take show over tell anyday.

My partner of almost 2 years is super physically affectionate, but he just told me he loved for the first time a couple weeks ago. I already knew it, because he's never been anything but kind, respectul and attentive to me. I don't need to hear it, although it's nice.

This isn't something that can be done in a letter . You need to have a chat about this so that you can immediately clarify any points . I'm afraid you can't assume about people based on their actions. Bite the bullet and have a "do you see us as a couple?" chat .

Hey op. It is very clear that man loves you and is devoted to you. That is his love language. Of course it would be nice if he also says it but some people struggle to say it. It may be to do with his childhood.

I would be yourself around him. If he makes you feel great or if you're appreciative or if you love him then tell him. That may make him feel secure enough to follow your example.

I'm sorry about your mother. What a fucking vile thing to say and as she is most definitely toxic/narcissistic it must have been accompanied by a whole host of other shit.

You are lovable and this man absolutely loves you.

Every post by you helps us understand. I think you should scrap your idea of telling him you love him. I really see no benefit to saying it.

What is your rush? Channel your inner child if that's not too corny. No relationship comes with any warranty or guarantees.
Right now you have a kind, sexy, caring man who enjoys your company, treats you well and with respect. Who puts himself out to prioritise you and thinks you are valuable in terms of his time and resources. That is all that needs to be known.
Neither you nor he can tell if this will last beyond another week, month, year etc. A declaration of love won't improve your chances of relationship longevity.
Value the now, stop analysing the unfathomable, and accept and recognise each kindness bestowed upon you as something you are worthy of. Enjoy yourself woman!

At our age and point in life there is no rush, no biological ticking clock, no need to shack up to have privacy and move out from parents, no need to depend financially on each other etc. It's a great place in life to be. There is no need to change anything in the name of "progressing" things.
What you have right now is to be appreciated for what it is - a great relationship with mutual attraction and enjoying yourselves. If, in a few years, you fancy moving in together, perhaps if your daughter moves out etc, then look at where you are when that time comes.
Only adults look to potentially spoil what they have right now with what ifs, young kids just enjoy stuff organically. Be less adult, take it a face value, one day at a time. It's precious.

Oh and your mother is toxic. Not sure if you said but if she's still alive, avoid her like the plague. She's wrong and unbelievably fucked up. 💐

TheFoundations

I get that and it makes sense. I have allowed myself to he vulnerable on occasion and he has 'seen my warts' as it were. But I think I was subconsciously communicating to him - leave me alone, I'm not worth it. He's still here though but I don't know why.

Now I feel horrible if I stay, but also I will feel horrible if I leave

That is exactly how I feel

Could you get into the mindset that you are too old to be entertaining your mother's nonsense any longer?

I've tried. And I can do it but I can't sustain it for any length of time. It's utterly exhausting.

That you are now a mature adult, so even if you're affected by your past, you can still control your actions?

I can. But I can't tell which of my thoughts/beliefs are reliable and which of my actions are appropriate or not. It only ever feels appropriate to walk away and I'm trying really hard not to do this because I know i wouldn't get another chance with him.

It's really good to write things down. The penny dropped for me when I suddenly realised one day 'The only thing wrong with me is the fact that I think there's something wrong with me.'

It's like there are two narratives running concurrently. I am completely aware of this in one narrative. In one narrative, I know all my successes along with my failings; I accept that I don't have to he perfect; I'm clear that my imperfections are uniquely mine and are what make me me and not someone else; I'm not afraid of who I am; I know if I showed you a photo of myself, you'd tell me I looked 'lovely'. Believe it or not, I have pretty good boundaries; I'm.kind but not a pushover; I'm not as introspective as I come across; I care about other people and I can appreciate and celebrate other people's successes without feeling threatened. I build other people up and encourage them to believe in themselves. I can completely see how when people remember how I made them feel, it will be largely positive; I feel as good as anyone else.

But in the other narrative, I hide away; I lack confidence in myself and my abilities; I can't see any of my positive qualities or they feel overshadowed by my inadequacies; I feel shame and embarrassment towards myself; none of the above is enough and none of it makes loveable because there's fundamentally something 'missing' in me that would make that possible.

So sorry! Most misleading semantic fail!

Ha, I did read it several times!

Honestly it couldn't be any clearer! This man loves you!!

I don't know. This is also where I experience a conflict. I wouldn't want to diminish or ignore the huge efforts he's made to support me over the months. Or the sacrifices he's made to be there for me. And he is always appreciative when I have done the same for him. But that speaks of him and his character; his kindness, his loyalty, his trustworthiness etc not his feelings regarding me.

When he helped me with the car, I thanked him.and he said it was not a problem amd he'd have done it for anyone. I took this as confirmation of the above. In the one conversation we had, I told him this because he used it as an example of times he had shown me that I mattered to him. He gave a list of 3 of his closest friends of 30 - 50 years standing and said he'd have done it for them - the most important people in his life and that was who he meant. Not literally 'anyone'.

I'm sorry about your mother. What a fucking vile thing to say and as she is most definitely toxic/narcissistic it must have been accompanied by a whole host of other shit.

It was.

I would be yourself around him. If he makes you feel great or if you're appreciative or if you love him then tell him. That may make him feel secure enough to follow your example.

I've told him everything except that I love him.

It's hard. Because of my beliefs when younger, I foundyself in sotuations where I wasn't respected. On a couple of occasions I was raped. Because of this, piv in most positions scares me a bit. I told him this and he took sex completely off the table for a few weeks. Then he let me lead it. I read it all wrong and wondered it had put him off me. I stopped initiating because I felt he was disgusted by me.

Again, in that one conversation we had, he brought it up and said he never wanted me to feel pressurised or uncomfortable and certainly not scared. We do other stuff often but not often piv. We did at the weekend for the first time in a few months. Afterwards he seemed a bit distant. But he hasn't been before so I wasn't sure if it was because I'd initiated it and he wasn't sure. Afterwards, I felt like I'd done the wrong thing. He was fine with me and said he was fine but something wasn't right.

wantmorenow

Your post makes a lot of sense. I think it's an 'object constancy' thing - which my adult son has brought up a few times. I find it hard to hold onto things as a constant state. So if something changes or happens differently, my default position is I've done something wrong and a person no longer feels the same way. Intellectually, I tell myself this doesn't make sense but it doesn't stop the feeling. Logically, I know that the words "I love you" are no indication of longevity and that there is nothing beyond the 'now'. But I don't know what 'now' is so I find it hard to contextualise the actions. If that makes sense?

I haven't had contact with her for 9 years. I assume I'd be aware of she was no longer alive but I also know im not in her Will so who knows!

I can so relate to the '2 narratives' thing. I was there a few years back. It's good that you can hear the bits that your poor parenting programmed into you, and distinguish them from the true stuff, but it's bewildering trying to apply it. You can't just say to someone with low self esteem 'Just feel better about yourself!'; it's a proper 'No shit, Sherlock!' sort of sentiment. We all know that we should feel better about ourselves, like we all know we're not supposed to eat the whole pack of chocolate digestives. It's the 'how' that we get stuck on.

Something that worked for me was being really really astonishingly seemingly-undeservedly nice to myself. If I wanted to hear 'I love you' - I said it, to myself. If I wanted to be treated in a loving way, I did it - to myself. All manner of treats were bought by me, for me. All manner of indulgences were indulged in. I spoilt myself stupid, and catered for my every whim. I didn't realise I was learning self respect; I was just following my BRILLIANT counsellor's instructions. But the thing is, once you've been treated well, it's addictive. You never want to give up the feeling. And that's where you start to set your standards. It stops being 'Please love me', and starts being 'If you want the privilege of a relationship with someone this awesome, you're going to have to make a bloody big positive impact on me, and not wreck any of this lovely life I have internally.'

I still treat myself to things much more than I used to. I had to pull back a bit because I started to get a bit fat , but that's self respect too. Going from 'OMG!! I've just realised that the world is mine!!' to 'I'd probably better not eat the whole world' is healthy self care...

The other thing is responsibility; you feel shit. But you're in charge. There's no external set of rules here whereby you might be doing it 'right' or he might be doing it 'wrong'. This is your relationship. You make the rules, and you design the relationship to fit what you want. The right partner will do this with you, and have similar and compromisable aims/goals/needs. If you don't say what you want and what you need, you haven't put your 'I'm responsible for my own happiness' boots on. Take charge. This terrified me when I did it, it's massive. But SO liberating. If somebody pushes my boundaries now, they get some version of 'No' or 'Stop'. Recognising that your 'no's and 'yesses' will come in different places at different times from other people, even those you're close to, is very empowering.

That voice inside you that tells you you're uncomfortable is the voice of the silenced little girl your Mum wouldn't listen to. Listen to her. When you nurture yourself, nurture her. When she speaks, listen to her. Draw her out; ask her what would make her feel better. Mine repeatedly said 'Netflix, Green and Blacks, and dressing gown, please', until she felt indulged enough. Now she's integrated. Do the same for the little you who feels she can't be loved. She can; but the first person to do it has to be you.

that speaks of him and his character; his kindness, his loyalty, his trustworthiness etc not his feelings regarding me
A doubt that creeps in on me sometimes, OP, is that my bf is with me out of pity/kindness. As you know, it's a self-doubt - even if the suspicion is correct and he is plotting to kill me with kindness, it's still not him that I am doubting really. And if my suspicion is wrong and he's being nice to me because he likes me and enjoys being with me, then my self-doubt is doing him an injustice.

If someone said to your daughter that she wasn't pretty or interesting enough to be loved, and it made her sad and scared to get in a relationship, what would you say to her?

(Can just imagine him saying "I'd have done it for anyone" as a polite phrase meaning "Don't feel uncomfortable at the effort I went to, or feel obliged to me" and you translating it into "I'd literally go to this effort for any random passer-by, you are not special" - without him having a clue what was going on! I know what you mean about these behaviours being easy to analyse in theory, but much harder in real time/real life.)