Words and actions don't match

[ErstwhileGoth]

I know the advice in here is always to look at the actions not the words and I believe this is very good advice when someone is promising you everything but delivering nothing or saying they love you but behaving in ways that don't demonstrate love.
Talk is cheap and it's easy to say, "I love you," or "I care about you," and the behave in ways that show contempt or a lack of thought. The confusion and hope is what keeps people in unsatisfactory and damaging relationships for years.

But what about when it s the other way round?

What about when there are no words or love or affection but their actions suggest otherwise?

IMO there is no one or the other. If you are in love with someone you have to do both - words and action. Any less means that he is holding back. While words without actions mean little, actions can also be misconstrued and denied. I have seen this from many —fucked up— men actually.

All the best op

@ErstwhileGoth

I'm going round to his this evening. I really want to address this but he's coming somewhere with me next Friday that is a bit of a big deal amd I don't want to ruin things. But, at the same time, I'd really like to know before then 😕

So, you want him to say something, but you don't want to say something to him about how you feel.

Can you not see how this is very pot/kettle?

You've detailed above about all the different things you feel at different times; have you said any of this stuff to him?

But are we an 'us' or is he open to meeting someone else? Am I special/important to him

I don't feel the need to rush anything but are we even travelling down the same road

Don't continue in a relationship where you're not comfortable enough to even get these basics out in the open. And don't expect him to talk when you're not talking.

How about going at it sideways rather than head on as a less high stakes opener. "so X, I was thinking about holidays for next summer, what do you think? Are we moving to the place where we can plan a week away together perhaps? I'm enjoying our relationship and think we'll be together then still, what do you think? Maybe we could pencil in for a week in July?"

Gives him a chance to discuss your relationship in terms of practical arrangements rather than feelings. Would be less about emotional stuff which he might not be able to articulate easily.

From experience, I have also found it helpful to let the question lie for a for hours/days so there is time to process it and think before expecting a reply. Works well with teenagers too lol.

Ok. I've come back to this a week later because I planned to say something to him this weekend and totally bottled it 🙄

One of the things that was an issue when we were seeing each other was that I play in a band but I didn't want him to come and see us and I was too nervous to play in front of him. He felt that this was me keeping him at a distance. He was probably right. I wasn't willing to allow myself to be vulnerable in front of him.

On Friday, he came to see my band play for the first time since before lockdown. I was really nervous. We both knew what a big deal it was for me. He was lovely. He's met my band mates before. He was charming, lovely, friendly. He also met brother. He was friendly with my brother, affectionate with me in front of him - kept putting his arm around me and kissing me. He was so supportive, positive and encouraging. Him being there made me feel 'safe' and, tbth, I wasn't expecting it to.

I have reflected upon this a lot this week and realised that I do love him. I can be very emotionally shut off at times and it's been a very long time (over a decade) since I told someone I loved them. I want to tell him.

I wasn't sure what to expect of him in front of my brother. Tbh, I expected him to maintain a distance of sorts if he weren't interested. He's a decent man who cares about the impact he has on others and treats people well. So I don't think he'd pretend or be oblivious to how it looked.

From things he has said before, I would like to think that he is showing how he feels but is waiting for me to say something.

Of course, he could just be taking the piss. But that would be my insecurities talking and not based on what I know of him. If that makes sense.

Aw OP that sounds lovely! So pleased for you

It was. But I still don't want to read anything into it if there's nothing to be read.

I've realised that I don't want it to continue without clarity but a conversation just seems huge and I'm terrible for my nerves doing the talking. Plus, I want to take the advice given to let it sit for a while to give him chance to think and process.

So I'm thinking of writing him a short letter.

I don't want it to be all romantic and full of hearts and flowers but I want him to know that I mean it too.

I essentially want to say something like this...

Dear ...,

Firstly, I want to thank you again for your support on Friday. You know how nervous I was about it but seeing you there made me feel safe. And your support and encouragement meant everything.

I had wanted to tell you something this weekend but couldn't find the time or the words to do so. More than anything, I really don't want to spoil what we have but, if I don't tell you, it won't stop it from being true; you just won't know. So I'm going to tell you now.

I love you.

That doesn't mean I want marriage or to cohabit. Never say never and all that but it's not what I'm aiming for..."

And after that I'm a bit stuck. We haven't even discussed whether we're exclusive but I also know that he is naturally exclusive if he's involved with someone. I want to be with him. I don't really want things to change. I just want to know that we're doing this and that we're in it together.

Just say that OP! After your .... add the last two sentences of your post. Perfect!

Thanks. I don't want to presume he feels the same though.

Since posting that, I thought that I might end it by saying I just wanted him to know. I don't expect him to tell that he loves me too. I just want him to he aware that that is how I feel so that he can tell me its not how he feels if it isn't. So that he doesn't hurt me. Because I know he wouldn't want to do that but if he doesn't realise I have feelings for him then he might.

If you said this to him in person, then at that point he could reply, and the conversation would progress naturally. It sounds as if you'd like to have the conversation in your letter :) hence you being stuck, as he's not replying :)

Ha, no the opposite really. But insee what you mean!

I've thought I could phone him up and say pretty much what I'm proposing to write but it's what he might say next that bothers me.

Obviously, if he said he loved me too, that would be easy. But, if he doesn't, it'll just be awkward for both of us.

He can process it and respond in his own time if I write it to him.

It's all a bit new to me. I've never loved anyone before or said it first. I've said it on occasion when it's been said to me because I find the whole thing awkward. But I don't think I've ever actually meant it.

My exh was the type you describe first - said "I love you" but was then inconsiderate, so I found it hard to believe. Current bf is like yours - lots of actions, really considerate, but we've had this conversation a couple of times and basically he says that's something he might have said in his 20s, but he's past it now. I'm not very good at it myself, either, though - tend to give compliments instead.
What if your guy is super happy with you but just really hates making declarations? Could you live with it?

I could live with that if I knew it was how he felt and he just felt a bit daft saying it.

But he would also have to be OK with me being a bit soppy on occasion I could even tolerate a light hearted eye roll.as long as I knew he appreciated it and wasn't recoiling in horror and disgust!

I wasn't planning on asking him if he feels the same. I would trust him not to string me along if he didn't feel the same.

I think that the main issue for me is that, currently, he is not "my guy" nor is he "with me". That's why I need to tell him how I feel.

If he told me that he didn't feel the same, I'd be OK with that because I'm quite pragmatic about things. But if anyone who saw us this weekend would have been forgiven for thinking we were very much in love.

So lovely that he's been great with you at your gig.

Maybe try telling him in baby steps?

"Love having you at the gig, you're support is great and you make me feel very special. You're very special to me too"

"I love spending time with you, hope you loved my band's gig?"

"Think you're a keeper as you're my favourite person"

"As we're getting on so well, how do you feel about committing to a holiday booking for next summer? I reckon we will still be bumbling along together then as we're a happy pair together?"

Lots of roundabout ways to open a conversation without such a high stakes direct declaration. These would definitely have been helpful if I'd used them with my DP. The nuclear ' option didn't make him feel special, I terrified him. It took a bloody age before he said he loved me back. Months, if not a year.

He still asserts, words are cheap, people lie and he prefers to be judged on his actions so avoids declarations. From his point of view, if he has to say it, then he's doing it wrong as I should be able to see he loves me by his actions. People are different.

To be fair, he is the most thoughtful and hard working partner in terms of day to day actions. In an early visit to my house he went to bring in my bins and saw one was very manky, I went to see what was taking so long. He was hosing it down and bleaching it. Lol. Another time he arrived with a lopper to attack my overgrown hedges. He's practical and makes me life easier by fixing stuff, often before I've even noticed that it needs sorting. On the other hand he can completely fail to notice it's my birthday even though we shared an office and colleagues cards were on my desk. He was mortified but not doing a once year grand gesture really isn't important when he's so consistently thoughtful throughout the year.

How he reacts to your big words may have little to do with you and everything to do with how he is wired, his personal past and his own family history. His actions shout to me that he thinks you're awesome already.

Thanks. I see what you mean about a big declaration scaring him off but I think I've done a lot of the baby steps.

I told him how much I appreciated him being there and his support. Especially as he had had a really hard week at work and I could tell he was shattered and really could have done with staying home and just going to bed!

He told me he thought we were great and he was really suppprtive and encouraging.

I suppose I don't feel that i can make any references to him being a keeper (that's actually what my brother said about him) because he's not actually mine to keep in the first place. We've already got plans for a couple of months ahead.

I think he would say the same as your partner (who sounds lovely!) in terms of words being cheap but I've never had a real relationship and so i dont really know what I'm doing and, tbh, I find it hard to imagine that, after all this time, someone might actually see me in that way!

So i don't have any expectations that he feels the same. Part.of me just wants him to know how I feel really so that he can let me down gently. I do think his actions suggest that he cares enough about me to do that.

I would finish the letter (or send as a long WhatsApp message if you want a faster reply) by saying that because you feel so strongly and because your dd is getting closer to him then you would like some clarification on what the relationship is and what it means to him. You could reference the previous split and say something like 'as you know, the feeling of security is very important to me and I think now, as you start to meet more of my family, it would be good to make sure we are both on the same page.'

So you want him to say either yes, he does love you, or no, he doesn't love you - and if it's the latter then you hope he'll break it to you gently?
What if he thinks you're a great person, and would like to be with you forever ideally if possible, but like my bf gave up on the whole notion of love decades ago? Would you drop him, do you think? Or would it be enough if he just agreed that you are a couple?

I would write a letter rather than text. He doesn't like messaging and I don't think it's appropriate for a serious conversation.

I don't really want to ask anything of him. He's an intelligent man and he gets the implications. It's only been in the past few months that he would spend the night at mine. He didn't feel it was appropriate to sleep in my daughter's home because he didn't want her to feel uncomfortable. As it happens, she early likes him and it was she who suggested he stop over the first time so that he didn't have to drive home late at night.

I was the one who ended it and I think he is wary because of that (understandably). He knows my relationship history isn't great and I told him once that I was rubbish at relationships and should be kept away from them 🙄

I don't even know if a relationship is what I want precisely because of this. It would need a conversation.

But I do love him and I want him to know that. I want whatever we have to be exclusive. If he doesn't feel the same, I want him to tell me so I can protect myself against it.

I would probably want the affection to stop because what feels the hardest at the moment is that the 'relationship' I have with him is the best one I've ever had without it actually being a relationship.

And I'm finding it increasingly difficult to know how to respond when friends (mine and his) ask what's going on between us. Because I don't know and I don't have an answer.

I also want him to know that I'm not looking to merge our lives any more than they are.

Not only that but if a man flirts with me or asks me out for a drink, I wouldn't engage if we were together but I might flirt back or go out on a date for the craic if we're not.

So I don't really want to ask anything of him, I just want to tell him how I feel. Just so that he knows. I trust him to do the right thing.

@ravenmum

So you want him to say either yes, he does love you, or no, he doesn't love you - and if it's the latter then you hope he'll break it to you gently? What if he thinks you're a great person, and would like to be with you forever ideally if possible, but like my bf gave up on the whole notion of love decades ago? Would you drop him, do you think? Or would it be enough if he just agreed that you are a couple?

I don't know!

Right at this moment, I would say, yes, you're right in your summation of what I want.

As for whether that would be enough...

I've never being in a loving relationship. I've never been loved. Sometimes I think that the experience of being loved is what I want but if he said that I'm great and wants to be with me, a couple, but without having to declare love etc then my thoughts would be a) great, I can cope with that - it's essentially what we have now; b) would that leave him open to unexpectedly 'falling in love' with someone else down the line or looking for it?; c) I'd be giving up on the chance of being 'loved'. But the likelihood of that is slim...

As it stands, he's quite affectionate with me at times. Caring in the way he speaks generally. I know he worries about being hurt in relationships. I don't know if he cares about me enough to fear being hurt by me or whether he's choosing me precisely because he couldn't be hurt by me. He's physically more affectionate when others are around. Not in a 'performative' way more in a 'you and me are with this lot but we are still youandme ' sort of way. If that makes sense. He'll put his arm around me, stand very close to me, engage in longer eye contact from a distance etc. We spend time together with his and my friends. To my knowledge, he isn't actively 'looking' for anyone else and previously said that isn't really his style. But neither has he asked if I am.

Sorry for the ramble. I'm processing as i go!

I think that less conventional relationships require a bit of jiggling about before you find a stable position.

But perhaps you could try and work out why exactly you broke up with him before - whether there was any aspect of self-sabotage due to your personal background and fears, if that's been an ongoing thing. Pragmatism is a form of self-protection. What are you protecting yourself against? What else does that barrier keep out?
Maybe it's time to have a good think/read or even get some professional insights and move past that "I'm bad at relationships" shit?

Funny you mentioned him not staying over as he was mindful about your kids. Mine was too, kids knew him as we were colleagues, but it was about a year before he even stayed over when they were there. Again he sounds great.

I think knowing what you want to achieve before sending your letter is really important to identify before you send it actually.

If it's to let him know you love him, regret previously ending it, want him to know you're sticking around and won't hurt him, etc If he places importance on actions not words, I suggest you sending words to him without linking them to actions (past, current or present) may just baffle him.

Mine didn't understand why I wanted to say Iove you, as it was just words and 'why do you need to analyse stuff, we're fine, words mean nothing'. He also needed to have a long history with me before he could allow himself to commit. I thought it was because he was unemotional and a bit cold if I'm honest. Now I believe it's because he actually feels things very deeply and emotions overwhelm him. He appears to be quite flat emotionally but when I called him out for 'not doing love' once, he was deeply hurt by me judging him negatively. Took ages to repair damage done. Have a search for my thread on this topic.
Wish I hadn't dealt with it as I did with hindsight.