DH rages

[ASpoolofBlueThread]

Looking for a bit of a handhold...

DH has quite a volatile temper. I'm confident he wouldn't physically hurt me or DS12, but he flies off into rages and they are quite scary.

He went out this morning to get DS cash for school trip. He came back and told me the cash machine was out of order, then suddenly got in a rage and stormed back down the hall and I had to move myself and DS quickly out of the way as I was a bit scared. It became clear he thought he'd left his cash card in the machine.

He then found the money in the kitchen and I (stupidly) asked how he'd got it if the cash machine was broken. He started yelling that it was cash back, so I just grabbed the money and packed lunch and backed out of the kitchen leaving him to yell.

I went to the front room and watched for DS12's ride. DH calmed down and came and watched with me. He put his hand on my back which I really didn't want him to do but didn't want to cause a row. I was quite terse and quiet. DS12 said to me "shall we just put this behind us" so I felt bad he'd been exposed to this incident and my poor handling of it.

DH sort of apologised, saying he was sorry for his poor behaviour but it wasn't directed at us. I explained it was scary behaviour. I've now driven to the local supermarket as I need more cash and am currently sat in the car typing this. I'd really love to be in the office today but you still have to book in advance. I have calls starting at 9am so I need to go home, but I just need some space.

For context, DH doesn't go off like this all the time, but it's not uncommon, usually when tired or hungry. I know it sounds like a storm in a teacup, but it is scary. Not sure what I'm looking for beyond a hand hold and maybe some gentle advice?

My dad was like your husband and it has affected ALL my adult relationships. I'm 48!

Please get yourself and your son out of this. Your son is already normalising this behaviour. Please show him that this isn't okay.

He’s had a massive tantrum OP.
Hot, tired, hungry, pissed off with himself (for possibly leaving card behind), pissed off at the cash machine for being broken and the inconvenience it caused.
It sounds like he’s sounding off - at the world.

Trouble is, he’s a grown man and is reacting in a way that feels intimidating to you.

You need to tell him that even when his anger is not directed at you, it feels that way and more.
He needs to find another way of expressing his feelings so that it is clear to those around him that they are not being targeted or blamed for something entirely unrelated to them.

He needs to learn to talk properly and tell you what is frustrating him.

EDIT
‘Trouble is, he’s a grown man and is reacting in a way that IS intimidating to you.’

This is why anger management therapy exists OP.

I once watched a man going round Sainsburys with two young children , screaming and threatening the little boy (8) because hed pushed his sister a little . This went on for ages , a woman went to intervene and was warned off ...the abuse escalated and the man nearly hit the terrified boy and screamed at him "Look what youve made me do " , the classic abusers line..
ten years on Im still ashamed I didnt do anything ..I often think of those poor children .

@joystir59

You cannot see this situation clearly as you've been in it your whole adult life, but my father was like your DH and it it affected all of us massively.

I agree. I've had therapy which has made me realise that my childhood with an angry, raging shouty father has affected my whole life. I left home 38 years ago!

OP I mean this kindly but you really do need to wake up fast for the sake of your poor DS

This IS affecting him

Your husband IS abusive

He WILL NOT change - he doesn't see anything wrong in his behaviour

‘You missed your chance’ shows exactly how sorry he really is. If he realised the damage he is causing and is genuinely sorry, he will work through it with you at your pace with genuine remorse. He isn’t sorry - he still thinks he has a right to project his fury onto those who love him most. To scare and intimidate them.

'I'll just leave you then'.

That would be enough to end it for me.
Presuming he'd not take DS with him, the fact he can throw in the towel so quickly on you both when challenged would confirm what a dreadful father and husband he is.

Hi OP he is abusive and you are minimising the psychological impact it’s having on your son and yourself.
You are both in fear.
He does not do this with anyone else. Actually he makes a choice not to do this with anyone else.
If you don’t “shut up” and “stop going on about it”:- he will get angry - his comment - “ you missed your chance”is telling.
He is not sorry - he takes no responsibility for this - he’s not concerned re your feelings or his sons.
My ex was sent on an Alternative to Violence course - through the courts.
It’s not just for people who hit others - it’s for anyone with the issues like yours house - he throws things - you are fearful. Repeat - you are fearful.
Look up what fear does to the body.
I would tell him he needs to do something about his issues or you will be reconsidering the relationship. See what he chooses to do.
He really just wants you to shut up!!!
Protect yourself and your son.
Antilla speaks wise words.
💐

Phoning your works counseling line is a good idea. I think you'll probably find it helpful to talk it through with someone who is trained to help you explore this.

The responses he’s making when you challenge him about his behaviour sound very much like the responses of someone addicted but not ready to face it. Excuses. Minimising. Denying the validity of your feelings. You seem to find his stone-walling has a paralysing effect, which is understandable.

When things are calmer, and I would suggest, when it’s a safer situation ie you could easily walk away if he gets aggressive, you could explain to him the impact of his behaviour on you and your son. It’s abusive regardless of whether he sees it that way and regardless of whether he is angry ‘at’ you or not. Just as it would be abusive if he got drunk every night and blacked out on the floor. The point is, he’s making you deal with his problem.

You could seek counselling for yourself in order to explore what you want to do next and to give you a space to reflect where you won’t be shouted down.

It doesn't matter what he thinks, it's what you feel. There are many laws where you don't have to have directly set out to hurt someone but you are still considered responsible for damage or hurt caused and go to prison, dangerous driving, speeding etc.

Some abusers are sadistic and anti-social. Some abusers are just men who have no ability to deal with the own shame and any slight however small is met with rage (humiliated fury) and they will square up to you like a school bully to make sure you eat your words. Abusers (for the most part) are human, they are rational, they choose to make the families suffer. They chose to be ignorant of the consequences of their actions. They hide behind closed doors because they know it's wrong and if someone outside the house found out they might have to change his behaviour, hence why you better be afraid to tell anyone else too.

We expect women to use their words when they are in distress and then infantilise men into communicating through anger and rage. Its not acceptable, whether there is a trauma background or not. If he was truly 'unmasking' he would be confiding in you his emotions, his worries, his concerns, he would be asking for help navigating life. Instead he his abusing you and your son which he feels entitled to do. If that entitlement remains (which it will) there is very little hope of any meaningful change.

You are at the beginning of what will turn out to be a long and painful journey. It is clear that as you have only ever known this life, with him, your unconscious fears of living without him are making you deny the awful truth about what your relationship is doing to your son (and you). You can't know what you don't, I appreciate that. So as a start to facing the reality here, educate yourself on what damage it does to young people to grow up in a household where they feel responsible for their parents getting along. Read up. Go to therapy. Talk to women's aid and the NSPCC. At least do something.

OP...don't fall for the LTB Mumsnet trap. There's work to be done. I've got experience of someone that raged like this and it has worked out wonderfully. I drew my boundaries, we nearly broke up, realisations were made and she agreed to seek help. It's helped her immeasurably and our relationship is thriving.

It takes them to hit rock bottom and take accountability for their behaviour and not make excuses.

But still, be ready to leave if they don't try to find help.

OP, read what you have written. Everything you’ve told us is about his poor behaviour. It’s not a one off. You have to remove your son from the situation just in case …!!! Your son is trying to defuse things. You are walking on eggshells. Your H refuses to acknowledge that anything is wrong.

This really isn’t ok. It’s all about him, isn’t it! He thinks you are over reacting, that you should just forgive and forget. But he has been like this a long time. You really don’t have to put up with this.

Have you talked to an6 of your family or friends about this? perhaps they can help you see that this isn’t acceptable behaviour in a healthy relationship.

Stick with him then. Allow him to carry on like this. See it as not abuse.

@BasicDad

OP...don't fall for the LTB Mumsnet trap. There's work to be done. I've got experience of someone that raged like this and it has worked out wonderfully. I drew my boundaries, we nearly broke up, realisations were made and she agreed to seek help. It's helped her immeasurably and our relationship is thriving.

It takes them to hit rock bottom and take accountability for their behaviour and not make excuses.

But still, be ready to leave if they don't try to find help.

Fine if it s just op and her dh Do what you like

But there is a 12 Yr old who thinks he has to protect his mother from the dh

I haven't RTFT but suggest (if he is interested in addressing the problem) he watches about the STOPP technique.

BasicdDad are you talking about being in a relationship where your kid had to manage their mum's explosions?

I've read the book below (quick reader) and I'm still genuinely not convinced he's abusive.
I think he just gets angry a lot. The book explains this is possible. That's not to excuse the behaviour, just that it is separate. Not sure what my next move is, need to go home soon, maybe phone work's counselling service?

Your next move is to admit to yourself that you were scared and moved yourself and DS out of your husband's way when he stormed down the hall. You need to also admit to yourself that you backed out of the kitchen with the cash, and you need to ask yourself why you said in your opening post 'I (stupidly) asked how he'd got it if the cash machine was broken'. Why 'stupidly'? Do you blame yourself for setting him off? Do you sometimes seek to pour oil on troubled waters here, to avoid poking the bear, to control situations in order to avoid rages?

At the moment when you moved your child and yourself out of the way, did you feel that he would have barged right into you or stood there angrily roaring at you if you hadn't moved?
What feeling or sense made you move out of the way?

You also need to analyse these conversations:
DH: are you still not talking to me?
Me: I'm not not talking to you
Why did you say that?
Why were you dancing around the issue?

DH: did you see my texts?
Me: yes (thinks of something sensible to respond with and fails)
DH: (huffily) well I'll just leave you then.
Why dance around the issue?
If you were to say 'Talk is cheap', or 'Too little, too late', what would he say or do?

In this exchange I suggest you were afraid to tell him what was actually on your mind because you were in your own office. Were you afraid he would trash it? Were you seeking to gauge and/or control the level of anger by being neutral?

In his office:
Me: you've got to understand I'm still quite angry, you wouldn't act that way with your friends
DH: yes I would, anyway I don't want to talk about it, you missed your chance
In other words, 'You may be right but I absolutely refuse to talk about it or do anything about it, so shutup.'

Me: that's a bit controlling, you need to recognise it's not ok to behave like that. It's scary,
You finally almost got to the point.
But you didn't use an I statement: 'I felt scared'.
Why use the neutral 'It's scary'?
You used the unassertive phrase 'a bit controlling'. Why?
I sense you are afraid to confront him.
Why?

Now he presses home his advantage:
DH: why, what did you think I would do to you? None of it was directed at you
This tells you he has no intention of admitting his behaviour is a problem. This is your husband shutting you down. He is telling you that his loud and very visible rage and complete physical domination of the space is acceptable and it's going to continue.

Me: errrrrr, can't say I really had time to think about it
You backed down here.
This was a weak response. You responded weakly because you knew you were getting nowhere and perhaps because you are afraid of him.

A much better answer would be, 'I'm sorry you feel that way.'
This tells him he is not off the hook.
It tells him that you know there is a history to his behaviour and that you fully expect more of the same.
It tells him that his attitude is a problem.
Practice saying 'I'm sorry you feel that way'.
Maybe respond to his texts with the phrase.

I assume you left his office, leaving him in his own space. He retained the position of power in the second half of the exchange through his verbal offence, and he disrespected your office in the first half, by negating what you were saying about the effect of his behaviour in your own space. What I see here is that your husband likes to dominate you and has no intention of stopping. Hence the stony silence when you told him he had a problem with anger.

You do realise, by the way, that he doesn't have a problem with anger?
He has a problem with your anger.
He has a huge problem with entitlement. Your optimism that he will reflect on what he has done is misplaced.

I urge you to read the Lundy Bancroft book mentioned upthread from cover to cover. There are 432 pages in the book version. You need to read them all.

What would happen if you were to tell him that his loud and visible rage inside your home is not something private, if you were to state that it is categorically not something he would do at work or among his friends or colleagues, and that he needs to come up with a way to deal with life's little frustrations that doesn't involve scaring the shit out of his wife and son. When he responds with gaslighting or anger, tell him you are sorry he feels that way.

You need to print out this thread and bring it to a counselor.
You need to find a counselor for your son. The damage being done here is immense.

Find someone who specialises in trauma for you both.

Hi OP, I'm so sorry you're in this situation. I'm curious as to why you have never spoken to your son about your husband's behaviour? Have you ever asked him if he feels scared by his dad's rages, or if he would like anything to be different at home? Perhaps having this conversation would you help you with your decision making.

As well as being physically and verbally agressive, he is gaslighting you too.

This is an abusive relationship OP, and perhaps you are now beginning to open your eyes to it.

He sounds very immature.

Would you feel comfortable having a conversation that it’s irresponsible and unacceptable to be acting that angry in front of your son? Because sooner or later your son might pick up on that!!

Your husband needs a reality check, he sounds like a bully.

This is why anger management therapy exists OP.

Anger management is often used to describe what is actually entitled, abusive, dominating behaviour.

The vast majority of men with "anger"problems don't indulge them with people who could harm.them in some way (financially, physically) but only with those who are attached abd dependant on them.

They won't change because to some extent they enjoy it abd they feel entitled to it.