How do I accept this?

[MidnightSilence]

How do I accept that I'm not attractive?

I don't mean physically. Physically, I think I'm OK.

Just generally.

I'm angry with myself for it.

I've put it in relationships because it affects my relationships. Or it would if I had them.

I am very much like you so you are not alone. I used to be very warm and giving, perhaps too much, but after the same as you are saying I have become pretty avoidant. I do think, however, if you have been seeing the guy you are seeing for a year and never had the conversation then how can you know he too is nor being guarded as thinks you don't want a relationship. And maybe you don't, with him but if you do with him maybe broach it. If you don't with him but want with someone else then move on. I don't know how one becomes less guarded though after so many let downs, I feel I am very much like that and it is a self fulfilling prophecy as the other party follows suit. One would like someone to care enough to push that barrier down but I think that only happens in films! Not at all jaded and cynical here!

There isn't better for me around the corner. I'm not going to meet someone who will fall in love with me for who I am.

I'm sure you will @MidnightSilence . Most people do. And as you get older looks become less of a big deal. It's a dickhead filter; men that are only interested in the physical/sleaze are less likely to get involved. Men see us more as people (I like to think so, anyway.)

Even gorgeoous people have problems.

I think you would feel happier if you binned men that made you feel this way, more often.

And maybe you're a bit depressed You seem quite down on yourself.

One would like someone to care enough to push that barrier down but I think that only happens in films!

Interesting comment.

Maybe I'd just like to meet someone who thought I was worth the effort.

But why isn't that 'I'd like to meet someone who I thought was worth the effort'?

I'm thinking something along the lines of 'You get what you pay for', or 'You only get out what you put in.'

You are currently perpetuating a relationship you feel half cocked about. If you're willing to do that, you'll get takers who feel half cocked about you. And that's what you keep getting. Is it like a mirror thing?

If you could hold yourself in high esteem, maybe that would be reflected? And if that didn't work, you wouldn't be too concerned about a relationship anyway, because people with high self esteem don't get low and blame themselves when life throws them lemons as boyfriends.

Sorry OP, I really feel for you reading your thread. It seems to me that you have just had rotten luck with partners who have not been worth your time, let you down and eroded your sense of self worth over the years. Then it gets to this point where you feel so down on yourself (worn down) that you can’t imagine anyone will love you ever, for you. Please don’t believe that. Sounds to me like you need to cut this one loose, take some time out to learn to like yourself again and enjoy your own company, accept yourself and focus on the great things about you, be kind to yourself 💐 You are wonderfully unique, there is only one of you in the whole world! It sounds like you have plenty of good things to offer in relationship but need some head & heart healing first or you will carry your expectation of rejection into the next relationship. Do you have any good friends or family around you who could help buck your confidence a bit?

I think the modern culture of disposable dating really doesn’t help at all, I think this widespread disposable mindset ( especially due to online dating) has shifted how people engage and commit and sadly treat each other ( aka pretty badly) no matter how ‘attractive’ someone might be gauged the other party probably keeps one eye out for other opportunities out there so it must be so hard for anyone feel good enough in a dating culture like this (what this gauge is I have no idea as there as so many different things that make people beautiful and unique without being ‘film star’ attractive imo). Is there any hobby or activity that makes you feel really happy? Outside the dating world?

I do have hobbies and friends but none I'm particularly close to. I can go for weeks and not speak to anyone else. When I do, it's because I've made the first contact.

What makes things harder at the moment is that he and I have a similar hobby. I've been to see him do his (its performance based) several times but I've not let him come to see me do mine for a few reasons.

He did say to me once that it made him feel that i was keeping him at a distance so, when he asked if he could come and see this time, I said yes. He wants to come to see me, wants to be supportive and also feels that its me letting him into my life a bit.

If he loved me etc, I'd have no problem letting him come. I'd imagine it's quite nice to know that there's someone watching you who is proud of you and loves you. Someone who's quietly cheering you on. But that's not how it feels. It feels like I'd be exposing myself and making myself vulnerable in front of someone who doesn't love me and who might be embarrassed by me if I make mistake.

I've done this hobby in one guise or another my whole life and this would be the first time that there was anyone in the audience/crowd who was there to see and support me. I want to tell him not to come but that would end things I think.

I think the modern culture of disposable dating really doesn’t help at all

I agree but this situation pre dates the Internet; predates dating sites and social media. It was no different then. It was no different when i was a teenager or in my twenties when everyone is attractive and people fall in love so easily.

I do feel self conscious and inadequate at times nowadays. Not all the time - sometimes i feel attractive and desirable but it doesn't really make any difference either way. I might get asked out more when I'm feeling really good about myself but it doesn't change anything.

I'm sure you will@MidnightSilence. Most people do.

That's the point though. Most people do but I haven't.

This guy sounds like he is trying to get you to let him in OP but you've already written him off. You're going round in circles. Can you take a leap of faith?

I have a very different past from you but counselling did show me that I basically assume men will leave so I don't let them in. Just understanding that helped my behaviour and attitude, so I broke through my own vicious circle. Have you tried counselling?

I have met a lot of men in my life who were far too quick to share opinions on the way women looked etc, often me, but not always. I had a conversation with a wise woman who said that most sensible men and women had enough smarts to not openly express these opinions, or most marriages/relationships would not survive. I'm sure my DH would prefer it if I was a 6' supermodel. He could stand to shift a few stone himself. We don't have conversations about this. We are a chunk older than you, and we don't go out of our way to hurt each other.

Have you ever come across the idea of the Shark Cage Theory OP? Made a lot of sense to me. I moved on from people, eventually, who made me feel 'less than'. When I did it last I was older than you.

I really want to hug you.

I think this goes way back to your childhood. I would be unsurprised to find you didn't have either any relationship with your Dad or a poor one.

It realky isn't your looks or your personality as us, it goes deeper than that. You really would get a lot out of finding the right therapist to help you x

I didn't have a relationshipnwith my dad, no. He was there physically but not emotionally. I don't have contact with my mum anymore. I think a lot of this comes from her tbh.

This guy sounds like he is trying to get you to let him in OP but you've already written him off. You're going round in circles. Can you take a leap of faith?

Maybe. I don't know. I don't know if a leap of faith is appropriate. Letting him come along to my thing is a massive leap of faith though. Its the first time I've performed in over a year because of lockdown and, if I'm honest, I'm dreading it anyway.

He started a new job yesterday - very stressful for him and he phoned this evening. At the end of the call, he said it had been really nice to speak to me and then mumbled a justification about how it had just been nice to speak to a person he didn't work with 🤷🏻‍♀️

I have heard of the shark cage theory but I worry rather if I followed it stringently then I'd have no one in my life. I'm aware of how pathetic that sounds.

He started a new job yesterday - very stressful for him and he phoned this evening. At the end of the call, he said it had been really nice to speak to me and then mumbled a justification about how it had just been nice to speak to a person he didn't work with

I have no idea whether that is his insecurities or because he didn't want to give me the wrong impression.

I haven't read it no, but I'm aware of it. I don't chase him though. Or anyone.

It can just be bad luck OP. I look at people's relationship histories and there are plenty of needy insecure less than perfect personalities who are overweight with crooked teeth and they have always had a partner since a young age and move from relationship to relationship.

I think sadly you have just had bad luck. There are plenty of people in simile positions to you but I know that's cold comfort. Please don't think this is a reflection on you and you aren't worthy of love.

If you are being really guarded, then your partner will be guarded back and will not want to open up emotionally. He sounds really nice to me. I think you need to be brave, let down your barriers, be more openly loving towards him and see what happens. It sounds like you're being quite cold emotionally. It's a two way thing. You might be surprised by the response. He might be very concerned about the perceived lack of commitment on your part

From all of your updates op it really sounds as though you had one or two unpleasant experiences early on (and that's the case for most of us) and then have put up a barrier. You expect them to fall in love with you before you will allow yourself to fall in love with them. He wants to support you in your hobby but you won't let him. You say it's obvious you find someone attractive or you wouldn't be dating them, but when someone dates you you don't apply the same logic. You anticipate at what point they are going to let you down and then you dump them. I wonder how many people you have dumped who would have turned in to good relationships?

There appears to be self-fulfilling prophecy at play here, in buckets. You have decided that you aren't enough, and you're waiting for signs / evidence that's the case. Then you dump.

Early on you said it isn't all about looks, and then every example was about looks. Being gorgeous does not guarantee good relationships. Being average looking does not mean you have less chance of good relationships. At worst he sounds insensitive to keep going on about the gorgeous friend, but perhaps he sees in her something beyond the obvious good looks - it's someone who is comfortable in her skin. I think maybe you could work on being more comfortable with who you are.

And I speak for the short and pale people here.... I have seen no evidence that tall tanned people are happier in relationships or life! And I would always go for cute over beautiful

Recently l was staying in a hotel where couples were coming to book their weddings. They would sit outside, have lunch and chat to manager. I was people watching and it was so interesting to see the various couples. There is absolutely no way of knowing how they were attracted to each other. Very pretty girls with very ordinary guys and vice versa...there was not one couple l would have put together if they were all in a line up.
What l am trying to say is there is no way of knowing what that attraction bit is.

Go for counselling as it will help you process some issues you obviously have had with your family of origin. It will you space to process your thought patterns and you will find yourself more confident and self assured.

I did have one or two bad experiences early on but then they just kept on coming. It's only been in the last 4 or 5 years that I started to realise it wasn't getting any better.

Before that, I was quite happy to dump and move on assuming there would be better around the corner. There wasn't. It's only been in these past few years that I've started to realise that it's me and not just that I've been unlucky. I'm the common denominator.

I haven't dumped men I could have had good relationships with. I've always been the 'good enough for now' girlfriend but it took me years to realise that was even a thing so I wasn't intentionally choosing them.

At worst he sounds insensitive to keep going on about the gorgeous friend, but perhaps he sees in her something beyond the obvious good looks

No, I think it's pretty much that. He hangs on her every word, tries to get her attention in conversation, laughs at her jokes, is like a bright eyed puppy around her. She can do no wrong. It wouldn't matter what she did! Her jokes aren't any funnier than anyone else's, her conversation no more scintillating. Inside the perfect exterior, she's no different to anyone else. But that doesn't matter because the perfect exterior is what is wanted.

Tbh, I know he finds one of my friends attractive too but not on the same level - I think he sees her as cute and adorable rather than beautiful and sexy. I can tell the difference in the way he is around her and my other friends. She is utterly adorable and probably more similar to me but she is tiny and has long blonde hair. He's never been the way he is with either of them around me.

I suppose that's what I see. That admiration, adoration, appreciation etc. In fact no one has ever been around me the way he is with them.

And I know I'm not imagining it because he clearly isn't attracted to the one friend of mine I thought he would be.

At least with him it's obvious. He isn't saying one thing and doing something else.

OP, why not tell this man that you are anxious about him watching you perform your hobby, that you are afraid of failing in front of him? Explain this is the reason you have been keeping him at arm’s length.
I think you have been giving out all the wrong messages to him - he must be seeing you as someone who doesn’t feel much towards him, who keeps distance, who won’t let herself be emotionally open or vulnerable with him, who doesn’t trust him.
No wonder he feels he has to play it cool too!
Maybe it’s time to risk opening up, having an emotionally honest conversation with him?
And as PPs have suggested, you could benefit hugely from counselling, to explore your childhood relationships (or non relationship) with your parents, your insecurities and avoidance, your self perception, etc etc.
It is not too late - you can change even the most entrenched behaviour and attitudes and have a happier future. Good luck.

I am aware that I am sometimes distant with him. He probably perceives me as being quite hot and cold. I can be quite warm and affectionate but, when I'm feeling insecure or inadequate, I do withdraw. I'm not unpleasant or sullen, just quiet. I'm more reactive than proactive in conversations, I don't really participate because I worry that he or others will think I have nothing of value to say. I hate being asked questions in group situations because everyone looks at you for your response and it makes me hugely uncomfortable. I'd rather go unnoticed. I appreciate that is often just efforts on behalf of others to include me and not an attempt to humiliate me! But that's how I feel. I even hate being asked what bands I like, what films I like etc because of the perceived judgement.

We did have a conversation about it once but I came away not really feeling confident that he understood the depth of my feelings about this. He wants to take me out on Saturday night for cocktails. I have no idea what to wear so I'm going to agonise about that between now and then and then feel uncomfortable all night because I'll be surrounded by women who look much more attractive than I do. I'll feel like I've let him down and embarrassed for him.

I worry about him, or anyone, feeling ashamed to be seen with me.

If I'm going put for the evening, I put all my efforts in getting ready into making sure my skin is nice, my feet are smooth and doing face masks etc. I don't do much with my hair or make up because I just feel conspicuous and I'd rather people thought I looked natural than as though I'd made an effort and it wasn't worth it.

I can look at myself in the mirror and think I look nice but then I feel self conscious and unattractive as soon as we are together. But that's not just him, that's with everyone. I always think my friends look beautiful because they always seem to get it right and i feel like I don't.

The ridiculous thing is that I think I look OK. Its the fear I have of what other people think or feel about it that worries me.

He's talked about a night out with this couple or inviting them round to his for the evening.

I would never try and stop him from doing that but i really don't want to be there to see it playing out in front of me.

I'm not jealous of her, I don't dislike her, but I do feel awkward and uncomfortable with them because of the way he is around her. And if it's obvious to me it's be obvious to them and everyone else. But then I just think they'll look at me and think it's hardly surprising.

I couldn't say any of this to him though.

But it's difficult because I think I look OK. If I'm going out with my girlfriends or on my own, I never worry in the same way and aways feel quite confident.

You sound like you've got yourself in a right old mess OP. Look, you've got a man here who's been with you for a year, who wants to get involved in your life, take you out, be with you. Unless all you have is a FWB situation (and it sounds like that's not the case at all), then why would he waste his time if he didn't really like you? Men can't be bothered with that crap. There's no way he'd take you out if he was embarrassed about the way you looked. And yes there will be other women who are better looking than you, so what! Doesn't mean that they are better, nicer people, it doesn't mean you're not good enough. Stop focusing on them, and focus on you, the positive things about you.
You're making yourself the 'short term prospect' by not giving anything more meaningful back, as others have said, its a self fulfilling prophecy. If you don't open up, show your partner your vulnerabities, take a risk then why should he do the same? It's not a man's job to declare they would walk across hot coals for you any more than its your job. Give a little more and see what the outcome is... I mean what's the worst that can happen, you've already decided he's not in it for the long term so you've got nothing to lose.